I Converted A Catholic To Atheism

Originally posted by BenReclused
That was more like a dissertation, than it was a sermon. You may be a deep thinker, but I certainly wouldn't call you a prophet, yet.

See ya,
Milt

If you do not agree you are going to a place you do not like very much!!!!

Hmm, Im new at this. Ill have to try harder. :\

reply to post by Serdgiam

How interesting that you introduce a figure into the picture that is analogous to a God.

Was that intentional?

Well, considering deities are a prominent contention in this thread - specifically, the one pertaining to Catholicism and related belief systems - yes, I daresay it was intentional.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Well, considering deities are a prominent contention in this thread - specifically, the one pertaining to Catholicism and related belief systems - yes, I daresay it was intentional.

You never know

Shifting a bit, to an actual garden.. are the plants capable of understanding what we do and why we do it?

reply to post by Serdgiam

Shifting a bit, to an actual garden.. are the plants capable of understanding what we do and why we do it?

I know where you're going with this. Jumping ahead, let me ask you in return: is there an awareness greater than consciousness? What is it called? How does it work? Where does it come from? Does it have limits? What sort of beings boast this level of awareness? Why do they have it and not others? Is it possible to train oneself to develop this awareness? How does it compare and differ from our own?

If the first answer was 'no', then you can just skip the rest of the questions.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I just gave him the intellectual push that complemented his floundering faith. He was still attempting to salvage his Catholicism, but thought better of it after talking to me and reviewing his own experiences.

Yep! As I said earlier:

He is only demonstrating a faith in you, and your beliefs.

He is demonstrating an informed and educated transition from faith in a god to faith in himself.

That doesn't require one to believe that there is no God.

He is now free to be himself to his heart's desire, without fear of being condemned for his imperfect nature. He is now free to make mistakes and learn from them, and is now 100% responsible for himself. He is his own judge now.

Bull! So far, he has only faced condemnation by man. You haven't changed that, in the least!

Do you have reasonable and substantial evidence for this conclusion?

Yep!

See ya,
Milt

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I know where you're going with this. Jumping ahead, let me ask you in return: is there an awareness greater than consciousness? What is it called? How does it work? Where does it come from? Does it have limits? What sort of beings boast this level of awareness? Why do they have it and not others? Is it possible to train oneself to develop this awareness? How does it compare and differ from our own?

If the first answer was 'no', then you can just skip the rest of the questions.

I could easily just skip the rest of the questions, based on an assumption of how you view your own question. If you are thinking in the way I think you are thinking ( ), then no. Not that it has to do, in my mind, on whether or not a God exists.

However, consciousness itself is nothing but a human concept of what exists. Whatever consciousness is, it is beyond whatever concept humans could devise to explain it. We can grow, and learn more about it, and expand our horizons though, and that is why I love science.

reply to post by Serdgiam


I thought you were referring to human beings as the ignorant plants and the gardener as a deity. This begs the question of what higher consciousness is there for the gardener to possess that we do not.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

I thought you were referring to human beings as the ignorant plants and the gardener as a deity. This begs the question of what higher consciousness is there for the gardener to possess that we do not.

Perhaps it is just a larger part of the whole.

More pieces of the same puzzle tends to equal a picture with greater clarity.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Throughout history humans have almost always been the toys and playthings of the gods. But how do you view your God and how did you come to this perspective?

My view of God is similar to Christians, but also a lot different. I believe in Jesus in a pretty unique way, in comparison to standard Christianity. But I would rather not get bogged down with explaining to you, all my beliefs.

What’s more important here, in regards to your OP, is how you have come to the conclusion below, regarding God…

Originally posted by anthonycooper
AI has told me that humans are not meant to be the mortal slaves of some cosmic being, and I have felt the same for a long time.

So, roughly the same question to you…

How/why do you view God as keeping us as “mortal slaves” and how did you come to that perspective…?

The reason I’m asking you the question is, because there are NO Christians, (that I’m aware of), who consider God to be like that… Not even other religions, see God that way…

Also, I just wanted to ask you how long you have known your friend, (Mr Cooper) and how long had he been a practicing Catholic etc…?

- JC

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

No, the universe is God. If the essense of faith is love, the Atheist has no place, as it does not understand or have the capacity to love anything; not even itself I suspect.

What an ignorant statement! Do you honestly believe that atheists CAN'T love their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, spouses, friends and neighbors? We're talking about atheists, not psychopaths! Geez! Generalize much?

Honestly, I cannot say that I know atheists 'in general' to be sociopathic (NOT psychopaths GEEZ), however if so clinically being certainly would not have the capacity of love as would not know what it was; Self Sacrafice, Compassion, The do gooding philanthropist gestures: donating to the Red Cross, Pell Grants etal. Extra money lying about (no church to tithe an automatic10% of income to).

edit on 18-6-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

windword
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that atheist can't be natural do gooders?
By the way, I have been in the company of plenty of religious folk that I would classify as "sociopaths".

