Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword

 

Is a shiny, brand new, innocent soul created every time a woman's egg is fertilized? If so, doesn't that make the soul a biological manifestation? How then can one justify the belief that the soul doesn't die, but the body does?

Well, from the Christian context, since that is the direction you chose for the thread, how can you reconcile your above statement with the Biblical narrative that humanity began with Adam and Eve?

How are there 7 billion people on the planet today if it all started with two people and souls are not created by God with every birth?

And for your question I can reconcile that with physics. The spirit/soul of a person is energy. Which according to the laws of thermodynamics cannot be destroyed. And according to quantum physics is eternal. Since the spirit/soul has no mass it cannot be affected by time

It's true that in Genesis, God Blew into Adam and he became a living soul, but it's not written that he blew into Eve. Did her creation fracture the soul of Adam? Are we all fragments of the "original: soul"?

On the other hand, in your line of thinking, that every body is endowed with a brand new soul, in that case, do you think that the human soul in encoded into our DNA? If so, by that logic of the law of energy, all life should have a soul that persists after the death of the body, right?

Being the curious student that I am, and I'm sure that you are also, I like to look further. The creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis, in my opinion in is the shortened, Reader's Digest" version of the story. If you look at the Book of Jubilees, which was excluded from the main version of the bible that we have today, along with the Book of Enoch too, btw, but a copies of which were both found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, so we know that they were books that were of value, at least to early Hebrews. Jubilees goes into far more detail into the history and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the ordeal with Abraham, Isaac and the death of Sarah, and the creation story.

And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works. For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer

and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide , and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

www.pseudepigrapha.com...

So in the book of Jubilees, it is written that the spirits of all thing were created before their physical essence. Pre-existence!

Food for thought!

Text Paul was an initiate of the mysteries. Do you think it is possible he perceived other aspects of Jesus' teachings which the other disciples did not?

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


My opinion? Yes I do think that Paul had special consideration and revelations from Jesus than did others. I also believe that John had special considerations and revelations from Jesus than did others. In fact others such as Peter also had different measures of faith and purpose from Jesus. All people who believe in Jesus as the only begotten Son of God have special qualities and measures of faith. Some seem less than others but we do not understand the entire picture of the Holy Spirit. God has a purpose for each creature that He creates and we do not understand the complexity nor magnitude of His creation.

The thing that bothers me in Christianity today is that we try to rationalize God and this is impossible. It even leads to hostility towards some such as Paul the Apostle of the Lord. Paul was a scoundrel while known as Saul but his love for his understanding God was genuine and fervent. That is the quality that God loves. Just as King David had the same problem, God so loved him because his heart was in God. As David was weak in flesh so was Paul weak in flesh but Paul's heart was always with the way he understood God. His problem was that he did not really understand God but was taught what he understood and that teaching was wrong.

While the others were building the church in Jerusalem Paul spent three years in Arabia as Jesus taught him that which was needed for Paul to preach. Paul did not have the privilege of living and listening to Jesus' teachings as did the others. He was busy with the Sanhedrin's folly and hate filled his heart as he believed their constant harshness of law. You know the rest.

I am troubled by those Christians who dislike Paul and try to destroy his Apostleship. Are they not as Saul was before he became a converted Paul. I doubt that there are many who would give their life such as Paul has done and yet condemn their very own brother in Christ. I am very troubled with this judgmental attitude of Christianity.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by windword

 

Did you notice that in 2nd Kings 3 that Elijah is not mentioned only Elisha . Elijah was a very big figure and when people saw an godly authoritive man they often referred to them as Elijah or Moses even though there was no way they knew what they looked like . The chronology that has been attributed to the Bible some 2800 years ago by scholars of the last few hundred years could be in error by a few years . And the similarities in the names could have caused a problem .

I did notice that. You and Agree2Disagree both have valid points. I would guess that if was a widely known story, the whirlwind that took Elijah, I would imagine that if the letter arrived after the fact, Jehoram would have shaat a brick! It would be like receiving a phone call from you dead grandfather, telling you to "Shape and fly right!"

So, for argument's sake, lets go with the assumption that Elijah was taken after the letter, and never came back. Jesus said that "No man has ascended to Heaven" and that the flesh can't enter. The human body isn't designed to withstand endless periods of time and the fire of the "chariot of fire" should have consumed the vulgar earthly flesh of Elijah. He, his soul, in my opinion, would have been given a new "resurrected" body for his "heavenly" existence. Do you agree?

