Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

reply to post by RedDragon


Risk is implied as a consequence of their chosen vocation.

Having said that... Did you watch the video? The suspect was in a bus and contained. The structure of the bus severely mitigated the idea that he might have thrown the knife. I've carried a knife for over forty years and am extremely adept with their use - and even without mitigating factors.... getting anything but a well balanced throwing knife to stick into a target is not an easy thing to accomplish. Between the structure of the bus, the angles involved, and the odds that he was not holding a knife balanced for throwing all lend to the reality that the odds of him being able to throw it and stick the blade into a target were negligible at best.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by RedDragon

 

Because it is their job. Nobody forced them into that position, or insisted they had families they had to provide for who would be heatrbroken at their selfless display of courage turning pear-shaped.

Are you saying that it's an officer's job to maximize his or her risk of dying or being maimed?

reply to post by BobAthome


Look, you don't have to be giving them ideas - I'm sure they've got a great big list of excuses to choose from, and they're all just making sure they are on the same page with the one they opt for. .

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by RedDragon

 

Risk is implied as a consequence of their chosen vocation.

Exactly how much risk in a situation is implied and why?

Having said that... Did you watch the video? The suspect was in a bus and contained. The structure of the bus severely mitigated the idea that he might have thrown the knife. I've carried a knife for over forty years and am extremely adept with their use - and even without mitigating factors.... getting anything but a well balanced throwing knife to stick into a target is not an easy thing to accomplish. Between the structure of the bus, the angles involved, and the odds that he was not holding a knife balanced for throwing all lend to the reality that the odds of him being able to throw it and stick the blade into a target were negligible at best.

Could have charged; officers minimized their risk.

reply to post by RedDragon


No, but putting their well-being on the line is an occupational hazard, and any violence they use in response should be proportionate to the threat.

Originally posted by RedDragon

Exactly how much risk in a situation is implied and why?

Lots. It's in the job description. Criminals and the mentally ill, by their very nature, aren't very good at following orders, and cops can't be expected to get away with shooting dead every person who wont come quietly into their custodial arms.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by RedDragon

 

No, but putting their well-being on the line is an occupational hazard, and any violence they use in response should be proportionate to the threat.

Is putting their life on the line when they don't need to one of these occupational hazards?

reply to post by RedDragon


Again... slippery slope. No different than saying that a cop has the right to shoot anyone they stop in traffic as cars are potentially dangerous weapons. Yes, every once in awhile a suspect does throw their car into reverse and take out an approaching cop - but this doesn't give them a right to preemptively attack everyone they pull over as a means of trying to mitigate that risk.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by RedDragon

 

Again... slippery slope. No different than saying that a cop has the right to shoot anyone they stop in traffic as cars are potentially dangerous weapons. Yes, every once in awhile a suspect does throw their car into reverse and take out an approaching cop - but this doesn't give them a right to preemptively attack everyone they pull over as a means of trying to mitigate that risk.

Because wielding a knife is akin to being in a car?

Originally posted by IvanAstikov

Originally posted by RedDragon

Exactly how much risk in a situation is implied and why?

Lots. It's in the job description.

You didn't answer the question.

reply to post by RedDragon


Because risk is inherent in the job and mitigating that risk effectively and rationally is as well.

3 inch blade.(ooooh!)....8 feet away, no where to run, cornered, alone 18 years old.
There are many options to choose from. On that day with these circumstances they chose to fill him with led and then taser him. There is no argument this is wrong. And the cop who shot him just gets suspended with pay which is basically a vacation.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


The Tronto police should have the skills of the U.K police,they never use guns unless you have a gun,even if you have a machete they will come try take you down. you'll still be severely out numbered though.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by RedDragon

 

Because risk is inherent in the job and mitigating that risk effectively and rationally is as well.

How would you rationally minimize risk while dealing with someone wielding a knife? Should officers risk their lives to help minimize risk to people wielding knives?

reply to post by RedDragon


Yes. They aren't forced to don their uniform every morning, and any time they don't feel up to the challenge anymore, they are welcome not to turn up for work.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by RedDragon

 

Yes. They aren't forced to don their uniform every morning, and any time they don't feel up to the challenge anymore, they are welcome not to turn up for work.

You just said that officers should maximize the risk to their lives or limbs in a situation even when they don't have to. That's an absurd statement to any rational person.

Originally posted by openyourmind1262
Ive learned from this thread. Never take the bus in Toronto with a pocketknife on your person. The LEO's up there are a little on the trigger happy side of the line. Was it more than one LEO who opened fire? Lets get something straight. If the boy exposed himself on this bus, as in pulled out his penis and swagged it around. What were they afraid of being impaled by it? Lets see. 17yr old with a penis & a 3 inch blade, about 9 LEO's with probally 40cal's and 16 round clips.

Wow must have been some penis for the LEO's to pull 10 times. Because that knife is shorter than your middle finger. I have also learned the LEO's up there are a bunch of wussies.

Already down to the common tactic of trivializing what was done heh?

I don't think the problem was that he had a knife on his person while riding the bus. I think it was that he pulled it out and threatened people while also apparently exposing himself. It might even be that he eventually told everybody to get off the bus while he continued to wave the knife around. Maybe even that once the cops arrived he continued to act in a threatening manor while ignoring their commands.

The whole story hasn't come out, but enough of it has to know that the guy was obviously waving a lethal weapon and threatening people. Personally I'm ok at that point for whatever comes next. I guess my parents forgot to teach me empathy for criminals.




reply to post by Lil Drummerboy


Officers are trained just like soldiers are trained. Guess what though. People still lock up, still stress out, still make mistakes. Departments do everything they can to decrease that chance, but it is still there.

Obviously the cop made a bad choice and I think everybody can agree it was excessive force to fire that many shots. Where we will disagree is to think that it was excessive to fire any. We are also going to disagree with the idiocy of comparing them to the Taliban.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


For the same reasons I just mentioned above. Because mistakes can be made. Let's have one gun drawn at both exits and then what happens if the guy decided to attack and the cop froze? What happens if he attacked and the cop missed? This ignores the fact that you apparently think shooting a gun is movie easy. It's even more easy when you are in a stressful situation like these.

Regardless of the obvious and glaring mistakes made by the police, the guy was still a criminal waving a knife around. It doesn't get much more simple than that.

Originally posted by RedDragon

How would you rationally minimize risk while dealing with someone wielding a knife? Should officers risk their lives to help minimize risk to people wielding knives?

edit on 7/30/13 by RedDragon because: (no reason given)

Deadly force is the last option on the plate - not the first... and certainly not for reasons of preemptive "safety".

Your arguments are severely flawed here because the officer could have effectively removed himself from danger by simply backing ten more feet away, or shifting slightly to the side, placing the structure of the bus between himself and the suspect.

This shooting was entirely avoidable and totally unnecessary.

I didn't know Canada was becoming a police state, too.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by spartacus699

 

It looks like he the kid set the whole thing up to be shot in the precise manner that he was, with the rear door closed, alone in the streetcar, the higher ground position in a narrow passageway, guns drawn on him. It was as if he was aware of police procedure and exploited it to bring about his own suicide.

It still requires a review of procedures and training though, so maybe it wasn't all in vain if lives can be saved in the future and police excessive use of force curtailed.

oh ya I forgot that part.... and after they shoot da shiate of of em they claim it was the dead persons own fault too! Don't want to forget that part.