Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by AQuestion


So if someone doesn't act on those thoughts, it doesn't matter in the end? That doesn't seem very fair in my opinion.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by AQuestion

 

So if someone doesn't act on those thoughts, it doesn't matter in the end? That doesn't seem very fair in my opinion.

Didn't your parents ever teach you that life is not fair?

But on a serious note, Jesus said that sin is when you SERIOUSLY give thought to breaking God's law. Matthew 5:28

But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart

All sin starts as thought...Thought isn't sin though. A fleeting thought is temptation... We have to have the thoughts to have the temptation....A lingering thought(temptation) that we hold onto and contemplate and envision is sin....

All sin is the result of temptation...Acting on that temptation is the result of opportunity but you don't necessarily need the opportunity to sin in your heart.

In fact, Jesus was tempted while he spent time in the desert...but yet we're told he was without sin. This is a perfect example of temptation (or fleeting thoughts of sin) not actually being the equivalent of sin....

A2D

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

I mean what does his serpent, clothing, 3rd eye, and title destroyer of worlds mean.

Do you really want me to go into it here. I thought the discussion of Kundalini was descriptive enough as it is. The 5 pillars of Islam and 5 pointed star with the astrology I hadn't read about though. I have Alice Bailey's "Esoteric Astrology" and Leadbeater's "The Masters and The Path".

If you are up on Manley Hall then reincarnation should be a no brainer. I can see that you are interested in symbology though.
OK I'll give one hint...the leopard skin represents mastery over the animal nature. Raising the kundalini is a big part of that, but Shiva was an ascetic, as was Buddha when he was searching. In the system of yoga, we have methods for the discipline of the body and mind.
My description of the three channels of kundalini was actually told to me by a chiropractor, as the symbol for doctors and chiropractors is the cadeucus with the serpent as representative of the life force within the body.
Brahmins who are devotees of Shiva are often seen carrying a trident.
Wikipedia has this to say about the Trisula or trident

In the human body, the trishula also represents the place where the three main nadis, or energy channels (ida, pingala and shushmana) meet at the brow. Shushmana, the central one, continues upward to the 7th chakra, or energy center, while the other two end at the brow, there the 6th chakra is located. The trisula's central point represents Shushmana, and that is why it is longer than the other two, representing ida and pingala.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Nataraja form of Shiva is also known as Dancing Shiva representing the cosmic dance of creation. (and there's a whole story about how goddess Kali stopped the destruction of Shiva)
Ok so I guess that was more than one hint.
Christianity may not focus on reincarnation, but there are still references alluding to karma and reincarnation.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Dear ThirdEyeofHorus,

Jesus did bring us forgiveness of sins but we still must fulfill the law. Still Jesus is a great Bodhisattva and did make the sacrifice for all mankind.

That is just silly. Never have a bad thought, that is what would be required to fulfill all of the law. Please tell me you have never a bad thought, I will be impressed. Why would Jesus need to die for our sins if we could be perfect and could keep trying to be perfect forever through reincarnation. Your moniker alone kind of says where you are coming from. Peace.

Did Jesus not bring us forgiveness of sins? What was all that "neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more"...???? Or did you mean that you believe in the vicarious atonement, that since Jesus died for our sins we don't have to do anything but believe. Yes there are some statements that allude to believing in Jesus, but are you trying to tell me that "every jot and tittle" is not in the bible or has no meaning or relevance? Even Jesus told us he did not come to change the laws. Jesus and Buddha both embodied compassion and both offered a way of salvation but it doesn't mean we don't have to do the work. If you don't believe me, let's see how many incarnations it takes you.
I could tell you some more stuff but I'm not sure I want to go with it on this board and I'm not too sure you would hear it even if I said it.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Dear ThirdEyeofHorus,

Jesus did bring us forgiveness of sins but we still must fulfill the law. Still Jesus is a great Bodhisattva and did make the sacrifice for all mankind.

That is just silly. Never have a bad thought, that is what would be required to fulfill all of the law. Please tell me you have never a bad thought, I will be impressed. Why would Jesus need to die for our sins if we could be perfect and could keep trying to be perfect forever through reincarnation. Your moniker alone kind of says where you are coming from. Peace.

