Your "Ufology" Is Lacking. Can You Handle the Truth (Evidence)?

reply to post by AQuestion

Ding-ding. All boxers back to their corners. I love both of y'all, so don't get me wrong: Dru is no more pompous than many of us and less so, imo, than most of us. Sure, I don't agree with her on many issues, but she brings a lot to the table. I've never considered her an arse. At least not of the sort I can be haha.

Further, and I could be wrong, but I don't think she would be spending so much time talking with you if she didn't find it worthwhile or stimulating. I know I've enjoyed discussing subjects with you AQ.

As far as Roswell...I'm pretty much with Druscilla on that one with the exception that I think it has been used as a psyop. Very possibly to VALIDATE, to some degree, the ETH. Now WHY would our intel boys do THAT?

reply to post by The GUT


Dear The GUT,

Major respect, I am done unless she chooses to U2U me. I know she is smart and reasonable and really appreciate it. Thanks for calling a time out. Peace Dru.

reply to post by The GUT


Dear The GUT,

I responded to her before I read your read your last post. I believe she should be allowed to respond to me and I will not respond to her. I think she should have the last word. Please.

Originally posted by UncleVinnys
I just cannot buy the demon theory.
With the evidence we see of technological advances from these creatures, we would be toast by now if there were a truly evil intent.
Rather, check out the works of Dr. John Mack. His in-depth interviews with abductees suggests there is mind-expanding, even spiritual evolution taking place with these contacts.

The the origin of the phenomena is earth itself....if earth was their 'home', they would treat the human species as an insect that needs to be 'controlled'. Akin to treating a house for termites.

IOW....you don't burn the entire house down, so they manipulate social trends and political trumoil...start a war...kill another 40 million people and then go dormant again.

...works for me.

Wow, some people here are ready to take the position of demons and spirits only to oppose the more likelyhood of us not being the only intelligeng life in space! I am amazed.

So to you who defend the idea that aliens are some interdimensional beings who pose as aliens have you considered:

- if something interdimensional exists, the universe there, planet, world, hell or paradise still makes them aliens? It would be hard to define because by aliens we mean 'from another planet' without including dimensions. But they would still be an outwordly civilization - more advanced, more intelligent and better.

Oh but here is the problem - you absolutely exclude that there is any technolog involved, to you this is MAGIC like some fantasy book where evil spell can transform those evil! demons into UFOs and spaceship!

Does such way of thinking seem normal and logical to you?

THE_GUT just stop with this propaganda... you are trying to push your beliefs in this forum but they may be far from what there is. It's a propaganda cause I see thread after thread popping up lately to impose some 'critters or demons acting as spaceships'

If you don't believe look at DOCs, look at accounts and tell me that there haven't been any cases of ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY which is of UNKNOWN origin...

And all these posts like 'No solid evidence' - the evidence of technology and sightings of unknown craft is enough, what's not enough is whether they are non-human or not

The rest is one pointless propaganda, look at threads of IsaakKoi, karl12, mirageman and many others - policemen seeing objects moving fast, metallic, silver, TELL ME THEY ARE ALL LIARS??

Analysing your topic:

Your Ufology

refers to you are not part of this idea and obviously of life existing elsewhere

can handle

yes we can, any open minded person can handle it as long as there is suggestion, the evidence and likelyhood of your idols Jauqes Valee and similar is close to none.

Truth? So now this is truth? Evidence? Close to none about those evil demons shapeshifters!

You are better off with the Religion forum this is clearly not your place...

i find this topic very interesting and have mused on it for a few years...

not from the perspective of a religious person, but from the perspective that all cultural ideas can be examined through the lens of "folklore"

after all, even i AM religious, my ideas will be considered "folklore" (or "FL" for ease) by some future scholar. My religious concepts will simply be considered as part of the cultural milieu.

The first connection between UFOs and FL that i noticed involved the Faerie tradition of western europe. I've been thinking for years that crop circles and Faerie circles could be connected... Also throw in the notion of changlings. The "Changling" is a being left in the crib after the Faeries make off with a child. This being is either all Fey or a mix of Fey and Human. Then there is the Rip Van Winkle time wrinkle issue and how it might relate to UFO "missing time"

so there is a tiny chunk of thoughts that relate UFOs to FL in a NON CHRISTIAN, NON DEMON, kind of way.

