Your "Ufology" Is Lacking. Can You Handle the Truth (Evidence)?

Originally posted by FireMoon
...There are reams and reams written about Crowley, almost on a daily basis, and they are all guilty of a huge omission. That being, Crowley himself said, in his later years, words to the effect of. "It's all utter bollocks really, I just totally enjoy seeing people scrabble around hoping to find a key without any true realisation of what it is they seek. Everything |I have written about ritual means nothing it's simple, you either can or you can't and those who can;t it is usually completely down to their own foibles, as to why they can't".

As always, FireMoon, you bring much to the table, mate.

And you do make a good point about Crowley. His definition of Magic(k) is really quite mundane:

..."the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will", including both "mundane" acts of will as well as ritual magic. Crowley wrote that "it is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature".

en.wikipedia.org...

It has been postulated that man has a "god" gene and is predisposed to believe in gods etc....perhaps in this day and age, people are experiencing their "enlightenment" as UFO's rather than gods?

Just a thought.
I am a Christian, but not a church goer. I believe in God and Christ, but have a great disdain for the "Church of Man" and it's associated organizations. I also find it eerily telling that modern cosmological theory is pretty much exactly represented in the first few pages of Genesis, not to mention that evolution is also supported, given a certain perspective of Genesis.

Given all that, I also know that mankind tends to be irrational, tends to be psychotic and paranoid....so to see UFO's when none exist is not outside the realm of possibility. On the flip side...I also do not see how UFO's, as aliens of some kind, would be impossible.

I also think it's really weird that a career Air Force officer would confuse a crashed flying saucer with a balloon of any kind. I find it quite telling that it took a General to determine it was a balloon.

Originally posted by dollukka
S&F great post OP. This made me think of Scientology and the doctorine of L.R.Hubbard. Hubbard was activily involved with satanism and scientology is a UFO religion.. connection.

Even though Crowley made fun of L. Ron (and Jack Parsons) in a letter, it seems that L. Ron turned out to be a much better "black magician." Crowley was often begging for money and Hubbard had folk throwing it at him.

Bad ju-ju with that soulless cat!! He's been dead umpteen years now and he still creeps me out.

Originally posted by ZaffyDenver
As a Paranormal Investigator I have to say that I can't see any evidence that UFO/other worldly beings are in any way connected to Demons etc. Do I think that life doesn't exist elsewhere? Off course not that would be very naive of anyone to think that if not a little egotistical. Does Ufology fall under the term Paranormal? Well yes off course it does but do I think that they are connected to Demons etc? No not in the slightest.. I have neither seen nor ready any properly researched material that would suggest this...
Just my opinion..

What do you consider as "properly researched material" as regards paranormal phenomena? Further, as a paranormal investigator, what have you yourself managed to validate in the field?

Have you read the following book, btw?

The Trickster and the Paranormal

reply to post by JayinAR

Flat land is just an example. In flatland people can only move forward, backwards, left or right. "Up" or "Down" is unknown to them. Whereas we sit and look down at them and see their every move, they cannot perceive us at all, even though we are both occupying the same space.

reply to post by Druscilla


Dear Druscilla,

Edit: I think now you were framing those statements as examples of what you feel the general consensus of perception is.

That is correct. I did not mean to imply that you considered them crazy, sorry for not being clearer.

reply to post by Druscilla


Dear Druscilla,

I had to take some time I think about why I find dismissing the whole phenomenon annoying. I apologize for coming off as cranky (no, you did not call me that, it is my description). When I was growing up we were taught that the stories about giant squid were just in the imagination of these foolish, myth believing sailors back in the 1500s. Turns out they were absolutely correct. Same thing is also true about gorillas by the way. I do however believe that we have not been told the truth, I don't know what the truth is but we have not been told it.

Let me present you with something to consider. The government currently claims that what was found at Roswell was a very secret, special balloon that was part of Project Mogul. Project Mogul involved putting balloons into high orbit that could hear if the Russians tested a nuclear bomb. The head of the project said that one of the flights was never retrieved a couple of years ago and that it must have been what was found. You see, he kept a diary of every retrieval.

Now you can accept that answer; but, I will tell you why it must be a lie. You could even replicate a balloon coming down anywhere you want. Here is the problem, if the balloon was Mogul, why was it not returned to the project? Remember, we know it wasn't returned because the head of the project kept a diary on all of the flights and said it was never found. Let us assume it was left with General Ramey as we were told. It would be treason for him not to have returned it. There are military people on this site, they know. It was General Ramey's duty to return this supposedly super secret balloon, at least he should have notified them that it had been retrieved and no such communication was made.

