Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by windword


there's no reason to assume he sent the letter AFTER his "abduction"...I made a previous post about this....couple pages back

A2D

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Well, Elijah was taken in 2 Kings, Chapter 2. In 2 King Chapter 3, immediately after the abduction story, Jehoram took the throne, following his father's death. In 2 Chronicles Chapter 21, long into his reign, and after lots of building, warring and what not, he received the letter.

11 He (Jehoram) had also built high places on the hills of Judah and had caused the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves and had led Judah astray. 12 Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah.

Elijah's abduction and the timeline of Jehoram's reign and the letter don't match.

reply to post by windword


I haven't read that are you sure that it wasn't Elisha instead of Elijah ? Also Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him is all I have read . Still with Elijah the description of his departure begs another question and that is are they connected to God? It would seem so !

reply to post by SimonPeter


I know, when I first learned of that letter, I had to double check that it wasn't Elisha. But, the Bible says the letter was from Elijah. Biblical typo? I don't think so.

What do mean by connected to God? Do you think that he may have been like Enoch, one of "great men of renown"? Enoch's father, Lamech, was afraid of him and thought that he was conceived of an angel.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

Well, Elijah was taken in 2 Kings, Chapter 2. In 2 King Chapter 3, immediately after the abduction story, Jehoram took the throne, following his father's death. In 2 Chronicles Chapter 21, long into his reign, and after lots of building, warring and what not, he received the letter.

11 He (Jehoram) had also built high places on the hills of Judah and had caused the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves and had led Judah astray. 12 Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah.

Elijah's abduction and the timeline of Jehoram's reign and the letter don't match.

From page 5....

We only know that Elijah was taken sometime during the reign of King Jehoram of Israel. Since King Jehoram of Judah (who received the letter from Elijah) had already been reigning 2-5(depends) years by the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne, Elijah could have easily sent his letter to King Jehoram of Judah before his ascension into heaven at 2 Kings 2:11.

reply to post by JustinBradford

I think too often Christians ignore the roots of their faith, the Hebrew faith.

As a Christian Mystic, I see the Hebrew Faith and much of the writings of the OT, as an old dead horse. A historical record of how things once were, people's ideas about God, 800-some-odd rules to live by, animal sacrifices, murders, wars, a religion that was as good as dead and did not produce hardly any Enlightenment, Saints, Union w/ God.

Then BOOM, Jesus shows up and flips the whole proverbial table on the Jews. Basically saying "Forget about all the old dead ways. If you want the truth and the life ...this is how ...follow my lead..... or else remain kicking a dead horse."

Anyway, my only thought on the subject of preexistence is that maybe every one of us is incarnate of an angel who never dies and who's existed since the day angels were created. It's just a thought, nothing more. Remember Lot and the rest of the residents of Sodom recognized the two angels as humans, although no one specific, just humans. Point is, they weren't winged spectacularly glowing orbs or morbidly obscene beasts. They were people, like you and me. Or maybe not, just trying to offer new alternatives here.

After going through a bunch of mystical experiences from being a Christian, I clearly remember having pre-existed.

Also when Jesus was around, people just saw him as man. Nobody could tell other wise that he was anything more than an average Joe until he taught and performed miracles ...though even that didn't sway many

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Yes, I read your reply. At the time, I decided to just let it be, and move on. But since it came up again, with SimonPeter, I asserted my thoughts again.

To me, it's clear that Jehoram took the throne immediately after Elijah's abduction. It is the very next thing that happens afterward, as the Bible records it in 2 Kings chapter 3. Much later in 2Chronicles chapter 21, well into his reign, he recieves the letter. There is no reason to believe Elijah didn't come back. Enoch did. Otherwise we wouldn't have his writings.

But we can "agree 2 disagree". My point, at the time, was that Elijah did, in fact die, when it was suggested that he never died. I argued that the Bible never suggested that Elijah was revered for never having died, something that I think it would mention, if that were the case.

reply to post by windword


Yes, we must agree to disagree, because I also think it would be pertinent information if Elijah would have died....but we don't see mention of that either....