I think that there really IS something to this line of thinking, but i also feel that we will FAIL if we simply slap OUR culture gloss over the phenom as an explanation.

right now our culture is STILL at war between religious and scientific points of view. So the most common take on ANY phenom, even UFOs, will reflect the push and pull between these poles.

NOW

IF we can talk about the energetic nature of these visitors in a logical way, while making USE of the information in FL, we might get somewhere...

Throughout history, reports range widely. Dragons, Oannes, Shining Ones, Nagas, Ant People, Kachinas, Djinn, Fey, Angels, Demons.

Scientifically, were supposed to say thats all bunk.
Religiously, were supposed to PICK ONE and say the others are all bunk.

so if im a Christian, all faeries are demons. But the fact that Ive simply slapped MY culture gloss over someone elses FL is gonna be lost on me most likely...


But there IS a tradition of sorts dealing with interdimensional communication, this tradition even relies on technology (of a sort) to accomplish its "aims"

Im essentially suggesting that the ritual forms of magic are older than Christianity, and that the agents contacted through such works might not be best interpreted in Christian terms.

Cultural Gloss can seriously step between us and clean information.

Do we have any proof that these entities are EXCLUSIVELY malicious? Or do they seem as varied in their caprices as the "Gods" of old?

the term Daemon in Greek did not denote anything exclusively evil.

and also, even inside the goetic system ("black" magic or summoning) it is claimed that one can contact evil, neutral, or positive entities.

Dark Mission at amazon



an odd book filled with info connecting the space program with the occult

I read once somewhere that Werner Von Braun was first involved in early film special effects before becoming interested in rockets...

anyone got any info on that?

it opens the door to a wicked conspiracy theory involving this idea...

secret societies use magic to say hello to something. that something agrees to help them in a CON. that something pops up at the right time and says HI, im an alien, give my pals in this secret club a bunch of money and we will show you how to go to space..

meanwhile, the club gets rich, and the "space success stories" are all shown to us on TV

meanwhile we are arguing about a space program, a secret space program, and why so many of the pictures seem to have been FAKED.

HRRRRMMMM

but i still dont want to approach this from a standpoint as small as a single religion, this phenom is global and has been active throughout history.

the christians will say, well OF COURSE, satan has been manipulating since the creation

PLEASE set aside your cultural gloss and admit that Christian ideas are only 2k years old. We could RELIGIOUSLY claim that these flying energy events are the soul of HORUS, flying to and from the DUAT in the service of his father OSIRIS.

but thinking like that wouldnt really get us anywhere.

for example, if we DO take the Christian stance on UFOs=Demons... then the smart thing to do is to IGNORE the whole phenom and spend more time in Church.

But that IS NOT how we are finally gonna figure this stuff out.

the entire line of thinking in my two posts above relates to the energetic/multi dimensional UFO theory.

I happen to be a fan of the whole anomalies scene, and I think that UFOs are bigger than any single take on them..

Meaning that the likelihood of energetic or MD UFOs does not effect the likelihood of physical 3d alien UFOs.

This is not an either or

and history is FULL of both types of reports.

and even stranger reports still.

on page 1 or 2 of this thread, someone mentioned Charles Fort. PLEASE read this guy. I have his complete works and i treat it like Head Medicine..

Charles documented SO MANY seeming rips in reality that reading him enough will erode the consistency of any pre installed ideas.

good for the head. Of course, throwing out the map they handed you in childhood and trying to make sense of reality on your own is a scary challenge for some, and they prefer to remain with the ideas of their parents.

reply to post by Druscilla


Thanks for your kind reply.

I have no objection to using sleep paralysis etc to explain cases where that's the BEST fit.

I object to it being applied . . . more or less seemingly thoughtlessly (by some--not per se you) across the board.

"Scientism" is a firmly acceptable term in the circles I operate in.

I believe it is accurate and the BEST, most FITTING term to use.

