Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

reply to post by juniperberry


They did use a taser, only, they used it after they shot him.

THEY have to get it together.

If we do not engage n-o-w in defending OTHERS against excessive govt/police force, we will become victims of abuse OURSELVES one day, victims of our own indifference.

I think the the fact that the suspect ordered everyone off the streetcar leads one to believe that this "kid" wasn't really out to hurt anyone but himself. He did not harm anyone, nor did he take any hostages. The way I understand it, he was grabbing his junk with one hand (exposed) and brandished a knife with the other. It screams of some sort of intoxication or possibly, mental illness, maybe both (definetly both, as I feel ALL drug users are mentally impaired whether intoxicated or not).

I can clearly see both sides of the coin here. I have been shot once and threatened with guns on two other occasions in my lifetime. I was also subdued from behind with a knife at my throat another time. Its not a long story why I ended up in these types circumstances so many times; I was a street level drug user for many years. I am alive today because in each case I used forethought, NOT PANIC, to extricate myself. In each case, looking back, I can honestly say that panic would have cost me my life. And yes, cool words were a part of my escape.

I believe this officer panicked. Panic is one of those things that a person is either susceptible to or not. It has been stated in this thread and most probably true, that most LEO's are never involved in a shooting during their careers. If that is a fact, no one can say what an individual or LEO might do in a threatening situation. Even rigorous training can't determine real world reactions to situations where even the slightest hunch life or limb may be threatened. I was in a military situation once where I watched a "tough guy" completely freeze up when some pot shots were fired off in the distance. Heights cause me to practically freeze up, which started later in life, after airborne and air assault training in the army...go figure.

I believe this cop failed the real world test of his training. I can clearly see why he shot, and the 9 rounds, again-- points to PANIC. Yet, on the other hand, had a cooler head prevailed, the "kid" would be alive to face his charges. Maybe, just maybe, his life, though obviously misguided presently, could have been salvaged for a useful future somehow...Just as I believe my life, though severely misguided at one time has now become a useful one only because I was spared from a tragic death in a moment of bad judgement & panic.

Though being a drug addict would probably qualify me for immediate extermination by many people, some of them in this thread, that is not legal yet...but there is still hope!!! Our society is hurling towards a LEO as judge, jury & executioner style of justice system with all the "normal" people cheering it on....

reply to post by defcon5


i'll be honest, I can't tell exactly what happened from the youtube video.

I don't understand why the police could not wait this kid out? or call in a negotiator, or simply talk to the kid. he was in the street car and the police were out of the street car. it wasn't until the police entered the street car that any real danger presented itself. even if the kid was threatening, the police could have backed away out of the street car and try a different approach.

why did the kid have the persons of the street car leave?
what was he saying to the police?

too many questions for me to take any position either way.

Originally posted by roughycannon

If that was in the UK there would have been 2 bobby's and he would have got lifted...

If it happened in the UK he'd get a telling off then be released to continue with his crimes. Like this knife-wielding repeat offender yesterday.

Votan:

Well, he threatened people with a knife, and then he didn't drop the knife when he was told. This kid put his life in the hands of trigger happy cops. He gave them an excuse and they killed him. This does not excuse the behaviour (of the cops), but it could have been avoided. Even if they are found guilty of using lethal force in this situation, the kid is dead...(and serves) absolutely nothing.

By the time the cops arrived, he was threatening no one, those whom he could've have threatened had left the tram car, which does seem to indicate an intent towards self-harm. You say he gave them an excuse, but you've no evidence of this, so it is mere opinion. I agree, the actions of those cops that did the shooting is indefensible, and if they are found guilty of breaking protocol, they can then be prosecuted for a criminal act, which would serve justice.

DefCon5:

If his intent had been innocent, he would have dropped the knife.

That is your opinion. Out of all the 40+ posts you have made in this thread (so far), I have chosen this particular line because it highlights with great emphasis your mindset towards Yatim. Not once have you written anything in sympathy for him, but have sought entirely to defend the actions of the police, especially the shooting.

With what I would consider to be an egoistic display of analytical exactitude of police tactics, you seek to exonerate the cops in the minds of their critics with academic didactics. To your mind, their actions are/were within the law and their training, so there's no problem. It's as stark as black and white. All blame of consequence is entirely Yatim's. This is an expression of your mindset.

Whomever watches the video, places him/herself in the same position as the person filming the scene. The viewer is not there physically or at the same time, but the visual and aural experience the video affords the viewer is almost that of the cameraman's.

