Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

What tragic event. This I can't imagine where I live ,cops do use brute force but never when someone's armed with a knife. you can tell that the scary small fat bad cop who I think started the shooting was often beaten by his mother and locked in the closet, because he touched his Willy to much..

double post

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


Hmmm. So there's no way they could have brought him down non-lethally? How about a taser?

Why couldn't they have used a taser to bring him down? Your the same kind of filth and pestilence that's running like a cancer in this country, right along with these sociopathic cops.

And look at all the stars this comment received! What the hell is wrong with you people?

This comment reminds me of comments in Liveleak where there's an Apache gunship mission and a bunch of comments about killing "sandnigge#$'s" and a bunch of other crap, this whole desensitization of your fellow human being.

The only conclusion I can come up with is that you are a very scared 14 year old boy who knows nothing of the real world and plays too many video games. No adult would be this stupid to justify this poor guy's death.

Pathetic.

According to the TO Star there was only one cop shooter, with 22 police witnesses, plus civilians and the street car driver. Investigation is expected to take at least a month. Chief of police doesn't feel the situation went down as it ought to have and has expressed grave concern.

The trigger happy cop didn't even shoot to wound or incapacitate, but only to kill, so it was a murderous intent and he ought to be charged with 2nd degree murder and may very well be.

reply to post by Skjord

Yeah 15 stars he got for that crap...

No one is suggesting that the kid be "forgiven", only taken into custody, and charged, tried, and given some jail time and maybe counselling to nip this kind of behavior in the bud.

That poster's style and approach is what's wrong with the world these days, along with each and everyone who gave his post a star.

So sad and pathetic, and disgraceful.

DynaMike:

Speaking from experience, they should have used less-lethal munitions. I have deployed the bean bag on knife wielders several times and it is completely effective. We also have flash bangs and tear gas as an option. The TASER would be a last resort as it has a 15-21 foot reach and is highly inaccurate and ineffective if both probes do not connect for reasons such as clothing or a miss etc.

Well I anticipate the shooters either get fired or a huge suspension. They really need to train these guys before letting them loose on the streets. They make good cops look bad.

Commendable post, Mike, more for its last sentence (highlighted) than anything other that it states. If you had used the word 'tactics' rather than 'munitions', you would have heard the applause I'd have given you all the way across the thousands of miles that separate our countries.

With your brief post (and I can be corrected in this) you hit upon one of the most important reasons for the creation of the forum 'Posse Comitatus'. Your last sentence highlights the schism between your profession and that of the general public...namely perception, and incidents like this that show an apparent disregard to achieving a non-lethal resolution to the situation, only serves to compound and widen that schism even further. You as a cop, and I as member of the general public have to be equally concerned at this incident's outcome. Not just this incident, but all incidents like it.

Everyone knows that the job a cop does is a difficult one, and I believe that a cop's perception of being under-appreciated by the general public is a qualified gripe. Donning a police uniform doesn't automatically entitle anyone to instant respect, and equally, it doesn't entitle them to instant disrespect, either.

For a cop, in a non-lethal situation, there must be nothing more aggravating than having to deal with a belligerent member of public whom has instantly turned into a UN lawyer of Human Rights. At the same time, there can be no more frustrating situation for a member of public whom is being dealt with by a cop in an extremely forthright and bullish manner. Don't cops realise that every member of public has a side to their story, and they want to tell it, so that they are not perceived as being culpable to any misdemeanour...even if they know in themselves they are. It would be quite comical if the potential for a serious situation to develop didn't ever shadow the encounter.

It is a fact that cops close ranks to protect a colleague, and this, whether justified or not, is perceived by the general public to be wrong, and is treated with suspicion. Openness and transparency is the key (politicians are you reading?). Cops are human, and they make human mistakes, but when they make one with a gun, the consequences can be devastating for all concerned. The Police Federation often act like the member of public whom doesn't want to be perceived as culpable to blame. Under no circumstances is it to be publicly admitted to a culpability of error or wrong-doing, because it would be damaging to the profession's reputation. Yet, admittance to culpability would probably be its greatest repair in the eyes of the public, and would go a long way in narrowing the schism.

The police really do have to police themselves in an open and transparent way so that the public can feel a genuine confidence and trust in their presence. Any cop could be the most affable and genuinely compassionate human being on the planet, but the uniform he or she is wearing, and the reputation that shrouds it, is currently very intimidating. For some cops, by some twisted logic or narcissistic bent, they might believe it aids them in doing the job...it doesn't, it compounds its complexity, and actually makes it more difficult to interact.