The RELIGION OF SCIENCE is well documented TO DISPLAY all the "-ism's" of religion from top to bottom, inside and out.

The "True Believer" aspect is essentially identical to the "True Believer" aspect of many religions.

I realize that many "super rationalists" may decry the use of such accurate terms. It eats at their world view.

Tough tacos.

I see nothing uncivil about scientism. The truth often is uncomfortable.

I'm usually fairly hostile to mindless "PC--vocabulary-ism"

.
.

What no one is talking about is that if we were traveling to others planets how would we behave on our scientific mission. What would our protocol be? Would we interact with a primitive species? Would we trust the species? Germs? Gravity? Air quality? I really don't think I would want to get out of the ship, it might be a suicide mission.

Who says these UFOs aren't drones sent to collect samples and observe? I really think our imagination is limited and censored. I wonder what the humans will accomplish in 1000 years? I have often thought the visitors were human, and this is the biggest secret of all. They don't want us to know that?! I personally have heard some stories from 4 other old unrelated people, and I believe them about their experiences. I saw something move four years ago for a few seconds in the sky. It is very frustrating not knowing what is going on. Intelligent people are asking questions in this day and age. It is an exciting time in history. It is entertaining.

Originally posted by ImpactoR
Wow, some people here are ready to take the position of demons and spirits only to oppose the more likelyhood of us not being the only intelligeng life in space! I am amazed.

I think what we have here is a passing of the baton in what we want to believe. I feel aliens is just the next "thing" to use to explain what is not yet explainable.

We can say they are both real, but we always go up against a wall that stops us dead when we want some kind of physical substance to collaborate the stories.

- if something interdimensional exists, the universe there, planet, world, hell or paradise still makes them aliens? It would be hard to define because by aliens we mean 'from another planet' without including dimensions. But they would still be an outwordly civilization - more advanced, more intelligent and better.

I agree, demons would be aliens too.

Oh but here is the problem - you absolutely exclude that there is any technolog involved, to you this is MAGIC like some fantasy book where evil spell can transform those evil! demons into UFOs and spaceship!

Tech will always be magic to someone. Think of our tech a million years from now, or a billion...One thing to think about and we might as well go there since we are talking about beings that do not have any proof of their existence anyway, and that is supernatural powers. We can't rule that out just because we don't have them too. It might be something as easy to them as us picking up a rock, they can't do that, so picking up a rock might be a supernatural power to them. Their abilities could use the forces of the universe as if it was their hands.

If you don't believe look at DOCs, look at accounts and tell me that there haven't been any cases of ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY which is of UNKNOWN origin...

The problem here is that it might as well be science fiction, "ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY which is of UNKNOWN origin" is just another way of saying "it is magic", or "it is God's will"

And all these posts like 'No solid evidence' - the evidence of technology and sightings of unknown craft is enough, what's not enough is whether they are non-human or not

So we can agree there is something, lights, shinny objects etc, but how do we go from this to aliens? That is a rather large leap, might as well say they are 600 pound purple flying hippos from the center of the earth.

The rest is one pointless propaganda, look at threads of IsaakKoi, karl12, mirageman and many others - policemen seeing objects moving fast, metallic, silver, TELL ME THEY ARE ALL LIARS??

But that is all we know...after 6000 years we have nothing more than shinny objects and lights. A very important point here is in the last 15 years we have grown to a world wide connection where everyone has a phone, camera, mass forums etc. Billions connected to each other instantly, billions of cameras and if anything the sightings have dwindled.

As for evidence we have people that talk about aliens, then others write books about them, others read those books and suggest they are experts and write more books as experts, people say they are real because we have experts writing books...lol

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by SaturnFX

...Imagine finding a untouched tribe on earth somewhere and them immediately murdering anyone coming close due to them thinking we are demons because we are different and advanced and their shamans said we are supernatural evil people.

Yeah...they might have gotten to keep their rain forest or some such. Oh well...technology must advance as they say in the military-industrial complex.

Nice to see you, though, brother. I have always enjoyed our conversations.

