Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

Originally posted by Rocker2013
Common sense and basic Human decency is not exclusive to cops, in fact, far from it considering the examples we've seen in recent years.

You don't need to be a cop to understand that an emotionally unstable youth alone in a vehicle is not able to harm anyone but himself.

What were they preventing by murdering him? Were they "protecting" the seat cushions from being splashed with blood if he hurt himself?

Yes, lets also feel sorry for the child abuser who "couldn't control himself", or the terrorist who was acting in the name of his or her religion, or the wife beater who was drunk when he killed his spouse...

They lost control, they used terrible judgment, and because of their basic failings a young man with his whole life ahead of him is dead. They are no different to any other murderer out there, apart from they are in uniform and have the semi-protection of a corrupt system.

No one should be immune to justice, even a cop. I don't give a damn what the excuses are. Anyone else showing such poor judgment and committing such an act would be deemed a killer, and these officers are no different.

I really have absolutely ZERO sympathy for them, none at all, I hope all those who opened fire are tried, found guilty, and locked away for a considerable length of time.

First of all, I'm not talking about common sense and decency. I'm talking about a situation where you're looking at a person with a weapon. Your fight-or-flight response is kicking in. You feel threatened, even when there's no reason to. There's no way to know when or if the situation will quickly escalate.

Secondly, anybody with a knife is able to attempt to harm someone else, especially someone emotionally unstable. Did he have any signs of aggression? No. Did he appear to be attempting to harm others? No. But an emotionally unstable person with a knife would be MORE than enough for me to feel threatened, even if it's completely illogical.

Yes, lets also feel sorry for the child abuser who "couldn't control himself", or the terrorist who was acting in the name of his or her religion, or the wife beater who was drunk when he killed his spouse...

You're comparing apples and oranges. Those are COMPLETELY different situations that completely avoid the point. A better comparison would be the Boston Massacre. A group of British soldiers feel threatened, somebody (we don't know who) fires the first shot, and the rest of the unit got caught up in the heat of the moment and opened fire on a crowd. Granted, this is not an ideal comparison either, but it's a heck lot closer than that crap you were spouting. Was there any true reason that the police in this situation should have felt
very threatened? No. But that doesn't mean they couldn't have. I'll say it again, if there was an emotionally unstable person with a knife, I'D feel threatened. Probably wouldn't matter if I was 10 feet away or a quarter of a mile away, I think I'd probably feel threatened either way.

Yes, lets also feel sorry for the child abuser who "couldn't control himself", or the terrorist who was acting in the name of his or her religion, or the wife beater who was drunk when he killed his spouse...

They lost control, they used terrible judgment, and because of their basic failings a young man with his whole life ahead of him is dead. They are no different to any other murderer out there, apart from they are in uniform and have the semi-protection of a corrupt system.

There is no such thing as an average murderer. You can't compare one human being to another. My point was that none of those police officers woke up that morning with a desire to kill that young man. I'd guess that at least some of the men involved were ordinarily good cops, who try to do the right thing. They could easily have families, friends, and people that love them. There is no cause to believe that those men were monsters. That said, their actions were inexcusable. They made mistakes. They need to pay the penalty. But comparing those men to terrorists, child molesters, or a drunken, abusive husband is completely disgusting and totally avoids the point.

reply to post by generik

first off you need to remember this was NOT a BUS, it was a STREETCAR, HUGE difference between both vehicles,

Thanks for pointing that out. Then there is no possible excuse for killing the boy.

Originally posted by spartacus699

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by spartacus699

 

It looks like he the kid set the whole thing up to be shot in the precise manner that he was, with the rear door closed, alone in the streetcar, the higher ground position in a narrow passageway, guns drawn on him. It was as if he was aware of police procedure and exploited it to bring about his own suicide.

It still requires a review of procedures and training though, so maybe it wasn't all in vain if lives can be saved in the future and police excessive use of force curtailed.

oh ya I forgot that part.... and after they shoot da shiate of of em they claim it was the dead persons own fault too! Don't want to forget that part.

All I'm saying is that it looks pre-planned by the kid and didn't just happen spontaneously as one might originally presume, which would mean that the the cop who shot him was duped into participating in a suicide by cop. That doesn't mean that there was not fault on the part of the shooter(s). He was an 18 year old slim kid with a pocket knife calling them pussies after all. Me I would have stormed the bus with my baton flying, or tried to draw the kid down the stairs for a takedown, or pried open the rear doors. Gunning someone like down ought to have been the LAST thing the cops would do in that kind of circumstance, you would think, if common sense is applied to the actual situation.