Did Jesus not bring us forgiveness of sins? What was all that "neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more"...???? Or did you mean that you believe in the vicarious atonement, that since Jesus died for our sins we don't have to do anything but believe. Yes there are some statements that allude to believing in Jesus, but are you trying to tell me that "every jot and tittle" is not in the bible or has no meaning or relevance? Even Jesus told us he did not come to change the laws. Jesus and Buddha both embodied compassion and both offered a way of salvation but it doesn't mean we don't have to do the work. If you don't believe me, let's see how many incarnations it takes you.
I could tell you some more stuff but I'm not sure I want to go with it on this board and I'm not too sure you would hear it even if I said it.

Dear ThirdEyeofHorus,

I love puzzles, if I answer you, will you answer me? No, you will not. Oh, maybe you will, let us be tested by others over whether or not we answer each other. Willing to play?

reply to post by AQuestion


I've already been tested on my knowledge on this very thread. I contemplated a while before giving another my answer on Shiva. What was it you were asking me to prove? I must be needing rest. Perhaps after some rest I can think more clearly and with a fresh mind.
I did ask if you believed in vicarious atonement.
I do not. It doesn't mean I don't think I need help. But I do think we need to do the work. I think we need to do karma-yoga. We need to do good works. We need to be responsible for our actions.

Good works will not save anyone from this system we are in. Faith that Jesus died on the cross to give us way out of this sin cycle. The good works will come after you accept Jesus as your savior because you will realize that there is only suffering. Internal and external and you will be born again into this cycle until you accept his word or you give into the sin and face worse torment than you have now.

I think that for most people it is better to not teach of reincarnation. It is harder to understand everything that has taken place. Some of us will always search for the long answer but we are limited by time and deception. Accept Jesus and go to Heaven if you don't then go to hell. k.i.s.s.

Very interesting, I'm a christian and i don't shut the idea down completely. It's something we need to have a hard long look at, with an open mind and be ready to accept it if be true.

And the doctrine of hell (for those who don't know about it) was not believed by early christians. No etymologist can trace a word meaning the 'eternal' we understand today earlier than the second century. (tentmaker.org...)

Hell is a man made doctrine, Jesus is the saviour of all mankind. To do more research go to tentmaker.org

reply to post by pthena

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by windword

What is "TBA"?

To be announced.

The Moratorium is real. I called it myself here: Moratorium on secret cult's discussion of B word

It was the people of Israel that are (still yet) to get a new name

Rather than circumvent the moratorium of the B word, I will merely discuss generic Hebrew fables, and give due mention of a non-cult member from whom I paraphrase.

I believe you. Would you believe me when I say that your moratorium placed an emphasis on the "B" word that made me take a look at thing in a way I've never seen it before. You, sir, have blown my mind.

John the "B", practiced and taught the "B" ritual, which represents rebirth, and he was the embodiment of rebirth in Elijah.

Israel the man got that name. He used to be Jacob, who did his brother great harm with regards to a birthright. The brother Esau became a great nation that could have destroyed the family of Jacob, as would have been within the code to do.

Jacob in fear of death to himself and family, wrestled a man all night, as if wrestling god. Therefore he got a new name. Esau did not retaliate against Jacob/Israel, but received him as a brother.

My opinion is this: such renamings are not a matter of blood inheritance. They seem to be the result of individual life experiences and dealings with the gods. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

Thanks for that ^^^ I've always had a crush on Esau. He was the "bigger" man in that tale, for sure.

You've given me a lot to think about in that analogy, wrestling an angel, new man, new name, rebirth and "B".

Text During the time period of the life of Jesus, reincarnation was a widely accepted view of many, including some Jews. Jewish historian Josephus writes, in his Antiquities of the Jewish people (18, 1, 3) that reincarnation was taught widely in his day.

reply to post by windword


I don't understand Josephus the way that you have cited. Josephus being of the priestly order himself wrote in that mindset. In Book XVIII, Chapter 1 and articles 2 - 5 Josephus compares the three main sects of Judaism at this particular time. He is showing, here, the beliefs of a general resurrection of the Pharisees in comparison to the disbelief of a resurrection of the Sadducees and describes the third sect which is that of the Essens which numbered about 4,000.
The Pharisees believed that the spirits of the dead souls were contained underground and that the corrupted spirit would be punished eternally. Remember that Josephus was born about five or more years after Jesus was put to death so in all fairness he does realize the doctrine of Jesus. It was the common belief of the Pharisees to believe that within this underground confinement of the spirits of the Hebrews were several sections of unknown measure and that the righteous spirit of a person would resurrect in a last day in which the spirit would reunite with the dead soul and enjoy another physical life of bliss and then eventually die once more and enter into the bundle of life in eternal bliss as a disembodied entity (spirit).