Incidents like this serve to put both the general public and the police as a whole on notice as an appeal for essential and necessary dialogue to take place so that both sides get to tell their stories, and to air their gripes. That way, we can work through the misperception which currently negates any hope of respect from either side. Best wishes.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
According to the TO Star there was only one cop shooter, with 22 police witnesses, plus civilians and the street car driver. Investigation is expected to take at least a month. Chief of police doesn't feel the situation went down as it ought to have and has expressed grave concern.

The trigger happy cop didn't even shoot to wound or incapacitate, but only to kill, so it was a murderous intent and he ought to be charged with 2nd degree murder and may very well be.

Supposedly the kid's last words to the cops were "You guys are a bunch of pussies".

Then 9 shots and a taser. The taser was probably just so they can say they "used" the taser. Just in the wrong order.

reply to post by Dragoon01


You say you are a student of self-defence, but can I ask you how many times you've had to defend yourself without the convenience of a weapon?

And I don't mean in a gym in some kind of drill, or in a ring with a referee - I'm talking about on the streets, where there was just you and your eye of the tiger preventing you getting a serious ass-whupping.

I know MY capabilities in such situations... do you know yours?

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Hefficide
I do not need to know that nor even wonder about it. I do know that his forward momentum, IE the imminent "threat" people seem to be clinging to was removed. He was no longer walking towards a cop.

Or he could have simply “hit the deck” when the officers opened up on him.

Originally posted by Hefficide
Dear God do I really live in a world where I am arguing this point??? That I am having to say that a guy was not walking towards a cop - therefore the last six shots were unnecessary?

And what I am saying is that you can tell exactly jack crap from that video, all you can do is speculate. It can be difficult for an officer to tell if the man is alive, wounded, or just fell prone from feet way, looking between seats on a bus, in the dark.

and by "hitting the deck" (IF that is what happened), how much more or less of a threat was he? lets see, that puts him laying on the floor armed with a THREE INCH knife and he is a DANGER? he can't "charge" the officers without first getting up. actually if he "dropped and went prone" could not that be a sign of surrender? or even if it wasn't it would have been a good time to have a couple officers restrain him, after all it's hard to attack and do damage with a puny 3 inch knife, especially if he was face down.

I think that most officers, if they felt their actions were unjustified, would not have taken it to that point with the public standing behind them filming.

and when has THAT stopped police brutality before? besides i bet these cops were so hopped up on adrenalin they didn't even THINK about that.

Originally posted by defcon5
So am I to understand that we have crossed the Rubicon and the assumption of innocence no longer applies? That the appearance or opinion of guilt is enough for law enforcement to arbitrarily levy a summary on sight execution?

I believe this was “suicide by cop”, plain and simple.

so the guy is down and they apparently felt the need to "finish him off" and so opened fire again? and THEN taze him? almost seems there were trying to be sure he was dead to me. a "tazer" is a "nonlethal weapon" supposedly but it can and does kill. so they taze someone who is injured quite possibly seriously (which would mean he has already lost some of his body's "fighting for life ability) and think it won't finish him off? yeah ok makes perfect sense (NOT).

nothing says "suicide" like cops pumping bullets than tazeing, someone who is prone and likely injured. did he quite literally ASK THEM TO KILL HIM? if so then the cops are STILL GUILTY of "assisting a suicide".

Just my two cents...

First off the dude has a knife and is not listening to verbal commands. Your not going to move in close to this offender while he poses a serious threat to Officer and public safety.

Secondly - the number of shots...bottom line if your pulling that trigger you do not shoot to wound. You shoot to kill. Police are not trained to fire a single shot. When you fire your service weapon, you empty the ENTIRE magazine.

Just because an officer has a taser doesn't mean he has to use it. There is still a danger trying to get close enough to use it. And quite often they're not effective. The offender has a deadly weapon and therefore Deadly Force is an acceptable outcome.

It was entirely the kids fault for the whole situation he was dangerous and not cooperative. If I put myself in the officers shoes. I would prolly shoot him as well. Things don't work like TV there are very dangerous and real risks in waiting for a negotiator and things like that. Your risking your own life and the the life of others if you do not take that shot.

I do believe he was a little quick to go to deadly force, but I do not fault the officer for making that choice. He made the best choice he could under a High stress situation for the safety of his own life, and others. This officer very well may have saved the life of his brothers, or even the public for that matter.

Originally posted by SilencerXXII

Secondly - the number of shots...bottom line if your pulling that trigger you do not shoot to wound. You shoot to kill. Police are not trained to fire a single shot. When you fire your service weapon, you empty the ENTIRE magazine.

Why are so many people accepting of this and OK with it???