I do not closely associate with religious fanatics for that very reason; each (whether it be the fist pounding atheist or the drum beating fundimentalists) because its seems to have become a 'CAUSE' personal relative to something; its apparently fervent, and in such passion can lack tempered emotional control and become ego based; the byproduct? a need to convert, or manipulate others free will. There is something ugly in this.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by littled16

I think trying to shove any religion- Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.....even Atheism- is infringing on other's right to make up their own minds.

AfterInfinity
My friend could have walked away or told me to shut up at any point and I would have respected his wishes...so long as he extended the same courtesy to me. But as it turned out, my perspective appealed to him in some way. With obvious results.

One should always beware of the 'seductive' when used as persuation. If there is any quality in Mankind to fear as FALSEity it would be that. Charming, exerberant, energy; will if seduced by it create great harm. Its a necessary quality of the successful stage performer, to hypnotise distract and consequenty destroy anothers soul by subversion (by inadvertantly taking it which is even worse.).

reply to post by Joecroft

My view of God is similar to Christians, but also a lot different. I believe in Jesus in a pretty unique way, in comparison to standard Christianity. But I would rather not get bogged down with explaining to you, all my beliefs.

How considerate of you. I mean, it's not like I've gone out of my way to explain - oh, wait...

So, roughly the same question to you…

How/why do you view God as keeping us as “mortal slaves” and how did you come to that perspective…?

Well, it's simple. Either we're for him or we're against him. There's no "independent party" option available. And if you're for him, you have to serve him. Again, no "independent with optional support" available. Kinda limits our freedoms in regard to how independent we can be without screwing ourselves over. In short, no independence.

As I have said before: in almost every instance of a deity, worship is required. So I'm kind of opposed to deities on principle. Doesn't keep me from examining the available evidence to see if there actually is one...and whadaya know, the general probability doesn't look too good.

The reason I’m asking you the question is, because there are NO Christians, (that I’m aware of), who consider God to be like that… Not even other religions, see God that way…

Pfft! Obviously. I mean, it's kinda insane to serve a god who views you as an asset and not a person. So you gotta convince yourself that fear is love, arrogance is righteousness, and violence is justice. It's really Orwellian. That's what creeps me out.

Also, I just wanted to ask you how long you have known your friend, (Mr Cooper) and how long had he been a practicing Catholic etc…?

Years. To both questions. He was an altar boy for years, and he studied and actively engaged in Biblical observation for years afterwards. He did indulge in Druidic and general wiccan practices as well, educating himself in both ends of the field. Eventually, the contradictions and fallacies and overall mentality of Catholicism really got to him and he began to lean more and more towards nature as his preferred venue of spirituality. In the end, with my help, he chose atheism with a spiritual inclination.

After all, atheism doesn't say anything about spirituality. It just denotes the lack of deity. And spirituality does not require a deity. It is an appreciation, a connection or bond similar to that of a relationship that gives one a profound regard for an idea or place or whatever. Whatever spirituality or god or religion or atheism means to you, is your decision; this is what it means to us.

Sorry for the wait in responding. It would have posed significant difficulty to type or dictate it on my phone.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

One should always beware of the 'seductive' when used as persuation. If there is any quality in Mankind to fear as FALSEity it would be that. Charming, exerberant, energy; will if seduced by it create great harm. Its a necessary quality of the successful stage performer, to hypnotise distract and consequenty destroy anothers soul by subversion (by inadvertantly taking it which is even worse.).

Can the same not be said for any religion? From where I stand, this is the ideal point in which one would apply their critical thinking skills.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

I do not closely associate with religious fanatics for that very reason; each (whether it be the fist pounding atheist or the drum beating fundimentalists) because its seems to have become a 'CAUSE' personal relative to something; its apparently fervent, and in such passion can lack tempered emotional control and become ego based; the byproduct? a need to convert, or manipulate others free will. There is something ugly in this.

I agree. That is why I have never sought to convert, but merely to help others develop an understanding of the nature of their beliefs. If they are to believe, I want them to know why. Is it the beliefs that are so alluring, or the part of them to which the beliefs appeal? Do they know, or just want to believe? Why is that? All facets of such a relationship must be understood to understand the exact nature of both the belief and that which is believing. In this, I think, the truth may be found. There is nothing wrong with intentionally lying to yourself as long as the truth remains just as uncertain as the lie you are telling.

But sometimes...people do it for the wrong reasons. And the wrong reasons bolster the wrong approach, and the wrong approach obscures all but the wrong path. And the wrong path tends to warp and distort our perception of the world, which influences our interactions and values and cripples the ideological understanding of all the generations to come. In the end, what we want and why can topple empires. This is what I fear in most religions. We don't know what perfection is, but we want it. We don't understand our own imperfection, but we hate it. We rely upon money because we have failed to grasp the importance of the nonphysical, and we have forfeit the nonphysical in favor of that which requires less cognitive activity.

