Zimmerman / Trayvon: Yeah, I'm sick of it too, but one Video you HAVE to see...

Originally posted by CaptainNemo
This is my summary of this thread:

-Trayvon deserved to die because he was going home to make lean
-It's a good thing Trayvon is dead because he would've continued to steal jewelry, smoke weed, and make lean.
-Trayvon should have walked like a normal person

You people will believe anything about Trayvon, and ignore anything about Zimmerman. This video clearly proves it, because this Whittle guy doesn't know s*** about making lean.

I'll meet you halfway, on this one.

I'll agree that this video [OP] is as pro Zimmerman as the media/trial was Anti-GZ or Pro-Trayvon. If you'll grant us that.

A few things have not changed no matter how you slice it:
- they both could've acted differently / better. It did surely NOT have to go down, this way. This bad.
- there is no evidence to corroborate any notion that this was race driven (certainly on GZ's behalf)
- the media - all media - has been horrible at reporting this story. Especially, without bias.

reply to post by EPH612


Sorry, it wasn't you who I was talking about but I was literally paraphrasing the words of some posters here. If you want to talk about rationality, isn't it true that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line? So for some that would argue Trayvon's trip from 7-11 back to his house wasn't fast enough those people aren't leaving the boy with any options. Again I'm not directing this at you, but I'm just making a point.

The people with common sense in this country are the ones up in arms because evidently, Trayvon did die as a result of being black while walking through a gated community. I acknowledge that Zimmerman has had many interactions with black people but it's naive to think he still couldn't have profiled Trayvon by race because he was friends with black people.

reply to post by My_Reality


Bravo! Great objective narrative on what transpired on that night, including what we have all been discussing on this and other threads about the series of events MOST likely to have occurred based on available information and logical inferences.

That was skillful of you. I noticed you made no speculation as to the mental state of either individual, what they could have been feeling, their beliefs or prejudices, or any of the other "extras" most of us have taken the liberty to add in our posts. It is important that someone brings us back to reality every so often.

I hate to say it but most everyone else has created psychological profiles for both Zimmerman and Martin. I definitely have, and to be honest I'm not sure how beneficial that method is. Sometimes truth is king simply for being the truth. Other times the fiction is greater than the truth. Still other times, there must be a balance between the two.

reply to post by djr33222


Thanks for your input. I just called it the way I saw it. I could be wrong; dead wrong. But, I really believe if Martin had not done such a simple, minor property infraction he would not have been noticed by anyone. I think if he had stayed on the public streets and sidewalks Zimmerman would have ignored him.

What happened was a tragedy; no doubt about that. I hate to think that this tragedy could have been avoided by an action as simple as traveling on public walkways. What a waste of life if that happens to be the case.

Originally posted by smurfy

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by D_Mason

 

Also any small cut on the head will bleed like crazy, sometimes even without pain, esp with adrenaline pumping.

That is well known and is correct because there are so many blood vessels close to the skin, same applies to the face, and in many a case you don't even know you are bleeding.

Very true, I've had 2 incidents where I cut my head (requiring 8 stitches then 4 stitches), and the blood covered pretty much my entire face, however this is not a good argument against Zimmerman, as the pictures were taken after the EMTs cleaned the blood off of him.

Originally posted by CaptainNemo
reply to post by EPH612

 

Trayvon did die as a result of being black while walking through a gated community.

That's absolutely rediculous. Zimmerman didn't even know he was black until he got close enough, so he never started following him because of his race. Listen to his phone call to 911.

What people like you refuse to even consider is this: If Trayvon was the exact same person he was, except white or hispanic, the end result would have been exactly the same. Color was NEVER a factor until Obama made it so.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


The recorded interviews with Zimmerman and all the witnesses. I also watched all the trial - not that I had much faith in the outcome, knowing how poorly the police investigation had been carried out.

reply to post by AntiNWO


You seem to be unaware of the photo taken by the neighbour who went out to the scene before the first cop arrived.