This is absolutely one of the slipperiest slopes I can remember encountering in a very long time. Oh, sorry that cop just shot your grandmother 18 times... but he fired once... and you know... he's supposed to empty the clip and all.

Absolutely amazing.

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by Rocker2013

 

I stand corrected, a knife wielding man threatening people is never responsible for actions.

Who did he threaten? The people who he told to get off the streetcar?
or the guys outside the police car holding even more deadlier weapons?

There is no defending the police here.

If you do, it is a very slippery slope you are standing on.

Originally posted by Taggart

If you do, it is a very slippery slope you are standing on.

Exactly. Here in Canada we'll stick to hockey as far as slippery surfaces go thank you very much.

Notice how this story didn't appear anywhere in the US lamestream media..?

New police TRAINING is what's needed in aftermath of this incident both in Canada and in the "good 'ol USofA'.

No more police state.

Just smart phone video cameras everywhere. Oh the irony..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
According to the TO Star there was only one cop shooter, with 22 police witnesses, plus civilians and the street car driver. Investigation is expected to take at least a month. Chief of police doesn't feel the situation went down as it ought to have and has expressed grave concern.

The trigger happy cop didn't even shoot to wound or incapacitate, but only to kill, so it was a murderous intent and he ought to be charged with 2nd degree murder and may very well be.

Not trying to troll but since when do they teach cops to wound or incapacitate? They are taught to take out the threat. That means kill. So a cop should aim for a leg or arm and hope that stops the guy? What this cop did was beyond wrong but lets not start the, "murderous intent" thing. They are taught to shoot center of mass......that is not a wounding shot.

SilencerXXII:

I do believe he was a little quick to go to deadly force, but I do not fault the officer for making that choice. He made the best choice he could under a High stress situation for the safety of his own life, and others. This officer very well may have saved the life of his brothers, or even the public for that matter.

This has got to be the most naive perception I have had the misfortune to read. Your inability to appreciate the full consequence of the incident is quite breath-taking, and makes me hope you are no older than 12 years old, because if you've reached adulthood with such a low level of discernment I would despair into deep depression.

It's quite obvious you have skipped posts already on the thread for gaining a comprehensive appreciation of what elements of the incident members have found disconcerting.

I don't do drugs, but your post has me wanting to take up religion, because...there simply has to be a contingent cause for your existence?

reply to post by fenson76


You're right in a way, that's why I said it's all about Police TRAINING, period. Both in Canada and the US.

Why are so many people accepting of this and OK with it???

This is absolutely one of the slipperiest slopes I can remember encountering in a very long time. Oh, sorry that cop just shot your grandmother 18 times... but he fired once... and you know... he's supposed to empty the clip and all.

Absolutely amazing.

I understand your concern completely and its a very common concern...But what I am saying is this is standard practice for probably every law enforcement agency in the world. This has been in practice for more then the last 20 years and isn't something new. You can't fault the officer for doing what he is trained to do in the situation. Even with a suspect down, he can still use that knife, and you don't know what else the suspect may have on him. Maybe he does have a gun maybe even a grenade. As an officer you don't know, and can't take that chance. I know your probably laughing at that grenade part. But seriously it has happened...

For those that don't know Police are trained to follow the use of force continuum. It does vary slightly from dept to dept. But looking at the situation. You have an active resistor with a deadly weapon. Yes - the knife is considered a deadly weapon. Therefore police are legally authorized to use the same force or higher. Therefore warranting Deadly force by gun etc.

Originally posted by fenson76
Not trying to troll but since when do they teach cops to wound or incapacitate? They are taught to take out the threat. That means kill. So a cop should aim for a leg or arm and hope that stops the guy? What this cop did was beyond wrong but lets not start the, "murderous intent" thing. They are taught to shoot center of mass......that is not a wounding shot.

In this particular instance, what did the cop have to lose in aiming for his legs? Did he think the guy was going to throw his 3 inch penknife at him if he didn't put him down cleanly? Even if the kid was about to step into the street, there was no way he'd have reached the cop aiming at him before he was pounced on by other cops... if they were doing their job right.

ps. Here's how UK cops deal with someone with a real dangerous knife.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Problem is that guns were drawn and pointed, and it's a rather significant scaling down of force to re-holster them and then proceed to take the guy down with hand to hand combat, billy clubs wailing around in a furry of course. It's an issue of training, and procedure and policy.

If this was America the media would be in an uproar as this is obviously murder or the Police are Bi-Polar.

You don't use a taser after some has been shot. You use the taser first as a less than lethal method of subduing the person.

This is definitely murder because of the manner in which the level of force was used.