Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by windword


Dear windword,

So, if reincarnation was a widely held belief, and Jesus never dismissed the concept, and in fact taught about it, and early church fathers wrote concerning the idea of reincarnation, why do the Christian churches so adamently reject it's possible reality? Is it because reincarnation gives a person more than one chance, removing the tactic of desperation? Is it because it would make Jesus' supposed resurrection allegorical and not such a big deal, as we all die and are reborn? What would happen if Christians began to openly accept the concept of reincarnation? Would the world stop spinning?

Because it is not what the bible teaches. That could be the reason too. Because we believe and Jesus taught that when we die we can spend eternity in heaven with God. Lets turn the question around. Why is it that Hindu's don't accept the idea of eternal life with God the father. Would the world stop turning?

The concept behind reincarnation is that you keep living new lives until you become perfect on your own. Christianity teaches that there is none good but God and that we can be accepted even if we are not perfect. That is a very big difference. Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself is, according to Jesus, the most important thing. You don't really need more than one "chance" to do that. Reincarnation is sort of an excuse for not taking responsibility for what you do to others and is therefore counter to what Christians believe.

reply to post by AQuestion

Because it is not what the bible teaches. That could be the reason too. Because we believe and Jesus taught that when we die we can spend eternity in heaven with God. Lets turn the question around. Why is it that Hindu's don't accept the idea of eternal life with God the father. Would the world stop turning?

You got it. Jesus flipped the script and any who accept him will go with him. Those that die knowing and accepting his gift do not have to return. now we can see why we have so many false religions out there. They are more like traps now. There are many that are here that have already graduated that just came to help. Some just had to come back to live with their nose up in the air. Most are new here. Some come from other worlds. All are under GOD'S rule but some will not want to be here soon.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


In a practical sense, I can see your point about John the Baptist denying that he was Elijah to avoid being called a heretic and the persecution that was to follow. However, he talked pretty forceful about the religious and secular authorities of the day. If I recall, King Herod took him into custody and had him beheaded. So if he was indeed Elijah? He would have told them yes. They were out to get him either way.

I heard about that documentary, "The Lost Years of Jesus." I am going to have to find the time and give it a view. Jesus did not have to drop eastern teachings on the Jews, because all it took was his announcement of He being the Son of God and the Messiah. We know that from accounts in scripture, he did not meet the rubrics set forth by the religious authorities and their interpretation of the Torah, and it led to his crucifixion. As for the influence of the Essenes on Christ? From what I gather, there is no definitive evidence in either scripture or tradition that shows any connection between Christ and Essenes. That is just from what I have read about them.

As for discussing Marian apparitions. You can talk about it as much as you wish. With regard to offense to my sensibilities? My sensibilities are as sensible as they have ever been. I do not mind talking about it, but the topic is reincarnation. Therefore, with respect to the OP, I will not engage in it on this thread. Thanks for the reply!

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by windword

 

Dear windword,

So, if reincarnation was a widely held belief, and Jesus never dismissed the concept, and in fact taught about it, and early church fathers wrote concerning the idea of reincarnation, why do the Christian churches so adamently reject it's possible reality? Is it because reincarnation gives a person more than one chance, removing the tactic of desperation? Is it because it would make Jesus' supposed resurrection allegorical and not such a big deal, as we all die and are reborn? What would happen if Christians began to openly accept the concept of reincarnation? Would the world stop spinning?

Because it is not what the bible teaches.

Have you read the thread? There has been a ongoing discussion about the scriptural evidence of reincarnation in the Bible, and Jesus himself taught it. You can't credibly say, "the bible doesn't teach it," without refuting the arguments on the table that it does.

The bible also teaches the pre-existence of the soul.

The concept behind reincarnation is that you keep living new lives until you become perfect on your own. Christianity teaches that there is none good but God and that we can be accepted even if we are not perfect. That is a very big difference. Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself is, according to Jesus, the most important thing. You don't really need more than one "chance" to do that. Reincarnation is sort of an excuse for not taking responsibility for what you do to others and is therefore counter to what Christians believe.

