Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Your argument only works if you take Origen's teachings as the absolute truth. He began his life in Alexandria receiving a classical Hellenistic (see Mystery Schools) education and was encouraged to study Christian scriptures.

My only argument was that Origen, an early Catholic church father taught reincarnation. Not that I follow the Catholic faith, I don't.

He lived around 184/5 ce which means he was hundreds of years removed from the days in which the faith was founded. The same arguments of the RCC corrupting teachings can be used against Origen as he did not have a uniform set of scriptures (aka Bible) from which to base his theories.

Origen, or Origen Adamantius, was a scholar, early Christian theologian and Church Father, who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria.

I also find it funny that you base your entire Biblical theory on one individual whom you think was reincarnated and apply it to everyone including all the souls which were said to be in the grave.

John the Baptist was the one person that Jesus claimed was reincarnated.

You completely avoid attempts to view the Bible in its entirety because your theory is not supported when viewed in this manner.

What body part did you pull nutty logic out of? Please do tell, the whole bible in it's entirety?

reply to post by windword


How can Origen be a Roman Catholic Church founder if there was no RCC for over 100 years after his death?

Now you are just making things up . . . .


EDIT
Ironically it was the wife of Justinius who egged on the banning of the reincarnation theory which was found in various communities and Christian denominations around 500ce.

She didn't like the idea of having bad karma in a future lifetime, which makes no sense seeing as there is a judgement in either interpretation of the rebirth.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Catholic doctrine teaches that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. It interprets the Confession of Peter as acknowledging Christ's designation of Apostle Peter and his successors to be the temporal head of his Church. Thus, it asserts that the Bishop of Rome has the sole legitimate claim to Petrine authority and the primacy due to the Roman Pontiff.[1] The Catholic Church claims legitimacy for its bishops and priests via the doctrine of apostolic succession and authority of the Pope via the unbroken line of popes, claimed as successors to Simon Peter
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Catholic doctrine teaches that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. It interprets the Confession of Peter as acknowledging Christ's designation of Apostle Peter and his successors to be the temporal head of his Church. Thus, it asserts that the Bishop of Rome has the sole legitimate claim to Petrine authority and the primacy due to the Roman Pontiff.[1] The Catholic Church claims legitimacy for its bishops and priests via the doctrine of apostolic succession and authority of the Pope via the unbroken line of popes, claimed as successors to Simon Peter
en.wikipedia.org...

Okay . . . so where is Origen a Pope and where does the RCC teach reincarnation, seeing as this is the point of view you approve of?

Please enlighten me on how this helps your theory.

EDIT
Since Wikipedia is an extremely accurate source;
en.wikipedia.org...

In Origen Christianity blended with the pagan philosophy

in which lived the desire for truth and the longing after God. Origen had many admirers and followers, one in particular, Dionysius of Alexandria, who caused controversy throughout Libya in 259 due to his theology in regards to the unity of the trinity.[55] Three centuries later his very name was stricken from the books of the Church; yet in the monasteries of the Greeks his influence still lived on, as the spiritual father of Greek monasticism.

Hmmmmmm, seems legit.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

EDIT Ironically it was the wife of Justinius who egged on the banning of the reincarnation theory which was found in various communities and Christian denominations around 500ce. She didn't like the idea of having bad karma in a future lifetime, which makes no sense seeing as there is a judgement in either interpretation of the rebirth.

Told ya!

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Okay . . . so where is Origen a Pope and where does the RCC teach reincarnation, seeing as this is the point of view you approve of? Please enlighten me on how this helps your theory.

Go read the OP.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Okay . . . so where is Origen a Pope and where does the RCC teach reincarnation, seeing as this is the point of view you approve of? Please enlighten me on how this helps your theory.

Go read the OP.

You just quoted the authority which the RCC claims to have, their teachings deny reincarnation so you really have not answered the question.

When Jesus promised eternal life, was he speaking of a universal truth, or some magical, spiritual life giving spell, that only Jesus can impart? If Jesus was correct, and all the "born again" are bestowed with eternal life, and are free as the wind, is it possible that those souls could choose to reincarnate in a new earthly body?

umm what . . . . you know the Bible best but you ignore statements like these that directly contradict what you are claiming here.

1 John 2:15–17

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe

 

Nope. Adjensen lost that debate. Origen taught reincarnation!

If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it; then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things, their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing. Origen
www.newadvent.org...

edit on 10-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

"Nope?"

Smiling, no he didn't, Adjensen clearly showed your error in trying to sell Reincarnation. And people can read the beliefs of the first Christians. I posted one, Irenaeus' words and there are others, plural. You go against Christ's teachings not them. Do I have to find the correction of Origen by the Church? It may of been posted already.

New Agers and their goofy beliefs. You didn't put up my quote on Our Lord's Resurrection. And more proof, no reincarnation of OT Fathers Abraham, Moses, Elijah.

You do not what people to read it, obvious, windword.

windword:
"My only argument was that Origen, an early Catholic church father taught reincarnation. Not that I follow the Catholic faith, I don't."

You're a New Ager, whatever! Who is going to believe you about anything concerning the faith? You just admitted.