You know, the one of the back of his head which had supposedly been bleeding since Zimmerman first had his head cracked against the sidewalk at least 30 seconds earlier, yet had only managed to leave a couple of blood trails that showed no sign the person had been in a frantic tussle. The blood trails didn't even show signs of Zimmerman's fingers touching his head to try and determine how serious his injuries from his life threatening struggle might have been.

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


Excellent video! I have seen the information in it before, but not till after the trial. I always wondered why they kept saying "iced tea", instead of "juice", when watching footage of the trial, and seeing the pictures of the can. Guess we know now! S&F.

reply to post by CaptainNemo


Okay, now I understand where you're coming from. Yeah. Some people on here are extremely anti-Trayvon. But there are also several people on here who are fiercely anti-Zimmerman. So at least we have a good meld of people from both viewpoints, and an much smaller category of people (like myself) who fall somewhere in the middle. So this is a lot more discussion than what most of America gets exposed to.

And I'd agree that the claim that Trayvon should have gotten home faster is ridiculous. And I also agree that it would be naive to think that George Zimmerman couldn't have profiled Trayvon (after all, I think everyone is capable of racial profiling), but at the same time I've not heard convincing evidence to support the accusation that he DID racially profile Trayvon.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov

You seem to be unaware of the photo taken by the neighbour who went out to the scene before the first cop arrived.

You know, the one of the back of his head which had supposedly been bleeding since Zimmerman first had his head cracked against the sidewalk at least 30 seconds earlier, yet had only managed to leave a couple of blood trails that showed no sign the person had been in a frantic tussle.

Would you mind posting that picture somewhere on here? For me personally, this is the first I've heard of any supposed picture taken by a neighbor before the police arrived. And I'm a little bit surprised that I've not heard of this picture before, what with the anti-GZ viewpoint that the media and some other ATS members have. I'd really like to take a look at it, maybe it'll convince me to revise some of my opinions on the case.

Originally posted by djr33222
reply to post by theRhenn

 

Speaking of cops... I have always thought very highly of law enforcement. Never been arrested or pulled over for speeding.

One time, while in college, I was actually driving drunk at about 3 in the morning after visiting some friends at another school. I had been drinking Jack Daniels for about 6 hours, then proceeded to drive home in the first car I ever had, my right rear-view mirror was missing, my back left side window was busted, my radio was stolen, the car was basically pure #. So I got lost on my way back and came upon one of those check-points for drunk drivers. Needless to say, I was absolutely drunk and in a highly suspicious car. There were about 4 or 5 officers there when I pulled up. I made regular conversation with one of them sort of smiling because I was 100% sure I was going to jail, I didn't want to be one of those people who tries to play it off and deny what I've been doing just to end up in a cell feeling like an idiot. So I waited for him to ask me if I had been drinking to which I would have replied "Hell yes, me and my friend killed a bottle of Jack. Don't put the handcuffs on too tight please." Then they just let me go. I was like, "Those were some really cool dudes."

I've also been in other situations were I could have been arrested but was just let go.

This is why I can't exactly empathize with other black people who yell racism and profiling however I do understand what others have experienced in terms of unfairness. I didn't even follow the case. Only after the verdict and the massive explosion of media coverage did I start to care. For me it wasn't the media though that got me to be so interested in the topic but when I noticed what people's perceptions about the event were like, for both black and white people.

And this always happens. I still think racism is a powerful demon in American life, one that would require an equally powerful exorcism. These discussion are really bigger than Martin and Zimmerman because when will the next event happen and be tainted by racist propoganda? Next week, next month, tomorrow? Actually, I've noticed people bringing race into every possible topic, anything about the economy, social events, sports, religion, judicial system, entertainment, its always about race. I was just reading an article about the top 15 manliest actors in Hollywood and everyone commenting was arguing about racial crap. We have a terrible problem on our hands.

edit on 28-7-2013 by djr33222 because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-7-2013 by djr33222 because: (no reason given)

Damn you were one lucky dude. Someone was watching over you, buddy.

You know D... Listening to your events only strengthens my belief that much of the issues are based on appearance and mutual respect. I always found it harder to give tickets to people who were very respectful. I never walked up to a car with an attitude, but I did give in to one when someone argued with me or acted like a know it all, or was a smartass.