I have no idea what was retrieved, I wasn't there. What I do know is that the official story is a bald faced lie or General Ramey broke the law that could resort in a court martial. If it was a Mogul balloon, why wouldn't he return it? I am not saying it was a flying saucer, I am saying that the government lied about what it was and people accept it because it makes them feel comfortable. I actually do not believe in the alien hypothesis nor do I believe in the human made hypothesis. The reports do not reflect that either is likely as they don't fit physics.

I used to be in a vanpool. A number of years ago we were driving into work and a slow moving green meteor (the news said later) streaked across the sky, it was seen by thousands. As it passed one of the passengers began saying that it was not a UFO. Now, I found this funny because nobody had said it was, we just all watched it. Years later I came across an article about how a bunch of green meteors were seen in the 50s; but, the articles claimed that meteors could not appear green. I have no idea what we saw, I was happy with the meteor explanation at the time.

What we are dealing with are outliers. Things that do not fit in with our preconceived notions. When I was growing up they used to tell us there were no aliens. Now, scientists tell us there are probably aliens (life on other planets). Here is my question. If a flying saucer landed on the whitehouse lawn and was televised and the government told us that it was okay and they were our friends, would you assume it was indeed aliens? And then how we would we prove it? Once confronted by a true outlier people tend to accept the first theory that is the most comfortable. What if they were demons, would you rather believe in demons or aliens?

You have a Phd, you were probably taught what to do with outliers. You ignore them and delete the data. I would ask that you consider reading "The Book of the Damned" by Charles Fort. He studied anomalies and people's reactions to them. As a psychologist you might find people's reactions to these anomalies as interesting. I had a NDE and never discuss the details. It is pointless, a few close family and friends know; but, that is it. It is pointless because proof would never be enough to convince others that did not know me. I may be a jerk to some; but, I am not a liar and my close family and friends and even my enemies know that. You can tell me all things my NDE could have been; but, you didn't have one and I don't think you want to try and replicate one on yourself.

I respect you and your accomplishments. It takes a lot to a doctorate, I know. What I fear is that we stop looking at the outliers and asking why and what they mean. The outliers are where we should look, it is why we built the Large Hadron Collider, to learn more. Peace.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by dollukka
S&F great post OP. This made me think of Scientology and the doctorine of L.R.Hubbard. Hubbard was activily involved with satanism and scientology is a UFO religion.. connection.

Even though Crowley made fun of L. Ron (and Jack Parsons) in a letter, it seems that L. Ron turned out to be a much better "black magician." Crowley was often begging for money and Hubbard had folk throwing it at him.

Bad ju-ju with that soulless cat!! He's been dead umpteen years now and he still creeps me out.

Hmmmm now that throws up an interesting point. I suspect that Crowley would heartily laugh about both Parsons and Hubbard as it would seem that, they dealt with all the weird stuff and took in their stride, as it were and were undone by a member of the opposite sex. In Parson's case, I believe and am willing to stand corrected, it was his assignation with the sister of his lover that saw him crash and burn. As for Hubbard, there's so much myth that it's often hard to work out who did what, where to whom and why. However, it generally seems to be the accepted tale that. Hubbard was totally and utterly dominated by his spouse and was merely a pawn in their game and that, he was little more than a figurehead and ideas person for someone else who was making the huge amounts of moolah... in Hubbard;'s case his wife.

It's also worth remembering the context of Crowley. Crowley came from a well to do Leamington family with aspirations up the social ladder. In England in Crowley's time, the idea of a "gentleman" having a "job" was still seen as a tad demeaning and he lived through the period where, even the sons of the moderately wealthy were beginning to be expected to actually go and do a job. it must have been a bit of a culture shock for him and I suspect, one he never really wanted to deal with. Crowley came from a background where mentioning money was simply not done in polite company. Money was just something that was a means to an end and utterly pointless and gauche simply in itself. Quite different to the American model Parsons and Hubbard were part of.

Its doubly ironic that one Dennis Wheately would spend his lifetime slagging of and generally telling the plebs to stay away from magick and that Crowley was a bad man when, without Crowley's teaching him personally, he'd never have made a fortune from his , often unintentionally hilarious both deeply sexist and casually racist books about the occult. It really does crack me up that Wheatley's message seems to be. Only the well to do and titled classes are august and intelligent enough, to read about such things and to understand and deal with them. One might say that, little has changed we have merely traded peerages for doctorates in the pecking order.

As the venerable Doctor Who once said of the Master. " I am constantly amazed by how, such a large brain can live inside such a small mind"

We would need to properly define "demon" for a start. Actually we need to properly define a great many things!