Text If you knew that one of your children, because of free will, has a good chance of mucking up this life here and ending up in eternal hell, would you still choose to have children?

reply to post by dominicus


This question is a good one and not really easy to answer. In the first place it would be impossible to know if a child is going to muck up his life before he mucks it up but if I thought the odds were that he would screw it up and go to hell then the answer would be no. I sure would not want anyone to ever go to hell. That is if hell does exist.

But in all honesty I don't think it is a fair question either. If I thought that I could have a child and that child could enjoy everlasting life then the answer would be yes. I would really be proud and overjoyed to think that my boy would live forever. There is a chance that any one who is ever born could screw up their life and wind up in hell. On the other hand if I thought that my child might screw up and on the way to hell then why not believe that the child can get straightened out and not wind up in hell? I guess it's something like a dog chasing its tail.

reply to post by windword

It's true that in Genesis, God Blew into Adam and he became a living soul, but it's not written that he blew into Eve. Did her creation fracture the soul of Adam?

Of course not! That would be like saying that the whole of the Divine Feminine in all of it's creative aspects is a fracturing of the Alpha spirit. Instead it is the mystery of creation in the material world. The Divine Feminine should be revered as it has been in India for millennia.
I think the whole creating Eve from the rib of Adam was a metaphor and not to be taken literally. After all, Genesis says that male and female created He them, and all our spirit sparks were first created as an androgynous form which split then into male and female. One could call it a fracturing, but do not think of it in such a negative form.

Pay no attention to the gullible man, he is as far from accurate as anyone could possibly be.

Christianity repels most things like oil to water because love and truth is like oil, which will not sit with lies and will always float to the top.

He is one of those people who thinks just cause he puts his hand up and say 'I believe' that he's got an automatic ticket into the next world.

Nothing in this lifetime or the next works like that.

YOU MUST EARN YOUR AFTERLIFE IN LIGHT! There is no if, buts or maybe's about this. I have seen it.

And yes you reincarnate, this is the cycle you repeat until you get things right, you may sit in limbo of darkness as a servant of the light for thousands of years until you get another chance. Not a place anyone would want to be.

This is where the concept of hell comes from. Although the only thing that 'burns' in hell is your own regret.

Christians have no real idea what happens in the afterlife. This is why their 'second-coming' is here to put the hard truths on them about the lies of greed their church was started on.

All the churches are about to fall.

Yes there is reincarnation, new souls are 'added' to the cycle as they elevate through life ranks from other forms of life.

This guy on the other hand, is most likely to spend his next incarnation as a dog, to serve as a lesson for his like at barking at others and parading around with his hackles up.

For those who like acting like dogs, God is happy to accommodate. My only regret is that in such life he wont be able to remember my words now telling him so.

Originally posted by Murgatroid
Christianity and reincarnation repel each other like oil and water.

We can not EARN heaven – not in one lifetime or a million.

That’s why we needed Jesus to be our savior.

reply to post by BornOfSin


I think im starting to like you...

Not so sure about the dogs quote though... but its possible I suppose...

One would hope that such a downgrade will not happen... but im sure I know people who deserve to be things far worse then a simple dog.

Whether like a vine or a fungus .. I'll grow on everyone eventually.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by BornOfSin

 

I think im starting to like you...

Not so sure about the dogs quote though... but its possible I suppose...

One would hope that such a downgrade will not happen... but im sure I know people who deserve to be things far worse then a simple dog.

Originally posted by BornOfSin
Whether like a vine or a fungus .. I'll grow on everyone eventually.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by BornOfSin

 

I think im starting to like you...

Not so sure about the dogs quote though... but its possible I suppose...

One would hope that such a downgrade will not happen... but im sure I know people who deserve to be things far worse then a simple dog.

Heh....

So we have something in common

Originally posted by BornOfSin
Pay no attention to the gullible man, he is as far from accurate as anyone could possibly be.

. . .

YOU MUST EARN YOUR AFTERLIFE IN LIGHT! There is no if, buts or maybe's about this. I have seen it.

And yes you reincarnate, this is the cycle you repeat until you get things right, you may sit in limbo of darkness as a servant of the light for thousands of years until you get another chance. Not a place anyone would want to be.

What were you doing to have 'seen' reincarnation?

Also as to the Christian church, are you talking about the Roman Catholic or the original church that was spreading before Constantine consolidated the various movements?

Also were drinking before you made this post, it seems belligerent and offensive to be calling others dogs?