There's nothing to surmise or speculate as to what transpired, it is all there in glorious colour, to be replayed over and over again, for frame by frame analysis if necessary. Regardless of the protocol those cops were following, regardless of the training they receive, according to the video, those cops executed Yatim.

As I have stated earlier in this post, by the time the cops arrived, Yatim was no longer a threat to anyone, but potentially himself. He'd basically trapped himself on the tram car, and he wasn't going anywhere. At this point there are two guns trained on him through the open doorway of the tram, and they remain trained on him. He doesn't have a gun, as that would have been the weapon of choice to use to get the other passengers off the tram? The cops will know this (I speculate) as they will have been informed by the witnesses whom left the bus. All he has is a 3" knife. More cops arrive, and take up positions covering the tram's exits. The situation is pretty much contained and under their control.

Instead of talking calmly to Yatim, the cop is exasperating the situation and his own stress levels and those of his colleagues. Yatim's non-compliance to the cop's request does not entitle the cop to shoot him. He can only do so if Yatim's actions make the cop believe he has raised the level of threat, but the video shows nothing of Yatim's behaviour that indicates such a thing.

I have to concede that the cop probably fired the first three shots due to a movement of the hands Yatim made? It is the only way I can reconcile the cop's actions. I'm sure the cop will say he believed he was reaching for a concealed weapon...and fired. The next six shots are more than likely due to Yatim's dying movements, and misconstrued as a continuing threat. However, if a gun is indeed produced, that would be enough evidence for me to accept Yatim to have been murdered, because Yatim didn't bring a gun that's for sure.

We are now in a similar situation as that of Zimmerman and Martin. One witness dead, and multiple police witnesses to testify a sequence of events to support their actions. I expect this cop to be exonerated, my interest would be how.

reply to post by torsion


Not exactly sure what you are getting at here, but I'm going to know all the details to this incident pretty soon, as Rob Jackson was a friend of my younger brother.

This is pretty messed up

tbh the kid should have been talked down and possibly tassered to be shot at that many times was horrific

this shouts to me like

A. the police are incredibly stressed and are shooting anybody rather than take any chances whatsoever

this does not make anyone want to give up their guns if they are going to get shot waving around a vegetable knife (3" blade)

hate to be the devils advocate but do we have any law enforcement or ex law enforcement who can say that the police are going mental out there? are they being told not to take the slightest chance or endanger themselves?

the sad thing is if any of those cops had the slightest ounce of humanity or compassion they would be on that bus trying to talk that kid out of whatever was going on.

we are so quick to blame excessive police or brutality but what are their orders? take no chances shoot first?

they are people with kids and mortgages too they are not irobots some of these guys must be pushed to breaking point to do this sort of thing

in a nation full of guns etc

reply to post by Caroline13456


First of all, its one thing to carry a knife about ones person, but quite another to have pulled it for any reason in a crowded place, unless one happens to be attacked (and no, being surrounded, and attemptedly detained by the police does not qualify, despite the protestations from some folk to the contrary) by either a group of thugs, or an armed individual who intends to harm or rob you.

But, the police seemed not only to shoot this young man nine times, but tazered him afterwards. I can only assume that either the policemen missed several times, or that despite being greivously wounded, the young man retained a grip on his knife, while bleeding heavily from several GSWs. The only other possibility I can think of, is that perhaps this young man was on PCP, and therefore still represented an effective threat, despite being badly wounded. As you probably know, the effects of that particular substance can give a person near superhuman stamina, and in some doseages will allow a person to exert so much force that thier muscles actually override thier natural limitations, in such a vast way as to allow the subject to break thier own limbs. Persons with such a substance in thier blood streams are automatically considered extremely dangerous, and for good reason, since they can strike, grip, and throw at an increased level of strength, and can be rendered near insensible to pain by it.

However, we obviously do not know what the situation is, and it does seem that there were far more officers around that Streetcar than would be required to deal with a single knife weidling suspect. I was not there of course, but nine rounds and a tazer blast seems excessive to me.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by Hefficide

I counted nine shots, in two clusters. It is glaringly obvious that the first cluster ( three shots ) was more than enough to deal with a knife wielding man who did not even appear to be attacking or trying to attack. The next six shots, I can only assume, were to make sure that he never got back up. I cannot imagine him being a threat after already being shot three times and put down.

IE the last six shots were murder. Plain and simple.

Do I pull knives inside public places and scare the living crap out of everyone and force everyone out of public places under knife threat? No.