In all fairness this is not reincarnation in the sense that you portray incarnation. This resurrection which Josephus is describing is a one time happening for only the righteous Jew and not a repetitive reincarnation philosophy of the same spirit. The unrighteous have no recourse than to be imprisoned forever. The resurrection is that where the spirit and soul are reunited whereas reincarnation is when the spirit is placed into a different soul than it had previously. There is a vast difference and purpose.

Josephus was well aware of the doctrine of Jesus which the first Christian church was teaching at the time he choose to describe this doctrine. Being of the priestly order himself, he chose to ignore this Christian sect and did not, through his own disbelief, recognize Christianity as being anything other than rebels. To be fair, there were some Jews that did subscribe to reincarnation but they were mystical Jews of Kabbalah which is mostly written in the Zohar. The mystics were few in number and did not influence the mainstream Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essens so it is not fair to assume that it had a hold in Judaism.

It is also very interesting to note that in 78 CE it is estimated that Josephus was about 40 years old and that Jesus had been killed some 32 or 36 prior to this. As Josephus has written the doctrines of the Pharisees himself and described that the righteous and unrighteous spirits are contained in the earth, then when and how were the Jews dead spirits suddenly found to be in heaven? What changed with this doctrine to allow the spirit to live in a heavenly abode? Is this only for the reincarnated of the mystics?

We understand the doctrine of Jesus and how He, upon His death, descended to Sheol and brought the righteous spirits out of Sheol and into the Kingdom of Heaven (New Jerusalem). But we are not aware that any other means was given to the Jews to change the doctrine of Josephus.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by windword

 

Who do you think was resurrected at the time of Jesus' death? He was very clear with the one on the cross next to him that he would be with him in heaven soon.

The Bible says that upon the death of Jesus, graves opened up, the dead were resurrected and many people saw them.

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

"It is appointed for a man to die once" is fairly clear and you quoted it. As for what is possible, anything is; but, the question is what Christians believe.

First of all, that was written by Paul and not said by Jesus. Paul has many opinions that I disagree with. Clearly, if you believe that the dead have been raised, Lazareth, the young man that Paul resurrected, the young boy that Elijah resurrected, etc. then you believe that a second death in one's life can happen. Furthermore, a "judgment" after death doesn't preclude the possibility that God can send a soul back to earth again.

The bible says that God knew us before we were born, he conceived us into being, what we do with it is up to us. When have you ever read me claim that those who don't know the bible story of Jesus must go to hell? I have never said that and nobody on this site will say I have and if they do, they better quote something I wrote. I will repeat things I have said, it is not about knowing how to pronounce Jesus in perfect Hebrew or even spelling it "properly". It is not about knowing the story. I know many christians think it is; but, they forget that even in the old testament it said that none could say they did not know because all can see his works and he is in all his works. It is about having the heart and mind of Jesus, he explained it. Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.

"Love GOD with all your heart" Christians forget that Jesus taught about his father. Christianity teaches that one must believe in Jesus. That means believing that he died for your sin and rose from the dead. They teach that if one rejects that "fact" they are doomed. Do you agree?

What about the saints and apostles that were promised eternal life through physical resurrection? Do you believe that they are asleep in the grave, waiting for the second coming of Jesus to awaken them, so that they can begin their eternal life, like other Christians have told me. Or, do you think that they are sitting in paradise drinking heavenly pina coladas? When Jesus said that the "born again" soul is free as wind, does that mean the born again can reincarnate, in order to continue the "Great Work" that Jesus charged the apostles with?

Why if you believe in reincarnation do you need Christians to believe in it? The apostles did not expect to be resurrected as you imply. We are told that we will not need these bodies once we die and will be given new ones and that doesn't mean physical in the sense that we think of it.

I don't need Christians to believe in reincarnation. This thread is in the "Conspiracies in Religion" forum, because there was a civil war within the early Christian church and the concept of reincarnation was ripped away from Christian doctrine in the middle of the 5th century. Anyone who didn't conform with the "new" ban on reincarnation was killed.