I remember a few years ago in Canada, a seemingly innocent bus passenger decided to cut the head off of the rider next to him. I am sure the decapitated innocent victim would have wished a police officer was there to take that loon out (since you can't defend yourself in Canada) point being, a knife is a dangerous weapon, and anyone trying to minimize that is being naive.

Originally posted by kingofmd
I remember a few years ago in Canada, a seemingly innocent bus passenger decided to cut the head off of the rider next to him. I am sure the decapitated innocent victim would have wished a police officer was there to take that loon out (since you can't defend yourself in Canada) point being, a knife is a dangerous weapon, and anyone trying to minimize that is being naive.

yes and in the same incident youve just talked about the police simply waited out vincent lee..there was no rush to do something and he was taken into custody without a bunch of bulletholes, and if you dont think someone who beheaded somebody and then started eating them was a more severe threat than the one in toronto you need to give your head a shake

reply to post by iwilliam

I'm pretty sure that's one of the most ridiculous and poorly thought-out things I've ever seen you post. And that's quite an achievement.

As it turns out it was a streetcar and not a bus, so I was incorrect. But, why do I get the feeling you would have made the same comment if 14 years ago I had written: Hey, what if someone hijacked a plane using a box cutter with a one inch blade as a weapon?



These are scary times we're living in.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Really? Law enforcement should get into armed melees with suspects to soothe your sensibilities?

As a kid (it's hard to assume you aren't still btw) did you never play knights or anything like that? I remember grabbing sticks and playing with my friends and regardless of how good you were, you still ended up hurt. Let's do that for real though... (this ignores that blows from a baton can kill as well.)


reply to post by Taggart


Again, the guy was a criminal who had already threatened people and who was continuing to show a threat. You don't need to know something the Police Chief doesn't to think this isn't a tragedy. The Police Chief btw hasn't disputed the need for lethal force, he has only called into question the amount of force used.

Someone with a link they posted, It has a detailed graph showing what force a officer should be expected to use and in this case the appropriate force was used. It was just obviously to much of the appropriate force.

reply to post by Hefficide


Just because risk is inherent to the job doesn't mean that anybody should expect them to take undue risks. A undue risk would be to get into a baton fight with a guy wielding a knife if you need a example.

reply to post by Hefficide

Lethal force was the last resort to a knife wielding suspect who was refusing orders while advancing in a threatening manor.

Originally posted by Hefficide
because the officer could have effectively removed himself from danger by simply backing ten more feet away, or shifting slightly to the side, placing the structure of the bus between himself and the suspect.

For some reason I'm hearing the Benny Hill music now. I can just imagine the laughs as the guy keeps coming forward and the cops unwilling to do anything else continue to back up ten feet while shifting slightly to the side. Eventually it's a full on chase circling around the bus while the audience applauds with joy.

Originally posted by Hefficide
This shooting was entirely avoidable and totally unnecessary.

It sure was. All it took for this tragedy not to happen was for the guy to drop his knife and allow himself to be arrested.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


A tragedy. A completely unwarranted tragedy. The officer that fired the initial 3 shot burst had no justification. All of those cops were in no immediate danger of being rushed by the victim. The video is not the best quality but the victim made no sudden moves in the seconds immediately prior to the discharge. Add to that the fact that a good 7 to 8 seconds passed before the second volley of multiple rounds. I can only imagine what kind of pusillanimous excuse these cops are going to come up with to save their worthless hides.

A real civil servant would have exhausted all possible options before resorting to lethal methods. It is a damn shame we don't have those any longer. I said this in a different topic a few days ago and this incident certainly proves my point. Cops have one overriding priority. That is to ensure their welfare & safety above all other things. It is pathetic. This case is one more notch on that totem pole. Man oh man. The number of incidents where civilians die due to cops making sure they do not get into harms way before they confront a situation continues to rise steadily. Seriously....1 young man with a knife versus 4 cops with firearms at the front of the bus. Yet the only way these badged cowards can end the encounter is with gunfire. All the cops did was yell and bark orders. When that failed....FUEGO! Any fool can do that. They didn't even wait for the tazer.....