Again.. I cant speak for all cops. My partner was the kind of guy that would kick into prick mode as soon as he noticed anything potentual.

It kind of started like this..

"Hey Jes... Did you see that Fing Ahole! He's 10 miles over the speedlimit. Those MFers are pissing me off tonight! F these people, man... You know.. If I could tie these MFers up and shoot them all in the head, this world would be a better place. I'm telling you.."...

That was pretty much his attitude in a nutshell. Then he'd walk up to the car and say... "What's your F'ing problem? Why are you speeding down my road at 3 in the morning!?"

And he wondered why he couldn't walk into a bar on days off... Sadly... A LOT of cops are like this. I knew plenty. Others were just smartasses and didn't speak to you.. just through actions. When you spoke to them as a cop on cop conversation, you had a little insight that they were the same way. Some were ok though but even the decent ones had a hardon for making sure the law was followed to the letter. My uncle being one of them. No room for compassion or reason... Here is your ticket, let the judge decide. Your problem was, you got caught by me.

Friends, council, and family were always and will always be a factor.

But a good many cops will respond to respect and apperance.

There were so many times where I could have gotten so deep into trouble.. DWIs mostly... But like you, I got lucky.. But I certainly sucked up in those times like you wouldn't believe. lol Yes Sir, No Sir, what would you like for me to do for you Sir? I will sit on top of your patrol car and go "WOO WOO WOO WOO" while you do 80mph Sir!

Then I became a cop.. now I know my rights and what they can and cant do.. I dont submit anymore.

Originally posted by garbageface
OK let's break this down so everyone understands. You have 2 young men, 1 on foot walking home,

It wasn't *his* home, and he was walking in/around other homes - can you say *trespassing*? - in the rain...

Sounds suspicious to me too.

After a bit, both are on foot, against direct orders from the 911 operator for Zimmerman,

I read somewhere that it was not a 911 call, but a simple call to the police - anyone else hear this?

Regardless, Zimmerman was *already on foot* when the dispatcher he was talking to said 'we don't need you to do that', he did *not* get out of his truck afterward. He also said 'Ok', and according to the call transcript, he then *stopped* following T and tried to find a house number so he could tell police where he was.

So, Zimmerman did in fact do as *requested* (the dispatcher did not and could not *order* Zimmerman to do anything), so please stop *lying* about this particular aspect...

Fixed that for you.. The minute you tell me that Trayvon is at fault for walking home and a guy following him with a gun with CLEAR SUSPICION OF HIM simply because he's there walking home.. You lose me.

You are doing a fine job of losing yourself...

He wasn't 'just walking home', he was walking in/around other houses checking them out and acting suspiciously, in a neighborhood where there had been a *lot* of break-ins/thefts *and home invasions* recently.

I'd attack somebody who was following me walking home as well.

Then you would be guilty of assault as well and if the person you assaulted killed you in self-defense,

Do you mind telling me where you live? I may show up there and deem you suspicious and follow you around.

If you defend yourself and I shoot you, sorry, you're dead and it's your fault.

Defend myself against what?

'Following someone' is *not* an assault, and is perfectly legal, unless I follow you onto your private property, in which case it is *trespassing*, not *assault*, but you are then within your Rights to challenge me.

Attacking someone for 'following you' in a public place *is* assault, and you hopefully will get what you deserve.

I think saying he was "meandering through a neighborhood" instead of "walking home" shows a pretty huge bias. You're not fooling me.

Zimmerman's actual words were "...it's raining and he's just walking around, looking about...' - which is pretty similar to 'meandering through a neighborhood' - and in fact is what I would consider 'suspicious behavior', especially in light of the rash of burglaries/break-ins and home invasions...

Meaning, if true, then Trayvon was *not* 'just walking home'...