Christianity is incomplete without the concept of reincarnation. Jesus taught of eternal life. He said that a born again soul is as free as the wind. But Christians say that eternal life is to had in another world. But Jesus said "On earth as it is in Heaven" "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." and "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Our work is not done just because our body fades. The Great Work will continue until "Heaven and earth pass away."

Without the concept of reincarnation Christianity lacks integrity. Without the concept of reincarnation Christianity is dangerous. There is no commitment or responsibility to future generations. Christians only have to have their faith, and they're out of here. They don't acknowledge the fact that may be reborn into the mess that they left behind. But the sins of the father are passed down for generations. Christians think that doesn't apply to them.

There is a war in heaven, and once you're recruited, you may want to serve more than one tour of duty.

In my humble opinon

reply to post by AQuestion

See. I don't think that we disagree as much as you thought: "I completely disagree"

She regrets her choice because of how it effected her, not how it effected others. Same thing for anyone who is selfish. Reincarnation is about getting a second chance, not to have a better effect on others; but, to have a better outcome for oneself. Look at the OP, it is about them getting a second chance to be better so that they can advance. It is not about others.

What is a discussion of reincarnation without throwing in the almost obligatory corollary of karma?

There's a guy I know (to remain anonymous) who has seen the same phenomenon that you mention, so in his words:

Then one day, as I was fixing pancakes, seemingly out of the blue she said: "God is punishing me for the way I did you wrong."

Turning to her, I replied, "No. God would have consulted me first about that, and He hasn't, and I never asked for any such thing."

So I agree with you completely. In the case quoted above, the ex-wife was viewing her ordeals as in some way atoning for her past actions. In no way whatsoever was the pancake man benefited. One can assume that the "atoning" was selfishly motivated.

Edit to add:
Plus there is the possibility that the word "God" used in the conversation had different meanings for the two people.

reply to post by Seede

[The Pharisees] believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them [and that the virtuous] shall have power to revive and live again: on account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people. Antiquity of the Jews, Book i8, Chap. 1, No.3

[From an address of Josephus to some Jewish soldiers who desired to kill themselves rather than be captured by the Romans:]

The bodies of all men are, indeed mortal, and are created out of corruptible matter; but the soul is ever immortal, and is a portion of the divinity that inhabits our bodies. . . . Do ye not remember that all pure Spirits when they depart out of this life obtain a most holy place in heaven, from whence, in the revolutions of ages, they are again sent into pure bodies; while the souls of those who have committed self-destruction are doomed to a region in the darkness of Hades? Jewish War, Book 3, Chap. 8, No. 5

Philo Judeas
The air is full of souls; those who are nearest to earth descending to be tied to mortal bodies return to other bodies, desiring to live in them. De Somniis The company of disembodied souls is distributed in various orders. The law of some of them is to enter mortal bodies and after certain prescribed periods be again set free. But those possessed of a diviner structure are absolved from all local bonds of earth. Some of these souls choose confinement in mortal bodies because they are earthly and corporeally inclined...

Both Philo and Josephus wrote of and believed in reincarnation. There is no doubt about it.

Originally posted by Akragon

And it is by no means a goal... though perhaps a little better then a lake of fire...

At least its logical... while the idea of hell has no basis in logic

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

This is why I cannot blindly believe in hell fire as punishment for our sins and mistakes. What in the whacking of moles world could that possibly teach us and how could we possibly learn anything to improve our being if all we did is burn in hell fire for eternity? Yeah...

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

We don't HAVE souls, we ARE souls. This means that when we die, there is absolutely nothing left of us...

The undertakers would be unemployed in that case.

I tried to find the scene from [The Dark Crystal] where Jen's Master dies as a better example, but couldn't find a youtube for that.

the soul has died....it is not immortal......it will not reincarnate. It will only be resurrected and given a new perfect body...(if applicable)(and which also implies that souls cannot exist without a habitable body, therefore throwing pre-existence out the window)

So in the resurrection, will there be Neanderthals? Wouldn't they feel a little out of place?