Don't get me started on "magical thinking," however...it always reminds me of how much science relies on it.

edit on 3-7-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Sup Gut.
Well, don't get lost in the example and miss the point of what I am saying. Point is, a neutral stance is required if and when the proverbial ET lands on the (insert famous building's lawn here) moment. Auto shooting would be a disaster..but in the same time, its best to hold off on the hugging and kissing until some confirmation comes of not only origin, but intent.

I think Reagan quoted best...Trust, but verify.

Originally posted by Xtrozero


But that is all we know...after 6000 years we have nothing more than shinny objects and lights.

[color=6699FF]not so.

We have more than 4,000 trace landing site evidence cases very scientifically investigated and very scientifically analyized by a team of well trained folks.

We have thousands of cases of marks and implants in bodies inexplainable by "swamp gas," "sleep paralysis," "mass hallucinations"--a contradiction in terms. etc.

Folks may choose to ignore or rationalize away such solid evidence but it IS THERE.

Are demons and fallen angels the same critter? I'm no-one who's researched into matters ancient text, but also, what of the sons of God who produced those giants with the daughters of men? Are those sons of God fallen angels? Or yet, their own critter?

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Sup Gut.
Well, don't get lost in the example and miss the point of what I am saying. Point is, a neutral stance is required if and when the proverbial ET lands on the (insert famous building's lawn here) moment. Auto shooting would be a disaster..but in the same time, its best to hold off on the hugging and kissing until some confirmation comes of not only origin, but intent.

I think Reagan quoted best...Trust, but verify.

I've tried to make it clear, but the thrust I'm trying to make here transcends a single religious viewpoint. It even encompasses what most would consider a secular viewpoint. Let's revisit Keel again so as to be clear:

"The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon..." 

- John A. Keel, UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse, p. 299

Whatever that "age-old demonological phenomenon" might turn out to be.

While the Brookings Report from the 60's did state that the discovery of ETI would be "electrifying" for mainstream religious communities…that doesn't really say that much and it was think-tank supposition rather than "science." Who trusts those Brookings cats anyway?

Based on an observation by Col. John B. Alexander, his accomplished wife--Victoria Alexander--conducted a study/poll that seems to refute the knee jerk reactions often aimed at the religious community as regards the discovery of extraterrestrial life. Here's the basic statement by Col. Alexander:

Alexander UFO Religious Crisis Survey: Development of Questions and Analysis of Responses
John Alexander, Ph.D, NIDS (National Institute for Discovery Science)

Would irrefutable proof of intelligent extraterrestrial life in the universe have any effect on religious ideology in the U.S.? The UFO Community maintains there are several reasons the U.S. government has withheld information on the UFO phenomenon (and its component aspects). A reason prominently offered is that there would be a religious crisis in this country. Yet, in my research I could find nothing to substantiate this premise. This conundrum led to the hypothetical question: if a mass UFO landing were to take place how would pastors, priests and rabbis address the event to their congregation? What if, in the weeks that followed a face-to-face contact, we found out (as the UFO Community's leaders proclaim) these obviously technologically superior beings had no religion?

www.ufoevidence.org...

Victoria Alexander's synopsis of the results:

The Alexander UFO Religious Crisis survey addresses just one of many problems facing the UFO Community: how would organized religions in the United States react to confirmation of contact with an advanced extraterrestrial civilization. The results of this pilot survey are straightforward and remarkably simple. The theologians surveyed would not feel their faith and the faith of their congregation would be threatened. The following results, based upon a 23% return (230 surveys) should have a significant and meaningful impact on the UFO Community, its doctrines and attitudes.


www.ufoevidence.org...

Ufologist Ted Peters took the idea and made a more hardy study--with a more diverse sampling base: Roman Catholicism, mainline Protestantism, Orthodox Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, and Buddhism and came to basically the same conclusions:

The Peters ETI Religious Crisis Survey

So, it seems, most of the religious community would weigh the evidence and consider the case for what they were dealing with. As, I hope, the secular world at large would do as well. Besides, not many folk of any persuasion would be foolish enough to take a shotgun to an ET battle.

Originally posted by ImpactoR
If you don't believe look at DOCs, look at accounts and tell me that there haven't been any cases of ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY which is of UNKNOWN origin...