Text So, for argument's sake, lets go with the assumption that Elijah was taken after the letter, and never came back. Jesus said that "No man has ascended to Heaven" and that the flesh can't enter. The human body isn't designed to withstand endless periods of time and the fire of the "chariot of fire" should have consumed the vulgar earthly flesh of Elijah. He, his soul, in my opinion, would have been given a new "resurrected" body for his "heavenly" existence. Do you agree?

reply to post by windword


Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire or so it is taught, This was many years before the Kingdom of Heaven was established by Jesus. This kingdom of heaven is said to be in the third heaven and is said to be the New Jerusalem. When John related that Jesus said that no one has ascended into heaven it is taught (by some) that this was referenced to the New Jerusalem or third heaven otherwise known as the kingdom of God.

As Elijah was taken into heaven it is believed by some that he was taken up into this terrestrial heaven by a tornado or whirlwind or tempest. Second Kings does not say that he entered a vehicle of any sort and entered the abode of God.

2Ki 2:1 And it happened when Jehovah was to take Elijah up into Heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2Ki 2:11 And it happened as they went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire came, and they separated between them both. And Elijah went up in a tempest into Heaven.

It is taught (by some) that Elijah died a mortal death and entered the abode of Sheol which was Abraham's Bosom or paradise. The reason it is believed to be so is the fact that Elijah and Moses both appeared before Jesus on His transfiguration some years later.

Mat 17:2 And He was transfigured before them. And His face shone as the sun, and His clothing was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.

It is taught that Elijah represented the prophets and Moses represented the law. Both Elijah and Moses gave their authority to Jesus and this is when Jesus became the High Priest of the Judaic structure. Mind you that this is entirely teachings of certain Jews and there is no clear chapter and verse to verify any of this theology.

I realize that most Christians teach that Elijah did not die a mortal death but this teaching has a lot of misunderstanding and supposition involved according to some scholars.

reply to post by windword


I do not know what the two witnesses have been doing all these years but God can do what ever he wants . The flesh undergoes the ravages of time under the sun . Did you notice that before the flood there was all that radiation shielding called clouds above the earth and the life span was 969 years at the extreme .Then after the flood we had a more normal rain cycle and life span was reduced greatly , and now with our rain cycle and more sun light we have 70 years plus or minus . If the solar radiation ages our bodies one would wonder how to prevent that from happening . I am sure God can keep them living until their time comes .

reply to post by Seede


Moses and Elijah ? Has there ever been a portrait of either ? How could any one have identified Moses or Elijah except for the esteem of appearing with Jesus ?The scripture did not place a name on the two who appeared with Jesus at his transfiguration . That was assumed ! As was Babylon to John the Devine ! Could the two have been Enoch and Elijah whom God took from the earth only to die in the streets of Jerusalem ?
Elijah is literally named to come as one of the witnesses and was taken alive as was Enoch .

Text And yes you reincarnate, this is the cycle you repeat until you get things right, you may sit in limbo of darkness as a servant of the light for thousands of years until you get another chance. Not a place anyone would want to be. This is where the concept of hell comes from. Although the only thing that 'burns' in hell is your own regret.

reply to post by BornOfSin


Could I ask you 'BornOfSin" exactly where you got this philosophy? The way you have presented this leads me to understand that you believe in a purgatory of sort. Is that Correct or am I assuming the wrong things here?

The concept of hell (Greek) comes from the Jews who preached Abraham's Bosom as being the abode of all spirits of dead souls. The very first concept of Gehenna (Hebrew) or Hell (Greek) was that of the tribal Hebrews who taught that a collective peoples entered this abode which was located in Sheol. This abode was taught also by the doctrine of Jesus who referenced it quite often.(Luke)

It is true that reincarnation was and is taught by quite a few people but I have yet not read the evidence for this theology. There are some stories that lead people to believe reincarnation but then again it should be examined carefully before any gun is jumped.

I have heard it said, by some, that Satan can instill this into the minds of certain people to destroy the doctrine of Jesus the Christ. By instilling this in a influential mind would contradict the teachings of Jesus that teaches us the soul is to die only once and then the judgment of that soul's spirit. The judged spirit is then either imprisoned in hell or becomes a citizen of the kingdom of God. There are many other counterfeit things that Satan does to destroy the gospel of Christ Jesus. Of course all of this is my own philosophy and probably no more believable than yours.

Text Moses and Elijah ? Has there ever been a portrait of either ? How could any one have identified Moses or Elijah except for the esteem of appearing with Jesus ?The scripture did not place a name on the two who appeared with Jesus at his transfiguration . That was assumed ! As was Babylon to John the Devine ! Could the two have been Enoch and Elijah whom God took from the earth only to die in the streets of Jerusalem ? Elijah is literally named to come as one of the witnesses and was taken alive as was Enoch .

reply to post by SimonPeter


@ SimonPeter

I don't know who witnessed this event but the 1611 KJV bible is the source that I read. Matthew 17: 2,3 names both Moses and Elijah as being the two who appeared to Jesus on the Mt. of transfiguration.

