Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by windword


I don't believe in any of it but if there was such a thing as a sole, originally they must have all been the same ie blank, existing on a plane out side space and time, ie the same thing- not separate or individual. I suppose you can call this "the source" consciousness, which I agree would survive death (ie neither created nor destroyed) but I don't see how conscious thought or individuality would.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


It is appointed to every man to die the first death . The 1st death is the death of the Flesh. Lazarus was dead and was raise again to life . Lazarus died the 1st death twice literally . He was raised to flesh the first time and to the spirit the second time . Jesus brought back from the dead also ; the widows son (Luke 7:11-17 ) and Jairus daughter ( Matt.9:18-26 ) . Then when Jesus was raised many graves were opened up and the once dead walked about for about 2 weeks . Sorry if that does not meet with your approval .

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


I agree that a lot of the bible's content comes from mystery schools. where we part ways is in the interpretation. and as this thread clearly indicates, this has been going on for a long time.

to elaborate on a previous post, I think the editors of the bible took bits and pieces from the pop religions of it's day (mystery schools) and re-mixed them in order to manipulate and control the masses. there is wisdom to be gleaned from the bible as it is, but you need a mighty fine toothed comb and a library of occult books to get the most out of it.

also, revelations seems to me to be about individual enlightenment via the activation of seven chakras. when this happens, the hidden world of spirits will be revealed. it has little to nothing to do with a literal end of the world.

I think it's awfully dismissive to state that a belief in reincarnation "is merely a reflection of the personal desires, hopes, and wishes of the individual making the statement". what about the personal experiences? why did I have such an intense interest in drawing/painting and martial arts at age two instead of say soccer and cars and trucks? at the moment, I think i'd rather not be reincarnated, yet I still think reincarnation is real.

reply to post by ultimafule


I never said belief in reincarnation was merely a reflection of personal desires, I said that as a concept it is only a rebirth into the flesh. All those meaning attached to the concept are reflections of personal desire.

As for the chakras activating would you be referring to the city on seven hills or the seven headed beast whom has a head that was reborn and is ridden by the whore of Babylon?

reply to post by SimonPeter


That's not what the verse says though. You're creating your own context to fit your beliefs. The verse says that man is appointed to die "once", not "the first death".

true, you never said explicitly belief, but it's seems like a logical extrapolation. anyways...

as I understand it the seven heads and the seven mountains are the same thing. to answer your question, yes. also the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven vials... plus the seven days of the week and the seven planets of the ancients.

the wounded and resurrected head represents spiritual rebirth once all seven chakras are activated. the whore of Babylon is the feminine creative principle, nut or nuit, the Egyptian goddess of the night sky. the mounting of the beast or 'enlightened' individual represents the perfect union of heaven and earth. as above, so below. yin and yang.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

I didn't mean NOTHING, obviously the vessel or body still remains.....I always forget that ATS members tend to take things very literally...

I broke your comment mid-sentence to pull off my little stunt I really wish I could have found a good clip from The Dark Crystal though.

This is all my opinion of course, but souls are not anything tangible....The soul is the spirit + body....Once we die the spirit goes back to God from which it came, meaning that there is only body left....If I take 1 + 2 = 3, but then take "1" out of the equation, the product, or "3" also has to be taken away.....

Right, this would be a good starting point upon which to agree. The spirit(breath) is not the person(soul). The spirit does not belong to the person, but is borrowed during life.

The Self, a distinct identifiable entity, identifiable to self and others, is a complex of memory(continuity through time), emotion, sensuality(sensory input and the mental organizing thereof), etc. (because I don't think I could catalog all of it). All of this self is very much tied to the physical body and the chemical and electrical processes which occur within the body.

Without the body, the framework of definition, this complex self collapses. In resurrection teaching "God" remembers all that is necessary to remember about that self in order to reassemble it. There is no chance for spiritual evolution.

In an atomic self teaching (I haven't coined a name for it yet. I want to avoid "reincarnation" since that seems to be already taken by a teaching contradictory to my own) that complex self after collapsing disperses into the surroundings and is eventually reintegrated (whatever is reintegrative) as the stuff (ethereal matter) of which souls grow from (like eating and digesting food) through breathing in and living within. Hence, spiritual evolution becomes possible from generation to generation, with nothing really lost in the process.

I can see that vocabulary was not developed with this teaching in mind.

Physical and spiritual evolution occur simultaneously, or rather they should.