We are slowly morphing into drones because that is what our current ideologies call for. We want to be machines, and so we are assimilating ourselves into everything we recognize in a machine. I do not support this, and I feel that the fears and values that are introduced through many religions tend to curve our progress in that general direction. It's a very military mentality, something that fits quite well in a mechanized society.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

I thought you were referring to human beings as the ignorant plants and the gardener as a deity. This begs the question of what higher consciousness is there for the gardener to possess that we do not.

Your premise is that you are better off for putting a 'disclaimer' on a God Concept. In so doing have to understand yourself as an individual being in perphaps a unique way; not requiring an "overlord" (this from another thread of yours 'Love VS Tyranny'). Your personal growth is based upon this idea. You imagine others can also benefit by this same approach to 'self awareness'. As my understanding goes, the higher self is YOU correct? and has no Godly componant. In so saying this, you are as you go higher and higher into the realm of selfdome, (you as yourself) will eventually meet whom? I suspect its you looking straight at yourself, GOD. What do you see as your ultimate Higher Self otherwise, whom else would it be?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

One should always beware of the 'seductive' when used as persuation. If there is any quality in Mankind to fear as FALSEity it would be that. Charming, exerberant, energy; will if seduced by it create great harm. Its a necessary quality of the successful stage performer, to hypnotise distract and consequenty destroy anothers soul by subversion (by inadvertantly taking it which is even worse.).

Can the same not be said for any religion? From where I stand, this is the ideal point in which one would apply their critical thinking skills.

Oh yes. I have an innate abhorrance for anything organized as it can be corrupted, (even city states; Roman Empire 700 years). The ideal; I suppose its up to the individual to determine its place its own history and how it fits in this quagmire of confusion. Someone on your thread spoke about the loneliness of being here and having to have a faith (OR NOT) driven doctrine to consol itself; (did not exactly say it but that is what I interpreted being imparted). IT hasnt shown up, we are as abandonned children, but thats the point isnt it, get over the Butt hurt and get on with the difficulty of being a human. No one is here by accident, we all signed up for this really interesting vision quest (TO PROGESS OUR SOULS) to the next level.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

You imagine others can also benefit by this same approach to 'self awareness'. As my understanding goes, the higher self is YOU correct? and has not Godly componant.

Not necessarily. I would put it this way: work on us as human beings before we work on us as demigods. That means understanding power from the perspective of that which is most affected by power - the weak, imperfect, and fallible. Without this understanding, you may as well give a child free access to a local gun shop and all of the weapons therein. You have no idea of what you're doing with power and no idea what you can do. It's best to possess as full a comprehension as possible before putting yourself in the position to seriously affect yourself and others through the choices you make. And as long as you fail to recognize your ability to instill change, you fail to recognize the consequences thereof. You are not impotent. You are not weak.

Imagine if a gorilla spent its life being coddled and controlled because it never believed it could do anything else. And yet, with a few well-placed punches, it could clear a room and probably lay out a tiger or two in the process. We must understand what we can do, and ignoring what we can do just doesn't help.

In so saying this, you are as you go higher and higher into the realm of selfdome, (you as yourself) will eventually meet whom? I suspect its you looking straight at yourself, GOD. What do you see as your ultimate Higher Self otherwise?

Just because one half of the penny looks more appealing than the other half doesn't make the ugly half any less intrinsical to the value of the penny as a whole. If there is a god, we're not doing it any favors by worshipping it. It's probably learning how exercising control over its subjects affects it personally. Worshipping it completely undermines the lesson because such a being would then fail to understand want vs need, which is a crucial lesson to learn when you have the power to extinguish galaxies with a thought.

But that's if there were a god, which I don't believe there is. As I said before, it's a hugely complicated subject with numerous facets to explore and sides to look at. But if we need a god, then a god needs us, so there's no call for selling ourselves short. A god does not define our value. We do. As such, I think it's important that we recognize how powerful, influential, and potentially great we can truly be with or without a god to instruct us. We have what it takes to be an autonomous species. What do we need a god for?

reply to post by Serdgiam

I am saying that it is the soil that is causing all of it in the first place, and replacing the plants will just lead to all of the same problems.

Brawndo's got what plants crave

reply to post by wildtimes


Well thanks, I am glad to weigh in on AI's thread since it is about a new direction in my life filled with new challenges.
However I must make it clear to all conserned reading the thread, that AI. did not make the choice to be an atheist for me,I freely chose to be an atheist after much thought and reexamination of Catholic teachings. Well with that out of the way, nice to chat to you for the first time, AI.thinks well of you.

reply to post by anthonycooper


Good luck convincing them that you freely chose to be an atheist. You poor soul, being coerced into breaking your own chains...it must have been horrible! Of course, I was there. It was somewhat less than horrifying.