I believe we are being hit from all sides. There are demon/spiritual/entities we have no knowledge of who live on this planet visiting us as well as entitities from other planets and other dimensions.

We need to define what a dimension is also.

reply to post by Druscilla


OK. Some good points there.

I just take issue with trying to throw the baby out with the bath . . . with trying to black wash all UFO and experiencer reports as

"sleep paralysis" etc. etc. etc. whether reproduced SIMILARLY [virtually never identically] in the lab.

There's PLENTY of solid evidence of FAR MORE going on than such 'pretended safe' explanations support in the least degree.

I realize that the 'super rationalists,' 'naturalists,' 'religion of scientism' etc. etc. blokes have a BIG interest in neutering to destroying anything spiritually evil . . . or even anything purportedly super tech or supernatural about the UFO phenomena.

However, facts are stubborn things. And many DETAILS even--whether from the trace landing cases or the experiencer abduction narratives . . . MANY DETAILS are incredibly persistent across all cultures; decades; all socio-economic groups; all education groups etc. imho, That incredible wealth of detail is simply not present in the more mundane explanations regardless of lab experiments or not.

reply to post by Blue Shift


Guy Malone's 400+ cases wherein

1. the occult connection as opening a 'spiritually legal' doorway to the phenomena was inherent in each case
2. the manipulative, destructive, evil nature of the abduction experiences were reasonably consistent and inherent.

3. The solution of applying the standard spiritual warfare strategy of praying, commanding, asserting "In the Name and Blood of Jesus" WORKED in each case.

4. Scientist Dr Jacques Vallee found after 10 years that the critters are evil entities coming from an evil DIMENSION. And, Dr Hynek largely concurred . . . as do a number of highly qualified other researchers.


I think your assumptions are flawed.

.

reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic


imho

1. The Religion of Scientism plays the MOST ABSURD games vis a vis the UFO phenomena

2. The Religion of Scientism displays the MOST HYPOCRITICAL and self-contradictory explanations and blather about the phenomena.

3. The Religion of Scientism offers the silliest "answers," assumptions, pontifications as though they were based on solid science instead of, in fact, being based on RELIGION OF SCIENTISM DOGMA that's in turn based on sky-hooks; Jell-O for foundations etc.

4. The Religion of Scientism demonstrates persistently--and has for 60 years--the most irrationally willfully blind and intolerant-of-facts perspectives on the phenomena--demonstrating that EVIDENTLY, the popes, bishops and faithful in the religion of scientism church of the pretend super-rationalists are MOST UNABLE TO HANDLE THE UFO FACTS.
.


Sigh.

reply to post by AQuestion


I understand what you're saying regarding complete dismissal where there very well could be a giant squid, or aliens, or, well, whatever.

As it applies to UFOs, please allow me to repeat, I do not deny that there IS a UFO phenomenon.
What that phenomenon IS, however, is yet to be defined, quantified, pinned to a wall and labelled.
When discussing the genuine UNKNOWN factor applicable to the UFO phenomenon, I'm referring to the minority 5% that are as of yet attributable to misidentification, hoax, or the other common findings.
When discussing the genuine UNKNOWN factor applicable to the UFO phenomenon, that 5%, I'm referring to those outliers.

Outliers aren't thrown away or zeroed out. Often enough it's the outliers that require resampling as a representative sample group their own. In the case of UFOs, such is the case; the outliers that have not been identified are the puzzling bits most interesting.

Now, as to your opinions about Roswell, please allow me to voice some issues that may, or may not be problems with your line of assertion.

1. General Ramey was Commanding General of the Eighth Air Force.
2. Project Mogul was a top secret project by the US Army Air Forces.

Air Force and Army Air Force? According some quick googling, on July 26, 20 days after the Roswell incident, President Harry S. Truman signed the National Security Act of 1947 into law, creating the Central Intelligence Agency, the Department of Defense, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the National Security Council.
It also made the Army Air Forces into a separate branch what we now know as The Air Force.

The question is, did General Ramey of the 8th Air Force have knowledge of the Top Secret project Mogul?
What were security clearances like then? Was Mogul compartmentalized and need to know where Ramey was not in the pool of need-to-knows?
If such was the case, then that could certainly account or him having zero knowledge of the project, and not returning the crashed balloon, if it was a crashed balloon.

These aspects are certain to have been discussed elsewhere, but, I've not seen such, and have only passing familiarity with Roswell in not having much interest in that case due the waters being quite thoroughly muddied, stirred, muddied, stirred, and muddied all the more.
You'd have better luck doing scuba for exotic coral reefs in an African mud wallow full of crocodiles and panicky thirsty wilderbeasts stamping about than in pulling much recognizable as undisputed fact out of Roswell.