Originally posted by ultimafule
true, you never said explicitly belief, but it's seems like a logical extrapolation. anyways...

as I understand it the seven heads and the seven mountains are the same thing. to answer your question, yes. also the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven vials... plus the seven days of the week and the seven planets of the ancients.

the wounded and resurrected head represents spiritual rebirth once all seven chakras are activated. the whore of Babylon is the feminine creative principle, nut or nuit, the Egyptian goddess of the night sky. the mounting of the beast or 'enlightened' individual represents the perfect union of heaven and earth. as above, so below. yin and yang.

So then the beast of the Earth would be Geb by your reasoning. The unification leading to the establishment of a one world system which is lead by an 'enlightened' man (Horus) and goes to war with God who is likely Set or Typhon. Geb would make sense as he is the father of serpents and often depicted with a serpents head so the beast of the Earth being empowered by the dragon (serpent or Kundalini).

Interesting.

Lets agree to disagree on this one.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Dear ThirdEyeofHorus,

I believe in grace. The price tag is forgiving others.

Originally posted by pthena

I broke your comment mid-sentence to pull off my little stunt

I really wish I could have found a good clip from The Dark Crystal though.

Right, this would be a good starting point upon which to agree. The spirit(breath) is not the person(soul). The spirit does not belong to the person, but is borrowed during life.

The Self, a distinct identifiable entity, identifiable to self and others, is a complex of memory(continuity through time), emotion, sensuality(sensory input and the mental organizing thereof), etc. (because I don't think I could catalog all of it). All of this self is very much tied to the physical body and the chemical and electrical processes which occur within the body.

Without the body, the framework of definition, this complex self collapses. In resurrection teaching "God" remembers all that is necessary to remember about that self in order to reassemble it. There is no chance for spiritual evolution.

In an atomic self teaching (I haven't coined a name for it yet. I want to avoid "reincarnation" since that seems to be already taken by a teaching contradictory to my own) that complex self after collapsing disperses into the surroundings and is eventually reintegrated (whatever is reintegrative) as the stuff (ethereal matter) of which souls grow from (like eating and digesting food) through breathing in and living within. Hence, spiritual evolution becomes possible from generation to generation, with nothing really lost in the process.

I can see that vocabulary was not developed with this teaching in mind.

Physical and spiritual evolution occur simultaneously, or rather they should.

Not bad stuff to be honest. I like this take on things...

However, with that being said I personally would not say "spiritual evolution". I think it's more likely spiritual maturity. As far as I can tell, spiritual maturity and physical evolution occur simultaneously in that spiritual maturity takes(again, all my perspective on things and simply an opinion, I can't reiterate that point enough on ATS) significantly more time to reach than the physical body can offer.....

With that in mind, I believe our spirits are tutored to a degree before they are put inside the vessel of body to form the soul....Then both spirit and body work together(Although Paul would have us believe otherwise, see Gal5:17) to create unity and reach full maturity...as full maturity cannot exist without the unity of all three....spirit(breath of life), mind(soul) and body(flesh vessel)

An interesting biblical passage is Luke 10:27

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Heart, soul, strength, mind....Interesting that these are mentioned seemingly "separate" as if to point out that they are independent of each other...yet we know that they are, to a degree, dependent upon each other...

A2D

And also, I'd like to point out that our sense of self may very well come from the spirit lent to us..and thus would illustrate why there are biblical passages such as Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Which lends credence to the always present Christian meme of "spirit beings in a fleshly body"

reply to post by pthena


Dear pthena,

So I agree with you completely. In the case quoted above, the ex-wife was viewing her ordeals as in some way atoning for her past actions. In no way whatsoever was the pancake man benefited. One can assume that the "atoning" was selfishly motivated.

I like the pancake story. I have no wish for my ex to suffer for her mistakes. I would prefer her to learn from them. I don't believe in atonement, I believe in advancement and forgiveness. It seems to me that "karma" and reincarnation seek to make everyone be punished for mistakes. Karma is about being "right", forgiveness is about making things better. And, I apologize for taking so long to get back to you, stayed up very late and slept very late. It is my one day off this week.

I enjoy the post. And the questions it asks. As a Catholic, i still wonder about what happens after we leave this life behind. Reincarnation has always made me wonder..... Thanks for a nice read.

But with regards to a soul being created after an egg is fertilized.. so therefore the soul is created by us..? Is that what you mean? I don't know.. but if you take the belief of the soul, i think it's less about what our soul is upon being created rather than what our soul grows in to perhaps.