There is no unified theory of reincarnation. Many religions adopt it, and teach their own variety, Native American, Hindu, Buddhist, Essenes, Pathagoreans, Gnostics, Wiccan, and there many who have never been taught in reincarnation believe in it because of their own experiences.

reply to post by windword


Dear windword,

Have you read the thread? There has been a ongoing discussion about the scriptural evidence of reincarnation in the Bible, and Jesus himself taught it. You can't credibly say, "the bible doesn't teach it," without refuting the arguments on the table that it does. The bible also teaches the pre-existence of the soul.

There are people in the bible who died and were brought back to life, that is true. They were brought back to life; but, remained them completely and kept all their memories. As for the per-existence of the soul. We were not eternally here before, it is in Genesis. We are created as both body and soul. Male and female to be even more precise. Taking a couple of verses out of context doesn't change anything about what the bible teaches.

Jesus would not have died on the cross for our sins if we didn't need salvation. How many times would one have to live this life before his death would be enough for them to find acceptance? The apostles understood that there was no re-incarnation and never preached it. They preached eternal salvation and love.

reply to post by windword

it was prophesied that Elijah would have a "new name: in Isaiah 62. So John did not lie when he was being questioned in court about who he was.

I'm currently on a moratorium that restricts me from discussing the Christian Canon, aka B word. So I've contacted someone outside of the secret cult to which I belong to discuss this. The name has been withheld due to the fact that if a database were to be assembled of all people not of the secret cult, then by process of elimination, my cult membership would be exposed.

[high squeaky voice of indeterminate gender] Yes, I've had a look at this particular passage of Isaiah 62. It has nothing to do with Elijah. It is, in fact, one of those verses regarding a fictitious glory of Jerusalem. Here, take a look:

1 For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until her righteousness go forth as brightness, and her salvation as a lamp that burns. 2 The nations shall see your righteousness, and all kings your glory, and you shall be called by a new name, which the mouth of Yahweh shall name. 3 You shall also be a crown of beauty in the hand of Yahweh, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God. 4 You shall no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall your land any more be termed Desolate: but you shall be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah; for Yahweh delights in you, and your land shall be married.
--WEB

If anything, Jesus may have been alluding to this passage when he said:

Matthew 5: 14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can’t be hidden. 15 Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house. 16 Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
-- WEB

If I happened to be of the same secret cult as pthena, I would be inclined to say that Jesus makes allusion to the verse, and then contradicts it completely by saying the people are the light and not the city. Moreover, the Father is glorified by the people's light, and not the city.

Well, that's what I would say if I was in the same secret cult with pthena, but I'm not, so I won't say it.

-- Name withheld by request --

Well, there you have it. That's what I would have written if it weren't for this moratorium.

reply to post by pthena


Lol. You are very mysterious man!

As far as the answer provided. Fair enough. It was the people of Israel that are (still yet) to get a new name, TBA.

reply to post by dominicus

If im lying like you assume and speculate, may God himself strike me down this Friday

That would be a mercy to us all, but he doesn't work that way. If you really were a christian you'd know not to tempt the Lord your God. That verbal diarhea you suffer from keeps exposing you for what you are.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


So some souls that are created aren't new?

That STILL leaves the same question: where did this "old" soul come from?

You're dodging the question without answering it.

reply to post by AQuestion

There are people in the bible who died and were brought back to life, that is true. They were brought back to life; but, remained them completely and kept all their memories.

Nobody, that I know of, is asserting that those who were supposedly resurrected from the dead were reincarnated. Although if you take these resurrections metaphorically, not literally, they could be seem as an allegory to reincarnation, as the dead body is reincarnated by the soul.

However, those who were, supposedly, resurrected, and those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' death, did die again, correct? Wouldn't that invalidate the argument often given to refute reincarnation, "It is appointed for a man to die once, and then the Judgement." Additionally, isn't it possible that after the judgment, God might allow that soul to go back again?

As for the per-existence of the soul. We were not eternally here before, it is in Genesis. We are created as both body and soul. Male and female to be even more precise.

So you believe that the soul is generated when an egg is fertilized in a biological method, or that God blows a brand new, innocent soul into a fetus, at some point before birth? What of those who never accept the biblical story of Jesus. Do they go hell for eternity? Would an abortion guarantee that soul's passage to heaven?

