The Zimmerman Trial

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
Stop saying that he saw Trayvon beating George up. Whatever he saw, it obviously wasn't the kind of beating George described.

Stop saying that what he saw wasn't Martin beating George up. Obviously, with the state of beat-up Zimmermans face was, the dude was beaten by Martin. Fresh blood and all. Even Zimmermans neighbor couldn't ID Zimmerman because of the beating he took.

Your downplaying the beating isn't working. Sorry. It 'obviously' happened. (to use your word)

Originally posted by riffraff
Oh finally I get a response from the pro Martin crowd. Not the post I wanted a response on but fine. Your above statement concedes that GZ was on bottom. I don't pretend to know who was on bottom. I think GZ's mma instructor was disappointed in him before this all happened. GZ is medically obese; after 18months of alleged training he was not in fighting shape. TM on the other hand was athletic, fought for fun, and was "ripped" I'd say 7% body fat or less. 30 seconds of fighting for your life is a long time, a lot of wasted energy grappling, punches missing. I read your posts you know as well as I know fighting for your life is a sprint/not a marathon. People burn out quick. Now 30 seconds of fighting for your life while fat and losing---that's an eternity. And I know you know this.

You have no evidence that Trayvon "fought for fun" and you have no idea whether or not George was any good at at any aspect of martial arts or self-defence yet, but you're quite content to portray him as a little, chubby unthreatening guy.

Originally posted by riffraff
I've asked this 3 or 4 times now and I can't get an answer from the Martin crowd: aren't you mad you were lied to by the MSM? You were sold a lie before you had a chance to make up your own mind.

The msm's responses to this incident are a different issue entirely, and have nothing to do with whether George is a murderer, or not.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
Stop saying that he saw Trayvon beating George up. Whatever he saw, it obviously wasn't the kind of beating George described.

Stop saying that what he saw wasn't Martin beating George up. Obviously, with the state of beat-up Zimmermans face was, the dude was beaten by Martin. Fresh blood and all. Even Zimmermans neighbor couldn't ID Zimmerman because of the beating he took.

Your downplaying the beating isn't working. Sorry. It 'obviously' happened. (to use your word)

I'm not downplayin anything. Anyone who trains in a fighting gym would know that such scrapes are part and parcel of the game.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Yep ... I wouldn't get out of my car either. If Zimmerman had stayed in his car and if Martin had just gone home instead of 'circling Zimmermans car' or confronting him ... we wouldn't be here talking about it. I'm holding to my opinion .... stupid meets stupid ... bad blood meets bad blood. That's what it looks like to me .. especially after hearing about the 'circling the car' that was just played. (it was dumb to circle the car and it was dumb to leave the car after being circled) (the attitude of 'circling the car' matches the attitude Martin showed on his social media posts) I hadn't heard about 'circling the car' before now ...

reply to post by IvanAstikov

You are back to interjecting.

FACT - John Good saw Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding the snot out of him.
FACT - that doesn't mean that is how it started or how it ended.
FACT - The person on top wouldn't need to scream for help, the person on the bottom would.
FACT - you have no knowledge of the fighting ability level of Zimmerman or Martin.
FACT - Martin was able to get the better of Zimmerman so Zimmerman wasn't as good a fighter as you want to interject.

reply to post by FlyersFan


same here.

I never heard that TM circled the car before GZ left the car.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov

Originally posted by riffraff

You have no evidence that Trayvon "fought for fun" and you have no idea whether or not George was any good at at any aspect of martial arts or self-defence yet, but you're quite content to portray him as a little, chubby unthreatening guy.

Originally posted by riffraff
I've asked this 3 or 4 times now and I can't get an answer from the Martin crowd: aren't you mad you were lied to by the MSM? You were sold a lie before you had a chance to make up your own mind.

The msm's responses to this incident are a different issue entirely, and have nothing to do with whether George is a murderer, or not.

well i think my post on page 63, where i posted TM text messages where he and whoever he was talking to shows that he enjoyed fighting.

it also shows that, that he had a Thug mentally by all the talk of drugs, guns, and fighting.

go back and read them. better yet

Originally posted by ugie1028
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

same here.

I never heard that TM circled the car before GZ left the car.

watch the video reenactment when the cops ride through with him it's in there .