Still, I am not surprised at all by your staunch support of the shooting. It is so very sad to see people cheer on the dangerous amount of lethal discretion police officers are given. It will only get worse and worse as long as people with your way of thinking continue to support such nonsense. I read your justifications for this shooting and they are weak at best. It seems to resemble the terrified jingoism of a cowed civilian browbeaten into accepting these tactics...or else.

I hope I am utterly wrong. I hope this entire shooting was justified. For nothing else other than to reassure me that cops do not have a license to kill at the slightest sign of danger. To reassure me that they tried everything in their power to end the incident without bloodshed. To reassure me that they did not murder this young man because they wanted to end the ordeal as fast and painless(for themselves) as possible.

Gotta love how the authorities talk so much in the article and say so very little. Their pathetic attempt to speak honeyed words and calm the civilian population failed utterly on me. I have seen those words, those sentences, those sympathies far too many times. I am coming to believe that those words mean nothing at all. That they are spoken only to soothe the public anger and prevent possible backlash that could harm their worthless careers.

Man!! Incidents like this get my blood boiling. "An Inept Police Officer Shoots YOU!!!! For Having a Butter Knife In Your Hand. You Die."

reply to post by ProphetZoroaster


So what you're saying is that basic human rights, such as the right not to be unnecessarily shot to death by the police, are predicated upon the idea that absolute capitulation to their authority is requisite?

Originally posted by ProphetZoroaster

For some reason I'm hearing the Benny Hill music now. I can just imagine the laughs as the guy keeps coming forward and the cops unwilling to do anything else continue to back up ten feet while shifting slightly to the side. Eventually it's a full on chase circling around the bus while the audience applauds with joy.

Wow... that is a lot of Kool Aid to try and drink all at once.

Your position is that this shooting was justified because the officer was in mortal danger. I have pointed out that by simply moving a few feet back, or to the side, that danger could have been utterly mitigated without having to resort to deadly force.

Your fantastical Benny Hill assessment is simply fallacious. Had the suspect made it off of the streetcar while armed, then the argument might stand. Given that he died inside of the streetcar, it does not.

Originally posted by ProphetZoroasterIt sure was. All it took for this tragedy not to happen was for the guy to drop his knife and allow himself to be arrested.

Do what they say, when they say it... or you'll die. Is that the message?

LOL @ new accounts suddenly appearing to argue the pro-establishment opinion blindly.

Yeah, that's not suspicious at all

We are ATS and we see you.

A possible resolution before escalation seems simple. Close the bus door. Tell to the person 'When you are tired of being on the bus, come out unarmed'. Put a reasonable time limit on leaving.

I no longer expect that type of resolution to be used in today's world though

reply to post by thenaturalist


It would have been better to just send in Bruce Lee if he were still alive to disarm the teen *RIP BL*

Ohio police are just as brutal....

reply to post by Skywatcher2011


Cop or not, I seen something like that, someone is getting their teeth kicked in for real. Dude looks like 90, walking with a cane..... The hell is wrong with people?

"We're not going to hurt her" ???

A little late for that phrase to be used. Maybe they have a different idea of what hurt is.

here is the canadian graph..i could be wrong but i believe the graph previously posted in this thread was an american one..not sure if it differs

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by Skywatcher2011

 

Cop or not, I seen something like that, someone is getting their teeth kicked in for real. Dude looks like 90, walking with a cane..... The hell is wrong with people?

Someone in the video mentioned 87 year old woman.

I fully expected a riot to break out with the officers as the target of it. Guess that why 5 or 6 cars arrived.

It's about "suicide by cop" and cops are willing to oblige.

He had a knife...he was up to no good. It was either suicide by cop or he was going to do damage to someone.

Originally posted by ProphetZoroaster


reply to post by Taggart

 

Again, the guy was a criminal who had already threatened people and who was continuing to show a threat. You don't need to know something the Police Chief doesn't to think this isn't a tragedy. The Police Chief btw hasn't disputed the need for lethal force, he has only called into question the amount of force used.

So going overkill does not equal a tragedy? Why are you arguing semantics?

There is NO proof that anything escalated for a policeman to shoot a 17yr old boy with a 3 inch Knife, 9 times in two bursts of fire, then tazering him.

There is proof that a 17yr old boy was shot 9 times on an empty streetcar seemingly surrounded, death was not the only option. *a secondary character might have done the tazering

What if it was a 14 yr old girl would you still approve? 15 yr old? 16?
What if it was a 10yr old boy? Does it matter?
People are people and should be treated as such. Not killed by Judge Dredd wannabe's.