Taking a couple of verses out of context doesn't change anything about what the bible teaches. Jesus would not have died on the cross for our sins if we didn't need salvation. How many times would one have to live this life before his death would be enough for them to find acceptance? The apostles understood that there was no re-incarnation and never preached it. They preached eternal salvation and love.

What about the saints and apostles that were promised eternal life through physical resurrection? Do you believe that they are asleep in the grave, waiting for the second coming of Jesus to awaken them, so that they can begin their eternal life, like other Christians have told me. Or, do you think that they are sitting in paradise drinking heavenly pina coladas?

When Jesus said that the "born again" soul is free as wind, does that mean the born again can reincarnate, in order to continue the "Great Work" that Jesus charged the apostles with?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You know Lonewolf, I have sometimes followed your posting history to "quote mine" your posts for the funniest and most unchristian things that proclaimed Christians say. I have a collection. I'm gonna make a book, and you're going to make me rich!

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by dominicus

 

If im lying like you assume and speculate, may God himself strike me down this Friday

That would be a mercy to us all, but he doesn't work that way. If you really were a christian you'd know not to tempt the Lord your God. That verbal diarhea you suffer from keeps exposing you for what you are.

edit on 28-6-2013 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Talk about "verbal diarrhea". This is probably one of the best examples of it. You spew "diarrhea" in every thread you disagree with.

reply to post by windword


Dear windword,

However, those who were, supposedly, resurrected, and those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' death, did die again, correct? Wouldn't that invalidate the argument often given to refute reincarnation, "It is appointed for a man to die once, and then the Judgement." Additionally, isn't it possible that after the judgment, God might allow that soul to go back again?

Who do you think was resurrected at the time of Jesus' death? He was very clear with the one on the cross next to him that he would be with him in heaven soon. "It is appointed for a man to die once" is fairly clear and you quoted it. As for what is possible, anything is; but, the question is what Christians believe.

So you believe that the soul is generated when an egg is fertilized in a biological method, or that God blows a brand new, innocent soul into a fetus, at some point before birth? What of those who never accept the biblical story of Jesus. Do they go hell for eternity? Would an abortion guarantee that soul's passage to heaven?

The bible says that God knew us before we were born, he conceived us into being, what we do with it is up to us. When have you ever read me claim that those who don't know the bible story of Jesus must go to hell? I have never said that and nobody on this site will say I have and if they do, they better quote something I wrote. I will repeat things I have said, it is not about knowing how to pronounce Jesus in perfect Hebrew or even spelling it "properly". It is not about knowing the story. I know many christians think it is; but, they forget that even in the old testament it said that none could say they did not know because all can see his works and he is in all his works. It is about having the heart and mind of Jesus, he explained it. Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.

What about the saints and apostles that were promised eternal life through physical resurrection? Do you believe that they are asleep in the grave, waiting for the second coming of Jesus to awaken them, so that they can begin their eternal life, like other Christians have told me. Or, do you think that they are sitting in paradise drinking heavenly pina coladas? When Jesus said that the "born again" soul is free as wind, does that mean the born again can reincarnate, in order to continue the "Great Work" that Jesus charged the apostles with?

Why if you believe in reincarnation do you need Christians to believe in it? The apostles did not expect to be resurrected as you imply. We are told that we will not need these bodies once we die and will be given new ones and that doesn't mean physical in the sense that we think of it.

As for Pina Coladas, sounds good. It is going to be over 100 degrees all weekend. No need to be so serious, we are just discussing death. Been there and done that. Lets say you died and then the next thing you knew you were in heaven, how much time could have passed that you were not aware of. Time is relative. I don't believe in purgatory, I am not a Catholic. I do not believe we sit around waiting because I do not believe we will know the difference, we will not be aware until the judgement. I believe Moses is in heaven. I believe people from the past are in heaven because it says

William Peter Blatty, the author of "The Exorcist" had an interesting take on things. He wondered what if God had split his personality into sub-parts. We are emotional beings having experiences using words and images to come to grips with our experiences and define ourselves. The collection of emotions you experience and how you deal with them is the definition of you. If the emotions you are cease being part of you then you are no longer you. That is the issue with reincarnation.

reply to post by Akragon

Your comment and quote of scripture is way out of context. What your doing here is getting something Jesus said and flipping to fit your comfort zone. When Jesus spoke about being born again he meant born again in the spirit by baptism in water, not reincarnation. He saw the Pharisees were evil in almost everything they did but advertised themselves as the holiest most righteous men. Jesus saw this time and time again in his travels and was just putting them in there place which is right next to Satan and publizing it.