Admittedly, we only have George's testimony about this, so it isn't exactly proven.

reply to post by theRhenn


As a cop, what do you think about Officer Smith entering the location of a reported shooting without his gun drawn? SOP under the circumstances, or a serious error of judgement that could have proven costly?

ps. Also, if you are on patrol on your own, when you get a call to report to an incident, do you always turn on your onboard cctv, or is that on all the time?

reply to post by tanstaafl


None of your allegations about what Trayvon was doing that night are backed up by anything other than a known liar's word. We don't even know for sure if he ever saw Trayvon on RVC by Frank Taafe's house as Zimmerman says. And, there was definitely no confirmation that he was parked at the clubhouse when he got through to the nen dispatcher.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
None of your allegations about what Trayvon was doing that night are backed up by anything other than a known liar's word.

It hasn't been proven that he lied about anything that night. It is easy to get a little confused about the exact words you might have used when an event like this occurs. All you have is conjecture and speculation.

The facts that were entered into evidence during the trial (already rehashed ad nauseum in this thread) is enough for myself (and should be for any rational person capable of independent thought) to show that the jury did the right thing.

All of the facts that have come out since have only served to reinforce this decision.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by theRhenn

 

As a cop, what do you think about Officer Smith entering the location of a reported shooting without his gun drawn? SOP under the circumstances, or a serious error of judgement that could have proven costly?

ps. Also, if you are on patrol on your own, when you get a call to report to an incident, do you always turn on your onboard cctv, or is that on all the time?

edit on 29-7-2013 by IvanAstikov because: (no reason given)

I guess it depends on whether he thought there was a threat or not. Myself, I might have walked in with at very least my hand on my revolver, unsnapped. I generally didn't like pulling my gun out unless I thought there was going to be a problem. Accidents happen and I wouldn't want to be paying for someone's untimely death unless I knew well enough that my own life or someone elses life was in danger. It's a judgment call. You dont get judged much on undersight. You get judged mostly on oversight. I personally rather be killed than to ever live with having killed someone on my concious. EVEN if I had to put down a murderer.... I would live with it.

I had to work on an older woman one night... She had a heart attack. Till this day... I still see her opened eyes stairing out into nothing. I still hear the gunshot from a teenager while he blew his heart clean out of his back with an M-1 rifle because he and his girlfriend were fighting. These thinks stayed with me and that was nearly 15 years ago. I can imagine how I would feel and be haunted if I actually had to shoot and kill someone for any reason. I had to draw down on people a good handfull of times, but fortunately I didn't have to shoot.

Our cameras turned on when the strobes came on. That was 15 years ago, back when we JUST started putting VCRs in our cars. It's not like today. Today I'm sure it's like that for the safety of the Leo. Cops get sued easy. We also recorded our conversations with mics, but the strobes had to be on. This would also depend on the funding available for those departments to get this kind of gear. It might sound cheep but it's not unless the dept is well funded. Consider this.. I made 7.60 an hour back in 98'-00'. We bought our own guns and equipment. Only the uniform, the badge and the car were supplied. Guns, boots, belt, ammo, asp, mace, cuffs, holster, to name a few, were our own property.

We often worked alone, but always 2 on duity at night. In the town next to ours.. 1 cop, 1 dispature, per night. That town was known for drugs. We called it "the pharmacy". I would have quaked in my boots if I had to work there. It was not a nice place. I did undercover narcotics there a few times. Fun stuff but scary as hell. Though, in these places, you just didn't expect people running around with guns. You kind of knew most of them. If I didn't at least know generally what I was dealing with... I would have been terrified.

Cops in that area often get killed when going up against gun related violence because they just dont expect it. Even had a former officer kill 2 people in the home who were his friends, and a officer on duity because they had been friends and no one suspected that he would do such a thing. No amount of training prepares you for these situations. You just can't know. You can be careful but you still wont know.

Food for thought... a person can travel with a knife in hand over 25ft!! and stab you before you can pull your gun out of your hoster and get a bead on him and fire.

Originally posted by CaptainNemo
This is my summary of this thread:

-Trayvon deserved to die because he was going home to make lean
-It's a good thing Trayvon is dead because he would've continued to steal jewelry, smoke weed, and make lean.
-Trayvon should have walked like a normal person

You people will believe anything about Trayvon, and ignore anything about Zimmerman. This video clearly proves it, because this Whittle guy doesn't know s*** about making lean.