It is fact, the Church NEVER taught Reincarnation. You pick one fella (Origen) who was correct by the Church for his mistaken belief.

We can know God's plan, It has been revealed. Come along, you can change.


God bless you,

colbe

reply to post by colbe


What's "goofy" is believing everyone who disagrees with you ends up burning forever. What's "goofy" is believing a guy walked on water, turned water into wine, and sat in a cave for 3 days rotting away only to rise from the dead. What's "goofy" is believing snakes and bushes can talk and that god chose a tiny group of people to be his chosen people knowing all along they would disobey him at every turn, all while calling them "holy".

You are the one with the unnatural, "goofy" beliefs, but you're too blinded by pride/brainwashing to see just how goofy they really are.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by colbe

 

What's "goofy" is believing everyone who disagrees with you ends up burning forever. What's "goofy" is believing a guy walked on water, turned water into wine, and sat in a cave for 3 days rotting away only to rise from the dead. What's "goofy" is believing snakes and bushes can talk and that god chose a tiny group of people to be his chosen people knowing all along they would disobey him at every turn, all while calling them "holy".

You are the one with the unnatural, "goofy" beliefs, but you're too blinded by pride/brainwashing to see just how goofy they really are.

You again confirmed the faith, it can't be "goofy."

98.9% of documented, science tested miracles point to the faith, to Jesus Christ. The testimony over 2000 years. All those Christians are liars? I do not read of a soul giving their life, dying for New Age. News of a confirmed second miracle, prayers for the intercession of beloved Pope John Paul II. Remember, before Pope John Paul II had Parkinsons? I am sure he offered every moment of his illness up for souls.

What you going to do 3NL? Keep up with your protest, instead, come to the faith brother.

No one has 'brainwashed" you into denying the faith. Find another negative word, no, just kidding.


God bless you,

"Jesus" didn't walk on water. He swam. People in the Middle East didn't know this was possible so they thought he 'walked on water'.

"Jesus" didn't turn water into wine. Either:

TAURUS
FOOD OF WISDOM: BREAD
DRINK OF WISDOM: WATER

PISCES
FOOD OF WISDOM: FISH
DRINK OF WISDOM: WINE

Him turning 'water' into wine is the transition from Taurus to Pisces. Where the Wisdom of the old age (bread) was washed down by the 'wine' of the new age.

Turning 'water into wine' is terminology for the change of the Ages.

Also "JESUS CHRIST" translates to 'Will your authority (lord/father) save you anointed one(Messiah)?

It is a TAUNT in the shape of a question that they used to keep the REAL man that the Bible was based on nameless.

Anyone who believes in the Bible being literal is crazy.

You are in for a rude shock cause the world is about to awaken Colbe.

There is no salvation for people such as yourself. Only 'REVELATION' of the truth. It's written in your very own Bible in a book called 'Revelation'.

The most foolish men, have the furthest to fall.

Here; read the REAL lords prayer.

This is all you need to know. But will never listen to:

Matthew 6:5

When you do good for others, be not like the hypocrites who love to parade this all upon a stage as performance for all to see. For I say to you the act itself should be all the reward you need.

What you should do when you perform good deeds for another, is try to do so anonymously. For all that you give without expectation of reward, should bring reward within itself.

And when you carry out such deeds, do not brag of it to many in hope that word may reach their ears.

And you will come to see the light of God, to see every question answered before it is asked.

To become of God, know of this;

'Our divinity is of the light, holy are we all. Come to know this light, you shall become such light. Be it inside of you, as it is outside of you. Let us find, what we seek to find. To deliver us from the trespassers, so we may know those who trespassed against us. Lead not by those who gave in to temptation, but the ones who delivered us from darkness. So that in us will be the light, in all its power and glory forever. Amen.

reply to post by colbe

reply to post by colbe

"Nope?" Smiling, no he didn't, Adjensen clearly showed your error in trying to sell Reincarnation. And people can read the beliefs of the first Christians. I posted one, Irenaeus' words and there are others, plural. You go against Christ's teachings not them. Do I have to find the correction of Origen by the Church? It may of been posted already.

Nope. all those Catholic apologetics sites and people claiming that Origen didn't teach reincarnation either forgot to burn or missed Jerome's letter while they were carefully trying to rewrite and revise their own history.

Jerome states that Origen not only taught pre-existence, but reincarnation too. I don't know why the church refuses to acknowledge that truth.

Here's more on when and why the Catholic church changed it's mind on reincarnation and Origen's writings.

reply to post by colbe

You're a New Ager, whatever!

This is the dawning of the "new age" of Aquarius, that Jesus spoke of:

And He said to them, "When you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house that he enters. Luke 22:10

Matthew 28:20
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The water-bearer has risen already.

You need only look at the floods that now plague the whole world.

That will not stop until the Vatican admits the truth of the feminine divine that they know well of and are hiding.

reply to post by BornOfSin


Nice observation.

Off topic: It's interesting to note that Alister Crowley predicted the that the "New Age" would take about 200 years to be completely ushered in, and that during that time we would see Homosexual and Bisexuality become accepted and that the "One Eyed God" would be worshiped worldwide, ie Television!? Computer screen!?