Quit forgiving criminals, blatant threats to society and people that dont contribute with anything but with fear and insecurity towards law abiding innocent citizens.

That being said... I seriously doubt much was lost besides 8 extra bullets since 1 well placed should have done its job.

You people judge too much. It's most likely the american syndrome. Anyways he didn't hurt anybody and who knows maybe he was mentally ill.

DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING DON'T JUSTIFY KILLING.

This was NOT an accident. This was Murder. Kick the knife out of his hand, or karate chop, police officers are supposed to be agile and athletic and trained in self defense as experts, or even just use a stick and swing at his hand and make it fall from his hands. Dont kill because the rules say you can. that is justifying murder because of the rules of man.

whether an eastern terrorist follows the law of allah to kill americans or Christians follow the rules of god to kill in a holy crusade, or a police officer follwing procedural law to kill a child we are all the same, followers of rules and procedures this justifies doing anything because its the law, law makes it Ok!!!!!!

hitler slowly changes the law on jews till slowly over time, the people got used to tougher laws on jews till hitler created the final law and people followed, to kill them all. if the internet existed, then trolls like on here would say its good, they deserved it, the army were just following procedure, they should not have been jew if they didnt want to die by the army officers.

but its Ok, because Some People here say its OK, the officers did right, they followed the rules, the rules of man. what type of man is another question.

Originally posted by Carreau
Just because 9 shots were fired doesn't mean he was hit 9 times. Considering how bad some city cops are, 3 hits would be normal. It says in the article that a cop with a taser didn't show up until after shots were fired.

I'm sorry but if someone pointing a gun at you (cop or not) and is yelling drop the knife and said knife holder doesn't drop the knife, this outcome is a foregone conclusion.

All that being said, since no one else was on the bus at the time, they should've waited him out unless he made a move towards one of the cops while still holding the knife.

They had plenty of time to bring in a dog or get the bean bad gun. Or just rush him from two directions with night sticks and tasers.

The guy had a knife. You can get to someone and stab them in 3 seconds if you are 15 to 20 feet away. The guy was probably mentally ill he was on a bus with a knife, the bus was empty because it was probably evacuated because there was a nutjob on it with a knife. The cops told him numerous times to put the knife down before they shot him. It was the guy with the knifes fault. Contrary to popular belief cops are allowed to defend themselves. And if your a dangerous knife wielding mentally ill person you can kill someone. Namely the cops who were called out to deal with the guy in the first place. They were called there for a reason remember? Tasers dont always stop people sometimes they dont work if the person is on drugs or hey! Mentally Ill. I'd like to see what you would do if a guy showed up at your house wanting to stab you with a knife. Would you let him kill you or your family members? Sad to say it. The guy had it coming. He was the DUDE WITH THE KNIFE. When a cop tells you to drop said knife and you dont you have just escalated his use of force to lethal means.

However I do think they should have high power rubber bullets for a shotgun in each officers car so they could take care of situations like this. Getting shot with a few rubber shotgun blasts will knock the hell out of anyone and incapacitate them. Usually. But most departments dont carry those. But someone would probably complain that they shot him with rubber bullets. How cruel it was. Ect.

reply to post by Evanzsayz


I'm from europe.

The guy had a knife. You can get to someone and stab them in 3 seconds if you are 15 to 20 feet away.

And? Cops are supposedly highly trained and well paid to stand in front of such threats and not immediately resort to lethal force. You can guarantee the cops would have had a different approach if the person on the bus was a relative of one of the cops.

reply to post by Caroline13456


Three officers guns drawn on man and he has knife. What was the test of murder in the Zimmerman case whether he thought his life was in immediate danger. Lets have these cops places under same court room test. if they fail apply at least 2nd degree murder and minimum 20 years in jail each.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


It's a pretty big place - do you want to be a little more specific if you think it's important enough to mention?

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

It's a pretty big place - do you want to be a little more specific if you think it's important enough to mention?

He said it was the "american syndrome"... I was replying to that - do you guys even bother to check what someone is replying to?

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


I knew what you were replying to. I was just curious which bit of Europe you lived in. I didn't exactly demand you tell me where you are from, did I?

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

I knew what you were replying to. I was just curious which bit of Europe you lived in. I didn't exactly demand you tell me where you are from, did I?

Since I left the army, Portugal. Been "home" for like... 3 years now. A quiet crumbling down country full of conscientious objectors and grasshoppers who dont worry about the winter and expect the ants to give them shelter...