Actually Martin openly discussed making a batch of lean and consuming it on his facebook. He had decided to use it rather than pot because he was less likely to be "roped" in his words (meaning busted by the cops). He also thought that the dxm in otc cough syrup was related to codiene. So there is evidence to back up the claims. What is most important about the case is obviously the fact that Martin had a chance to be safe in his home after running and instead waited and attacked Zimmerman (as testimony and evidence indicate).

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by AntiNWO

 

You seem to be unaware of the photo taken by the neighbour who went out to the scene before the first cop arrived.

You know, the one of the back of his head which had supposedly been bleeding since Zimmerman first had his head cracked against the sidewalk at least 30 seconds earlier, yet had only managed to leave a couple of blood trails that showed no sign the person had been in a frantic tussle. The blood trails didn't even show signs of Zimmerman's fingers touching his head to try and determine how serious his injuries from his life threatening struggle might have been.

I'm fully aware of that picture, and two things about that:
1.) To call it "a couple of blood trails that showed no sign the person had been in a frantic tussle" is ludicrous. Exactly how would his blood be different if there was a "tussle". There was no rolling around on the ground. There wasn't even a struggle between two people standing on their feet. Zimmerman was told "we don't need you to do that" after stating that he was following Martin. He replied "OK" and headed back to where he came from. Martin cold-cocked him out of nowhere, broke his nose, knocking him to the ground, then sat on top of him and beat him while Zimmerman screamed for help, and if you watched the trial, all of the evidence supports this.

2.) If you've ever been in a fight in your life, you know that if you're on the bottom, you're as good as dead if the guy on top wants to kill you. You have only one option: to get up off the ground, and to do that you MUST lift your head. There is just no way to get up from that position with your head flat on the ground. Martin's barrage of punches caused Zimmerman's head to hit the ground repeatedly when he was raising it to try to get up, and the blood proves that his head hit the ground repeatedly, whether you care to admit it to yourself or not.

And to dismiss this all because you're not happy with the amount of blood, and then on top of that, give no explanation as to how his head got bloodied just destroys all credibility for you IMO.

And because you think that his first reaction after defending himself by killing someone should be to run his fingers into the holes in his scalp so that you can see that he was concerned doesn't make it so. Maybe you would do such a thing, but basing your opinion on what you think you might have done is nothing more than an assumption based on a guess.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ruderalis1
I was unaware of Zimmerman having past history beating his spouse and police officers.

He doesn't.

Certain posters here keep saying that he does ... but the FACT is that Zimmerman has no such history.

- When Zimmerman was 19 or 20, he and an undercover cop had a tussle at a bar. The undercover cop was hastleing Zimmermans friend. The cop later dropped the charges against Zimmerman because the cop was misbehaving in the matter.

- Zimmerman and his 'ex' both had restraining orders placed against each other when they had a fight. A while later, when both had calmed down, they both dropped the complaints against each other.

finally, thanks bugs me when i read this too


you get 6+ months in Jail for beating up a cop...

for the people mentioning this

it was a minor altercation with a police officer which resulted in charges for resisting an officer, you can do SERIOUS jail time for 'beating up a cop'. he was standing up for his friend at the time. apparently i tend to believe this version of events as he served no jail time??!?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Sorry it took me awhile to get back to ATS. I could not find the photo I am referring to online. I saw it once or twice on NBC. The moderator said at the time that authorities were discouraging the showing of that particular photo in the media (too inflammatory), but they did show it a time or two that I saw.

The one photo of Trayvon Martin lying dead that is being circulated does not clearly show what is in his left hand. The blurry white thing a little distance away seems to me to be a white examiner's glove.

The picture I saw was taken from the other side of the body and shows the left hand holding what appears to be a small paper bag in his left hand. Authorities confirmed that they found Skittles close by the body.

For what it's worth, I've attached the link to the Gawker photos, though it's the same picture the OP posted in his film clip, with Zimmerman's bloody nose and cut to the back of his head juxtaposed right above it.

Here's the link:

the one photo I could find

reply to post by theRhenn


Ok - I gave you a star for reading the actual article - nice.