As to Green Meteors, I'm fairly certain it's entirely possible.
1. You saw satellite fall/atmospheric entry where copper components and other combinations of alloys could very well produce a green color while burning.
2. You saw a Bolide (a type of meteor commonly called a fireball) which composition contained elements like copper that can burn green or blue in various conditions.
3. You saw the Space Shuttle Columbia Disaster but were non the wiser as to what it actually was? (I don't find this one to have very high probability, but I tossed it in anyway)

Whatever the case, Green "meteors" are possible. Depending the elemental composition, and whether the object entering the atmosphere and burning is a failed satellite, or elemental meteor, you can have near any color.

With enough knowledge concerning anything from chemistry, geology, astronomy, history, politics, engineering, anything really, the more knowledge you have, the more pieces you might fit together for reasonable explanations of things that might be entirely foreign concepts and quite unbelievable to others.
Often enough, if you know a little bit about a lot, you'll have just enough information to chase down solid reasonable answers to seemingly strange events.

Education is FREE. Accreditation isn't, but, education is. For instance; here's a link to 725 Free Online Courses from Major Universities.
All the core requisite courses are represented as well as concentrations and specializations in many cases.
Use it to your advantage. It's free.

reply to post by Druscilla


Dear Druscilla,

I thought better of you then to be so dismissive of me. Then again, I have had my nights too. I started by apologizing to you. I do not do that often. Sorry that you could not accept it better. Now my response. I also regret that you did not have the courage nor intellectual honesty to answer the questions I asked you.

I understand what you're saying regarding complete dismissal where there very well could be a giant squid, or aliens, or, well, whatever.

Again, you are dismissive. These things were not coulds, there are and exist and we know it at least in regards to giant squid and gorillas or do you not think those things are? You said "could", what a very safe answer and how very not true. If you pervert logic in the beginning to prove your points, why should I believe anything you say? Again, not "could", are.

Outliers aren't thrown away or zeroed out.

That is just untrue. Research outliers and see what is recommended. I have and have dealt with them.

The question is, did General Ramey of the 8th Air Force have knowledge of the Top Secret project Mogul? What were security clearances like then? Was Mogul compartmentalized and need to know where Ramey was not in the pool of need-to-knows? If such was the case, then that could certainly account or him having zero knowledge of the project, and not returning the crashed balloon, if it was a crashed balloon.

You disappoint me. Do you really believe that General Raney didn't military protocol? If he didn't know what it was, it was his job to find out. It could have been Russian. See how fearful you are of even looking for the truth? You cheat your own logic, if it was just a balloon, why did the government say it was Mogul? Why have you not thought deeper about these things? You like the answers you feel comfortable with,

Whatever the case, Green "meteors" are possible. Depending the elemental composition, and whether the object entering the atmosphere and burning is a failed satellite, or elemental meteor, you can have near any color.

I know you are smart but you ignored my point, It was the ladies reaction that was interesting, not the color of the object.

Text

Education is FREE. Accreditation isn't, but, education is. For instance; here's a link to 725 Free Online Courses from Major Universities. All the core requisite courses are represented as well as concentrations and specializations in many cases. Use it to your advantage. It's free.

How very condescending. I have a three degrees including a doctorate and multiple national recognitions. Hi. Lets ignore me, tell me how you are better educated than Dr. Vallee. I will wait because you are not. Will you really change your opinion because someone with more degrees or a higher IQ tells you that you are wrong?

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by Druscilla

 

OK. Some good points there.

I just take issue with trying to throw the baby out with the bath . . . with trying to black wash all UFO and experiencer reports as

"sleep paralysis" etc. etc. etc. whether reproduced SIMILARLY [virtually never identically] in the lab.

There's PLENTY of solid evidence of FAR MORE going on than such 'pretended safe' explanations support in the least degree.

I realize that the 'super rationalists,' 'naturalists,' 'religion of scientism' etc. etc. blokes have a BIG interest in neutering to destroying anything spiritually evil . . . or even anything purportedly super tech or supernatural about the UFO phenomena.

However, facts are stubborn things. And many DETAILS even--whether from the trace landing cases or the experiencer abduction narratives . . . MANY DETAILS are incredibly persistent across all cultures; decades; all socio-economic groups; all education groups etc. imho, That incredible wealth of detail is simply not present in the more mundane explanations regardless of lab experiments or not.

Space Alien Abduction Phenomenon: Yes, it's interesting how as human beings we're all essentially wired the same regardless of culture or socioeconomic status, region, race, etc., and similar neurochemical states will invariably result in very similar internal subjective experiences.
Take a pill for a headache in the USA and headache goes away.
Different person takes the same kind of pill for headache in Japan and headache goes away.
Predictable results.