And all these posts like 'No solid evidence' - the evidence of technology and sightings of unknown craft is enough, what's not enough is whether they are non-human or not

The rest is one pointless propaganda, look at threads of IsaakKoi, karl12, mirageman and many others - policemen seeing objects moving fast, metallic, silver, TELL ME THEY ARE ALL LIARS??

You fail to grasp the complexity of the problem in my opinion. Fore-mostly, I don't allege that there is no "tech" involved. Neither do I discount, out-of-hand, intelligent life on other planets somewhere out there.

But by continually bringing up the "tech" aspect, you prove what I state above about the complexity of the argument eluding you. There have been SO many varying descriptions of these "craft" that it almost makes no sense. That fact has to be taken into account and, so far, while many of us here are taking the time to explain why we feel the way we do, you, on the other hand, keep making the same non-informing statements without much in the way of elaboration.

Why so many, many, many different craft, Impy? And, that's just the start of the very valid questions that form the basis for trying to find an alternative theory to the ETH that more closely fits the wide-range of reported phenomenon.

If you haven't read Keel or Vallee, you should. At worst you'd be able to argue your points more coherently and in a more informed way, at best you might actually feel your mind expand. Love ya, brudda!

Hey Gut, I have been searching about "elementals". These go back hundreds of years, and scholarly guys of old have written about them.
en.wikipedia.org...

In his 16th century alchemical work Liber de Nymphis, sylphis, pygmaeis et salamandris et de caeteris spiritibus, Paracelsus identified mythological beings as belonging to one of the four elements. This book was first printed in 1566 after Paracelsus' death[5] and may be pseudepigraphical. He wrote the book to "describe the creatures that are outside the cognizance of the light of nature, how they are to be understood, what marvellous works God has created".

In contemporary times there are those who study and practice rituals to invoke elementals. These include Wiccans, esoteric Freemasons, and followers of nature based religions.

I wonder if ufo humanoids, mibs, bigfoot etc, could be categorized with elementals, or am I trying to merge apples and oranges? Also, elementals can be good or bad? Just a thought.

Originally posted by Druscilla



As it applies to UFOs, please allow me to repeat, I do not deny that there IS a UFO phenomenon.
What that phenomenon IS, however, is yet to be defined, quantified, pinned to a wall and labelled.
When discussing the genuine UNKNOWN factor applicable to the UFO phenomenon, I'm referring to the minority 5% that are as of yet attributable to misidentification, hoax, or the other common findings.
When discussing the genuine UNKNOWN factor applicable to the UFO phenomenon, that 5%, I'm referring to those outliers.

Why do I get the feeling that you know a lot more about the "UNKNOWN" than you are telling us. I base this on your posts in this fine thread.





www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Druscilla

As to UFOs, and just UFOs, in only describing the 5% or fewer cases of genuine Unknowns, I maintain a stance of being perfectly happy with a classification of Unknown.

I am not sure Drucilla where you are sourcing this 5% quote but this number is notorious for falsely portraying this topic. For my observation, the quote labors inside the circles of eager dismissal much as an orphaned argument from repetition, a signature one-liner. I would be careful of employing it, if you want to portray a position of objectivity on an issue.

Let's set aside the fact that one cannot quote a single gross statistic to summarize a multi-variabled divergent hypothesis testing hierarchy. Not only is it simply non-sequitur; moreover, the "5%" is simply too inaccurate, too imprecise, too subject to equivocation. As I researched it, the phrase originated from a 1970's TV show named 'Project UFO,' inaccurately posing a subsection summary of the results inside the Air Force's efforts to dismiss the whole topic. In other words, the quote was originally posed as a tautology in the first place. Not really a credible tool in science or factual recitation. It was recited most recently by Michael Shermer in his regular update in Scientific American.

The 5% one liner is a tasty broth of Penultimate Set Fallacy, Fallacy of Composition, and Appeal to False Authority all whipped up into a sophist refutation Amphibology that Michael Shermer calls the "Dismissible Margin."

Be very careful about the murky pedigree of one-liners which serve to provide a false underpinning of confidence to prejudicial thinking.