Reading from the same 1611 KJV bible, Revelations 11:3-12 does not name the two witnesses who appear in the end time and my search shows no mention of the names of the two witnesses.

Can you show me the source of the two witnesses being Elijah and Enoch? I invite all of the people out there to read their bibles and tell me where to find the information that Elijah and Enoch are the two witnesses that John describes in Revelations 11: 3-12 --

While you are looking that up, also look up where i can find that Elijah was taken to the heavenly abode of God in any sort of vehicle or horse. Much of what Christians are taught is just not there. I believe Elijah was killed by a tornado in this first heaven. The heaven I refer to is this one that the birds and clouds are located. In other words Elijah was killed by a whirlwind.

reply to post by Seede


You are right that Moses was named as was Elijah , my mistake .
Elijah was taken in 2nd Kings chapter 2 verse 11 .

reply to post by Seede


Elijah is named in Malachi chapter 4 verse 5 .

I speak to you as one who has seen Heaven and 'Hell'. It's not a philosophy, its experience.

Though I do not discount that everyone may have a different 'experience' as is the nature of existence.

God showed them to me. Let's just put it that way. For its hard for someone to speak of Heaven and Hell, they have never experienced them.

Originally posted by Seede

Text And yes you reincarnate, this is the cycle you repeat until you get things right, you may sit in limbo of darkness as a servant of the light for thousands of years until you get another chance. Not a place anyone would want to be. This is where the concept of hell comes from. Although the only thing that 'burns' in hell is your own regret.

reply to post by BornOfSin

 

Could I ask you 'BornOfSin" exactly where you got this philosophy? The way you have presented this leads me to understand that you believe in a purgatory of sort. Is that Correct or am I assuming the wrong things here?

The concept of hell (Greek) comes from the Jews who preached Abraham's Bosom as being the abode of all spirits of dead souls. The very first concept of Gehenna (Hebrew) or Hell (Greek) was that of the tribal Hebrews who taught that a collective peoples entered this abode which was located in Sheol. This abode was taught also by the doctrine of Jesus who referenced it quite often.(Luke)

It is true that reincarnation was and is taught by quite a few people but I have yet not read the evidence for this theology. There are some stories that lead people to believe reincarnation but then again it should be examined carefully before any gun is jumped.

I have heard it said, by some, that Satan can instill this into the minds of certain people to destroy the doctrine of Jesus the Christ. By instilling this in a influential mind would contradict the teachings of Jesus that teaches us the soul is to die only once and then the judgment of that soul's spirit. The judged spirit is then either imprisoned in hell or becomes a citizen of the kingdom of God. There are many other counterfeit things that Satan does to destroy the gospel of Christ Jesus. Of course all of this is my own philosophy and probably no more believable than yours.

Also the names 'Moses' and 'Elijah' are used to describe the person that God is appearing to. Not the name of the person themselves. This is a common mistake with those reading the Bible.

He is describing God appearing to 'A believer' and 'A saviour'. Which were more than likely the same person.

Originally posted by Seede

Text Moses and Elijah ? Has there ever been a portrait of either ? How could any one have identified Moses or Elijah except for the esteem of appearing with Jesus ?The scripture did not place a name on the two who appeared with Jesus at his transfiguration . That was assumed ! As was Babylon to John the Devine ! Could the two have been Enoch and Elijah whom God took from the earth only to die in the streets of Jerusalem ? Elijah is literally named to come as one of the witnesses and was taken alive as was Enoch .

reply to post by SimonPeter

 

@ SimonPeter

I don't know who witnessed this event but the 1611 KJV bible is the source that I read. Matthew 17: 2,3 names both Moses and Elijah as being the two who appeared to Jesus on the Mt. of transfiguration.

Reading from the same 1611 KJV bible, Revelations 11:3-12 does not name the two witnesses who appear in the end time and my search shows no mention of the names of the two witnesses.

Can you show me the source of the two witnesses being Elijah and Enoch? I invite all of the people out there to read their bibles and tell me where to find the information that Elijah and Enoch are the two witnesses that John describes in Revelations 11: 3-12 --

While you are looking that up, also look up where i can find that Elijah was taken to the heavenly abode of God in any sort of vehicle or horse. Much of what Christians are taught is just not there. I believe Elijah was killed by a tornado in this first heaven. The heaven I refer to is this one that the birds and clouds are located. In other words Elijah was killed by a whirlwind.

reply to post by BornOfSin


How did you come to this experience?

I am not unfamiliar with these sort of experiences, so please do tell.