It's kinda WHY medicine actually works.

So, yeah, similar intercranial journeys DO occur.
Falling dreams? Everyone has them. Does it mean some unknown agency or force is picking people up and dropping them from great heights in their sleep?
NO.
Flying dreams as well; WE ALL have them.
Does it mean some foreign agency is kidnapping every human on the planet and taking them to some other planet where unassisted human flight is possible?
NO.

We're all wired the same, so, we all can expect to have similar experiences across borders, languages, oceans, and cultures.

This is why we have such similar experiences described across such a wide range of subjects.

Sleep paralysis happens and there are a set series of expected experiences that go along with it, all transcending cultural barriers.

But, it would seem, some would rather turn a blind eye to the commonality of man, in search of some invisible untouchable something that will never be accounted for other than inside the human mind.

Psychology, out of all the sciences, has had the greatest successes in describing, testing and replicating these experiences that are more intercranial than extraterrestrial.

UFOs, on the other hand, are an entirely different and separate thing.
It's an Unknown, and I'm more than happy to concede that Aliens might be attributable, but, only so long as ALL other possibilities and probabilities are also included to maintain objectivity.

Additionally, as a note of caution, using pet words like "Scientism" and other similar vernacular isn't really all that conducive to civilized discussion. It shows a definite bias, and does nothing for anyone as far as promoting attitudes of understanding in the light of such adversarial and almost hostile naming conventions.
Do as you will though.

There are people, some write on the boards, who have literally been taken physically, and their families, even generationally, on UFO's not made by humans. And in some cases, have wounds, and share memories.

reply to post by AQuestion


I feel you've misinterpreted the entire spirit of my last reply to you.
I meant no ill.

Perhaps we have a language barrier?

Perhaps I've been multitasking too many items and did not apply the right inflection.
Whatever the case I meant no insult or impoliteness.

We also write not only for each other, but everyone who reads these forums.
The link, and some statements regarding education were primarily for the readership.
No condescension was intended. It was meant to be helpful as a service to everyone.
How can free education be bad?
I don't know everything. I facilitate that resource myself. New classes are added all the time.

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic

 

imho

1. The Religion of Scientism plays the MOST ABSURD games vis a vis the UFO phenomena

2. The Religion of Scientism displays the MOST HYPOCRITICAL and self-contradictory explanations and blather about the phenomena.

3. The Religion of Scientism offers the silliest "answers," assumptions, pontifications as though they were based on solid science instead of, in fact, being based on RELIGION OF SCIENTISM DOGMA that's in turn based on sky-hooks; Jell-O for foundations etc.

4. The Religion of Scientism demonstrates persistently--and has for 60 years--the most irrationally willfully blind and intolerant-of-facts perspectives on the phenomena--demonstrating that EVIDENTLY, the popes, bishops and faithful in the religion of scientism church of the pretend super-rationalists are MOST UNABLE TO HANDLE THE UFO FACTS.

BO, I totally agree. But I think that the certainly exemplary process called the scientific method, has been hijacked and diverted away from these subjects purposefully by a Cabal of bullies who are pretending to represent science.

It is not science which is the problem, but a group of religious people who have hijacked science and conflated THEIR religion, as if it WAS science. They rule the hallowed halls of academia just as the church did 200 years ago. No different, just a different religion now.

Most solid ethical scientists have no problem with UFO's and would like to know more. They just know that they stand to lose their jobs, tenure or reputation, through the influence of these very people, were they ever to seriously publicly even be associated with the topic.

So, in reality, I totally agree with your frustration. This group will obfuscate, cheat, lie, manipulate, staff an army of brainless acolytes spouting handbook one-liners, and even kill, in order to maintain their control on science.

But we are going to win.

go to 2:08 after tether breaks




NAMASTE*******

reply to post by Druscilla


Dear Druscilla,

We also write not only for each other, but everyone who reads these forums. The link, and some statements regarding education were primarily for the readership. No condescension was intended. It was meant to be helpful as a service to everyone. How can free education be bad?

If I misunderstood you I apologize again. I absolutely support higher education even if it doesn't "pay off". I understand talking to the forum and the person you are responding to. I do that in the faith forums. I am writing to both believers and non-believers at the same time. I hope we are good with one another, we simply disagree and that is okay.

Druscilla, I am telling you the truth about military protocol, ask anyone you know who was in the military. Read any of my posts, I don't get into aliens and UFOs. Still, my family all has secret or top clearances. Having said that, something is going on or and all is worthy of investigation.