The body decays, the atoms go into the mix and are reintegrated in other forms. Could "souls" do this together with the body? And if yes, doesn't that allow for evolution?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

That would be a mercy to us all, but he doesn't work that way. If you really were a christian you'd know not to tempt the Lord your God. That verbal diarhea you suffer from keeps exposing you for what you are.

^^^^^^^^ All that quoted above is a perfect example of what so-called "christianity" has become for the most part in the west. Me vs. you, I'm right & your wrong, don't ask questions, your all liars, etc.

I'll give mr. ghnadi a quote to the respnse above:
Gandh: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You know Lonewolf, I have sometimes followed your posting history to "quote mine" your posts for the funniest and most unchristian things that proclaimed Christians say. I have a collection. I'm gonna make a book, and you're going to make me rich!

edit on 28-6-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Amen brother ......tell a tree by it's fruit....

Text So, if reincarnation was a widely held belief, and Jesus never dismissed the concept, and in fact taught about it, and early church fathers wrote concerning the idea of reincarnation, why do the Christian churches so adamently reject it's possible reality?

reply to post by windword


Jesus' doctrine is that a man shall die only once.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The judgment is considered to be towards the spirit as the spirit is the only force left in death. The soul (body) is only the house or containment of the spirit. This also shows that the flesh (brain) of the soul does not control the spirit but is only the means of distribution of the spirit. The spirit contains the memory bank of the soul and is judged as the responsible agent of that entity.

If one reincarnates then that spirit would face repetitive judgments even though it would lose several or more souls. Being that the spirit can not die till the white throne judgment and does retain memory then if it reincarnates into another soul when is this memory lost and if the memory is lost then what is the sense of a judgment? Or for that matter where would this lead to that spirit being cast into hell? In other words everyone is eventually a saved entity through reincarnation even though you will never remember it in the first place. It makes for a senseless belief.

reply to post by Seede

Jesus' doctrine is that a man shall die only once. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

No. That is the doctrine of Paul. Jesus promised his disciples that they would NEVER taste death, yet they died. How do you explain that?

reply to post by Seede

Jesus' doctrine is that a man shall die only once. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

You have little kids all around the world remembering previous lives. Remembering pre-existence. You have near death experiences that also discuss past lives. Other religions also discussing this. It's also discussed in various texts that have been in consideration to be part of the Biblical Cannon. ANd even the Bible itself has mention of what could be eluding to reincarnation like the John-being-Elijah controversy in Matthew 11:13-14 along with various other scriptures.

If one reincarnates then that spirit would face repetitive judgments even though it would lose several or more souls. Being that the spirit can not die till the white throne judgment and does retain memory then if it reincarnates into another soul when is this memory lost and if the memory is lost then what is the sense of a judgment?

IF you read NDE's from every culture, time, and religion from around the world, you'll see that after every life lived here, there seems to be some sort of Judgment/Counsel on how you did with your life here. Almost like a refresher course, and we ourselves are the worst judges of ourselves. I know I've always personally judged myself the worst in the past about certain things that others blow off as no big deal.

Or for that matter where would this lead to that spirit being cast into hell?

Hypothetical: If you were God and knew that if you created this reality, that you would lose the majority of souls to permanent hell because they would be programmed and tricked by the world to not choose Jesus, would you still create all this?

If you knew that one of your children, because of free will, has a good chance of mucking up this life here and ending up in eternal hell, would you still choose to have children?

In other words everyone is eventually a saved entity through reincarnation even though you will never remember it in the first place. It makes for a senseless belief.

You keep coming here til you graduate by excepting Christ, detaching from the world and all it's programming, all forms of clinging, and putting God first.

Do you have to repeat 8th grade if you fail it? Yes

Almost all other religions say that in order to break the cycle of birth/death, you have to attain Nirvana, Enlightenment, Ego Death, Complete detachment, etc.

When Jesus said that if you want to enter HEaven, you must be Born of Water and of Spirit, very many Denominations, including Eastern Orthodoxy, reference this as Ego Death by the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which seals your entrance into Heaven........which can that also mean that you are no longer bound to any incarnations here.

It's really all interchangeable

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Seede

 

Jesus' doctrine is that a man shall die only once. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

No. That is the doctrine of Paul. Jesus promised his disciples that they would NEVER taste death, yet they died. How do you explain that?

Paul was an initiate of the mysteries.

Do you think it is possible he perceived other aspects of Jesus' teachings which the other disciples did not?