A2D

reply to post by windword


You will read that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses during the last days in Jerusalem that Satan will kill after their 42 months of witnessing ( Revelations 11 verse 3 thru--- ) . Thus it is appointed unto every man to die once . Every man !

reply to post by windword


I think one of the things you will find is that the bible is not always chronologically in order . Revelations has some chapters that are talking about the same thing but 7 chapters apart . Chapter 7 and chapter 14 for example . Can you give the chapter and verse where you learned about the letter ?

reply to post by SimonPeter


You will also read that Jesus said that John the Baptist.was Elijah, regardless of what the later Pauline scripture says. John was beheaded and died. If Elijah is killed as one of the two witnesses, it will be his second, or third death, at least.

reply to post by SimonPeter


Sure!

2 Chronicles 21:12 is where the letter is talked about.

2 Kings 2 is where Elijah is taken, and Kings 3 is where Jehoram assumes the throne.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Elijah wasn't the only prophet whose death wasn't mentioned in the bible. Just because his death isn't mentioned doesn't mean he didn't die.

Seth, Melchizedek, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel are just a few of the prophets whose deaths are never mentioned along with Elijah. Do you believe they never died as well?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


The fact that his death is not mentioned, but it is mentioned that he is taken away....lends credence to the belief that he didn't....none of these other prophets have any such event happening...

A2D

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


So you don't think Elijah ever died? If that's the case, do you believe he was more than just a man? If not, how do you align him never dying with Hebrews 9:27?

If he was just a man, then according to the bible, he should have died at some point, no? Because Hebrews says all men are destined to die at least once.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I believe he will be one of two witnesses....and the beast will kill him...that will be his "once appointed death"...

A2D

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


So are you telling me that my discussion of the symbology of Shiva isn't esoteric enough for you? I was a Theosophist for probably all of 6 months officially. I haven't claimed to read all of his stuff. I told you I have "Masters and The Path", which speaks mainly of the relationship between guru and chela.
In Theosophy there is a lot of talk about things like the solar logoi, Manus, and whatnot.
I googled that five pillars and five pointed star thing and came up with Leadbeater links but not the specific definition for the five pillars and 72 virgins as related to astrology. Maybe you can point me in the right direction. I did find a great text of Leadbeater on the sacredtexts site where you can also find neat stuff like "Brother of the Third Degree" and my personal favorite, "Unveiled Mysteries".
I also read an article by a Theosophist on the Hidden Imam. I have been unable since then to find it anywhere on the Net, but basically he said that the Hidden Imam thing is black magic. And it's not surprising is it, when people like Amadinejad prance about talking about Hidden Imams reappearing in time to do destructive things to entire countries.
My feeling is that early Theosophists were serious about doing good will on a large scale, but gave credence to an International organization which since has seemed to have been hijacked by nefarious forces and communist intrigues. This is ever the way of the dark ones.
I had read also that the muslim brotherhood has a Masonic connection, I believe it was Eastern Star. And that is also not surprising since many political and controlling Elite activities today have esoteric luminaries behind them.
The true Brotherhood of man would never support the political intrigues which we see today spurring revolutionary activities which are not of the light but are devised for the purpose of further enslaving the populations of earth.
I, like many others who delve into things like reincarnation, view the historical propensity of the Roman Catholic Church to anathematize the Origens of the world for teaching preexistence of the soul among other things as simply another attempt by evil men to enslave masses of people for the purpose of control and power.

reply to post by windword

Is a shiny, brand new, innocent soul created every time a woman's egg is fertilized? If so, doesn't that make the soul a biological manifestation? How then can one justify the belief that the soul doesn't die, but the body does?

Well, from the Christian context, since that is the direction you chose for the thread, how can you reconcile your above statement with the Biblical narrative that humanity began with Adam and Eve?

How are there 7 billion people on the planet today if it all started with two people and souls are not created by God with every birth?

And for your question I can reconcile that with physics. The spirit/soul of a person is energy. Which according to the laws of thermodynamics cannot be destroyed. And according to quantum physics is eternal. Since the spirit/soul has no mass it cannot be affected by time.

reply to post by windword


Did you notice that in 2nd Kings 3 that Elijah is not mentioned only Elisha . Elijah was a very big figure and when people saw an godly authoritive man they often referred to them as Elijah or Moses even though there was no way they knew what they looked like . The chronology that has been attributed to the Bible some 2800 years ago by scholars of the last few hundred years could be in error by a few years . And the similarities in the names could have caused a problem .

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


I have to believe that Enoch will be the other since Moses has been dead for centuries .Moses also was prohibited from entering the promised land by God for displeasing God when he struck the rock in anger without praying to God first .

Elijah is named as a witness and the only man alive that still will die is Enoch .