"One-eyed God" refers to the 'all-seeing eye' the one that represents the power of the divine masculine.

There are actually two eyes. But they suppress the feminine eye.

This is the key to their power in this world. Without the feminine eye of love, that is well documented in the correctly interpreted Bible (they intentionally removed it in the commonly translated texts) the world is out of balance.

The only way this world will begin to heal is when people understand the divine feminine and the balance of power is restored to 'both' eyes.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by BornOfSin

 

Nice observation.

Off topic: It's interesting to note that Alister Crowley predicted the that the "New Age" would take about 200 years to be completely ushered in, and that during that time we would see Homosexual and Bisexuality become accepted and that the "One Eyed God" would be worshiped worldwide, ie Television!? Computer screen!?

"God" is actually a balance of masculine and feminine.

The fact the feminine is left out of Christianity by the interpretations of Romans who didn't want women to be considered to have any power, means that we worship a 'one-eyed God'

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by BornOfSin

 

Nice observation.

Off topic: It's interesting to note that Alister Crowley predicted the that the "New Age" would take about 200 years to be completely ushered in, and that during that time we would see Homosexual and Bisexuality become accepted and that the "One Eyed God" would be worshiped worldwide, ie Television!? Computer screen!?

I agree with you about the new age, but your idea of the 'one eyed god' being a television or computer screen is hilarious.

Have you read his material? He offers fairly clear examples of what the 'one eyed god' is.

I also agree with Jesus referencing the age of Aquarius. Many people don't like to accept that the Bible has many references to the constellations even though the OT has several passages which directly discuss them.

reply to post by windword


Excellent thread and post.

You ask the right questions and in the proper manner for a response.

Your life (soul = body; spirit = mind) is created at the moment of your physical conception in your mother's womb according to scripture.

God alone has eternally existed, no other being has or will fill this role in existance.

Jesus Christ also was created at His conception, He did not eternally exist as His father does.

When you die, your body returns to the Earth (ashes to ashes) and your mind (with no life in it, no conciousness of itself) is set aside by God and preserved for a future time. Even Jesus Christ had to die (no life in Him) for a 72 hour period of time (Sunset ending Passover on Wednesday - Sunset ending the Sabbath on Saturday). His spirit did not ascend up to Heaven until after being dead for 3 days and 3 nights. Then God gave His spirit eternal life as a reward for living a physical life without sin.

Mankind has a different path then the son of man did to achieve salvation (become part of Elohim). We live a physical life full of sin, we cannot receive eternal life until we have been transformed by the renewing of our minds from carnal to spiritual (selfish to selfless). This tranformation takes a lifetime of work, trial, testing; molding and fashioning our way of thinking into the spiritual image of God (Elohim).

In this present age, about to end; it is not the purpose for mankind to acheive salvation as a whole, only 144,000 individual minds called out of this present age to become part of the Kingdom of God on Earth at the return of Jesus Christ have entered into judgement in this age, and have had their way of thinking changed over their entire lives into thinking in unity and oneness with the mind of God.

For the vast majority of mankind they are to live this first life in this present age in the manner they determine for themselves to be "right".

Then they die their first death.

Then after the 1000 year reign of the Kingdom of God on Earth, all mankind that has ever lived and died, except those already in Elohim; i.e. 144,001; or those called into God's church who turned against the work of Jesus Christ bringing them to repentance thus becoming anti-christ, will be resurrected to a second physical life.

God, who has preserved your mind (spirit) since the moment of your physical first death (whether now or 300 years ago, or in ancient Egypt) will place your mind (spirit) in a new physical body, if you died of old age, your new body will be young and healthy, if you died as a child, you are given the body of a child to continue your developement. During this age (Great White Thrown Judgement) mankind will learn God's ways, all truth will be revealed and the greatest lesson possible will be learned by all mankind collectively.

"My way, lived in my first life is wrong and leads to pain and suffering and death; God's way, lived in my second life is right and leads to peace, prosparity and eternal life".

The same mind (spirit) in you will experience and learn first hand the blessings of obeying God's laws (seen in the perfect world experienced in your second physical life) and the curses of disobeying them (seen in the horrors of the world you live in today). In this way only can God, though personal experience inside each mind he created to become part of Elohim over time, bring all mankind to willing choose to always follow His eternal laws of peace, balance, life and love. Only then can selfish physical mannkind be qualified to have all things placed under their control, mankind in their present state would destroy all life if given God's power without God's perfect plan for the salvation of all mankind.

To summarize.

- No life eternally exists except God the father, creator of all things.

- In God's plan for the salvation of all mankind, most were determined to live 2 physical lives, one of their own free choosing (my way, this age) and one of God's choosing (Great White Thrown Judgment, after the 1000 year reign).

- Both lives and the lessons learned throughout the process will collectively bring all mankind to "know" why God's laws are blessings and willing choose to obey them forever, thus allowing us to become eternal beings at one with the Elohim of God. As children and heirs with Christ to all things, God is reproducing Himself in mankind.

God Bless,