I don't know if we humans produce our souls... but if we did, that's a hefty responsibility!

reply to post by MrConspiracy

But with regards to a soul being created after an egg is fertilized.. so therefore the soul is created by us..? Is that what you mean? I don't know.. but if you take the belief of the soul, i think it's less about what our soul is upon being created rather than what our soul grows in to perhaps.

Am I asking is the soul created by us? Not really. More to the question of: "If you believe that every new person has a new, innocent and inexperienced soul, does the soul arise as a result of biology? Is the soul coded into our DNA. If so, then why the belief in eternal life of the soul?"

Glad you're enjoying the read!

Text No. That is the doctrine of Paul. Jesus promised his disciples that they would NEVER taste death, yet they died. How do you explain that?

reply to post by windword


@ windword

You could be very well right in crediting Paul with the letter to the Hebrews but in all reality the verdict is not in yet. The letter of Hebrews is highly controversial by most scholars as to the author. But then again what difference does it really make? Are not the Apostles the representatives of the church of Christ. Peter also made some very serious errors and Paul was quick to correct him. Does that make Peter a liar or of no account in the doctrine of Jesus?

As far as tasting death, It is meant that if you are of Christ you pass from this life directly and instantly into the celestial life of the kingdom of heaven and that once you have become a citizen of the kingdom of God the second death, which is the death of the spirit, has no power over you. The final judgment, which is the white throne judgment, is the judgment in which the spirits of hell and those not found in the book of life will suffer the second death.

It is believed by some that the second death is that in which the unsaved spirits will lose their consciousness and become lifeless. While this is not shown by scripture in a forthright chapter and verse, it is assumed by understanding the Revelations of Jesus to John. Isaiah also speaks of those who are in the lake of fire and refers to their existence as worms or "their worm never dies".

I would not argue Christianity simply because Christians have their many bibles which do not all agree as well as outside literature that can be used. There is also a movement in the Christian world towards denigrating Paul as a scoundrel and regarding him as a false apostle. In that light it always leads into a argument that cannot be resolved with the love of Christ being the judge of the matter.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Actually , the bible says there are two deaths . The first death is the death of your earthly flesh . The second death is the death of the soul . Trying to pick apart a single verse is pointless .

I was planning to spin out a new myth to encapsulate my beliefs
but then I realized how very hot and sweaty I was.
I find it difficult to concentrate under those conditions.

Here are two of my favorite Summer songs:


My favorite line while sweating is:

Room gets suddenly still
And when you'd almost bet
You could hear yourself sweat, he walks in

But then I like to juxtapose a line from Brother Love:
"Walk with me this day
In my heart I know, I will never stray"

With Sting:
"I never made promises lightly
And there have been some that I've broken
But I swear in the days still left
We'll walk in the fields of gold"


But where is the future after many years have passed?
"See the children run as the sun goes down
Among the fields of gold"

Fields of Gold

You'll remember me when the west wind moves
Upon the fields of barley
You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky
As we walk in the fields of gold

So she took her love
For to gaze awhile
Upon the fields of barley
In his arms she fell as her hair came down
Among the fields of gold

Will you stay with me, will you be my love
Among the fields of barley
We'll forget the sun in his jealous sky
As we lie in the fields of gold

See the west wind move like a lover so
Upon the fields of barley
Feel her body rise when you kiss her mouth
Among the fields of gold
I never made promises lightly
And there have been some that I've broken
But I swear in the days still left
We'll walk in the fields of gold
We'll walk in the fields of gold

Many years have passed since those summer days
Among the fields of barley
See the children run as the sun goes down
Among the fields of gold
You'll remember me when the west wind moves
Upon the fields of barley
You can tell the sun in his jealous sky
When we walked in the fields of gold
When we walked in the fields of gold
When we walked in the fields of gold

reply to post by SimonPeter


Conveniently, the "second death" comes at the end of the world, according to the vision of John of Patmos in the Revelation, a book that almost didn't make it into the Bible. Other than John's futuristic vision, there is no doctrine of a second death in the Bible, that I am aware of. Jesus didn't teach it, that's for sure.

reply to post by windword


TWO have not died the first death that lived before Jesus . Do you know who they are ? And when they will die ?

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by windword

 

TWO have not died the first death that lived before Jesus . Do you know who they are ? And when they will die ?

Is one Elijah?!

ZOMG!

reply to post by SimonPeter


Enoch was said to have been taken up in a space ship. And, Elijah also got abducted by a spaceship, but in Elijah's case, years after his so called abduction, he sent a letter to King Jehoram, criticising him for his actions as king (2 Chron 21). So, I guess they dropped him off back home!