Scripture shows that man will buy into almost anything if it sounds good and doesn't force them to make sacrifices(figuritively). Its quite laughable so many beleive in this idea of reincarnation. Yeah its much easier to live any which way you want in life when you know eventually you will just come back again to make things right at some point.

It is much harder to swallow the reality that you get one chance and if you screw it up you are damned for an eternity. This New Age movement is ultimately a combination of half a dozen or more religions and they basically grab the enticing stuff from each one.

Repent and ask the lord Jesus into your heart because the time is short people. Th easy road is not always the best path to take especially when dealing with your eternal soul.

but to come back requires guides or being OVERSEEN so actions in previous life govern next 1 subjectively feels... so doesn't seem as simple as choice w/o guide or overseer of soul/spirit/internal energy...

NAMASTE*******

reply to post by windword

The Moratorium is real. I called it myself here: Moratorium on secret cult's discussion of B word

It was the people of Israel that are (still yet) to get a new name

Rather than circumvent the moratorium of the B word, I will merely discuss generic Hebrew fables, and give due mention of a non-cult member from whom I paraphrase.

Israel the man got that name. He used to be Jacob, who did his brother great harm with regards to a birthright. The brother Esau became a great nation that could have destroyed the family of Jacob, as would have been within the code to do.

Jacob in fear of death to himself and family, wrestled a man all night, as if wrestling god. Therefore he got a new name. Esau did not retaliate against Jacob/Israel, but received him as a brother.

My opinion is this: such renamings are not a matter of blood inheritance. They seem to be the result of individual life experiences and dealings with the gods. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

What is "TBA"?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

So some souls that are created aren't new?

That STILL leaves the same question: where did this "old" soul come from?

You're dodging the question without answering it.

edit on 28-6-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

I am not dodging the question . . . you just have zero reading comprehension.

If you believe in old souls its likely reincarnation . . .

If not then its a new soul . . .

FYI you just made up a new question and called it the same question . . .

Please don't ever reply to me again as it will most likely be ignored.

reply to post by AQuestion

This is worth quoting:

We are emotional beings having experiences using words and images to come to grips with our experiences and define ourselves. The collection of emotions you experience and how you deal with them is the definition of you. If the emotions you are cease being part of you then you are no longer you. That is the issue with reincarnation.

Not just emotions, many aspects that make the person are body dependent eg. will, choice, etc. When these cease due to death of the body, what remains is not the same person her/him self.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by AQuestion

This is worth quoting:

We are emotional beings having experiences using words and images to come to grips with our experiences and define ourselves. The collection of emotions you experience and how you deal with them is the definition of you. If the emotions you are cease being part of you then you are no longer you. That is the issue with reincarnation.

Not just emotions, many aspects that make the person are body dependent eg. will, choice, etc. When these cease due to death of the body, what remains is not the same person her/him self.

Dear pthena,

I completely disagree. Your body may limit your options but it does not determine your choices and we all have them. If I lose my arms, I still remain me. I am not my arms though I have them, I am my emotions, thoughts and beliefs. I express those through my choices and have the courage to take responsibility for them and change my beliefs and choices when confronted with situations a second time or confirm them by choosing the same.

reply to post by beastnwokillah


You believe whatever makes you happy my friend...

IF a belief that hell awaits those that do not except the dogmatic views of your religion...Then you must come to terms with your judgements... And No amount of praying will change that either.

For certian there is a "world to come"... And how you meet that world will ultimately depend on your actions in this life... And somethings are not forgiven... In this world... Or the one to come.

But as i've said... Believe whatever you like...