Originally posted by riffraff


I've asked this 3 or 4 times now and I can't get an answer from the Martin crowd: aren't you mad you were lied to by the MSM? You were sold a lie before you had a chance to make up your own mind.

I'm not sure it's as polarised as your use of the term "The Martin crowd" would suggest. In fact the mainstream media I've read has been fairly balanced, whereas the internet has run wild - with the pro-Zimmerman voices at least as inaccurate.

From the start we saw

- Martin painted as some kind of major crime kingpin (while Zimmerman's much more obvious run-ins with the law were inadmissible in the discussion because 'unproven' despite the fact that Martin had never got nearly as close to the law as Z)

- Zimmerman's story taken as gospel - despite the obvious inconsistencies

- Martin's parents described as profiteers in order to discredit them; absurd suggestions that they had given up their right to a criminal trial for money

- Martin portrayed as a racist, as though this surgically removed any racial dimension from Zimmerman's actions

- Martin's route criticised as being "a pathway frequented by criminals" in order to imply that he was one; that route described as being on private property in order to suggest he was trespassing

- Martin's behaviour described as suspicious - "looking in houses" etc - with no evidence that he was doing anything strange outside the imagination of Zimmerman



It's not so much that these things are all untrue. It is just that they cannot be known. But a faction of the pro-Zimmerman lobby always presents them as inarguable, while extending Zimmerman every benefit of the doubt.

For the record, I suspect he'll walk. It might even be that he should. But what is unedifying is seeing a boy shot dead with - initially - so little care or thought from the authorities; and the scrambling by gun advocates and others to create an image of a tragic situation that is so callously and energetically biased.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
Stop saying that he saw Trayvon beating George up. Whatever he saw, it obviously wasn't the kind of beating George described.

Stop saying that what he saw wasn't Martin beating George up. Obviously, with the state of beat-up Zimmermans face was, the dude was beaten by Martin. Fresh blood and all. Even Zimmermans neighbor couldn't ID Zimmerman because of the beating he took.

Your downplaying the beating isn't working. Sorry. It 'obviously' happened. (to use your word)

I'm not downplayin anything. Anyone who trains in a fighting gym would know that such scrapes are part and parcel of the game.

any one training in a gym, is not fighting on or next to concrete. and i don't think they allow you to pound your head on the ring floor.

Lunch recess. I just read that there are 200 potential witness' and that this trial is supposed to take four weeks. If they keep going at this pace, it'll be a lot longer than four weeks. How long does it take for an FBI Voice Analyst to say ... I'm an expert and I'm tell'n ya' it's impossible to know who is screaming! .... ugh

Anyways ... more after lunch.

reply to post by hounddoghowlie


Thank you hounddoghowlie! You beat me to the punch. You see Ivan? Not only do I have evidence, I have proof. I don't say random things just to say them. If I throw my hat in the ring you can bet I've got a reason to do so.

If you can't concede that Martin fought for fun after reading his texts....well, I'm here to exchange intellectual currency and you must not have any

Listening to Zimmerman's report, I cannot believe that Trayvon Martin was beating George up, George repeatedly tried to sit up, tried to slide out from under Martin, repeatedly cried out for "help" and NEVER once took a punch or touched Martin, trying to get him off or to fight back...

Also, Zimmerman said he got on top of Trayvon after the shot and was "holding Trayvon's hands away from his body". An onlooker appeared and asked if he was OK. That's when SPD officer arrived.

How did Trayvon's hands get back underneath his body if Zimmerman was holding his hands away from his body?

reply to post by hounddoghowlie


Is "keyboard warrior" not a term you are familiar with? Teens have been bs'ing since the dawn of language, and without independent confirmatory evidence you should never totally believe everything they say. Anyone can smack-talk on the internet, and teenage boys are among the most common participants.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


What so many participants allege in this thread is that Martin attacked Zimmerman. Based upon what, I am not sure, it could only be by Zimmerman's statements.

We have a dead boy. So he cannot provide us with his side.

BUT, and a big but...We are going to see if there are prior inconsistent statements by Zimmerman and if his story meshes with his call to 911 non-emergency.

Put all the witness statements aside. If Zimmerman get's tarnished here, the jury will not believe anything he has said.

So far the 911 tape does not reconcile with GZ's description of events.

This is crucial. It doesn't matter if Trayvon was handing George his lunch grilled, It is going to matter who attacked who.

One can only assume, at this point, that Z boy was stalking and chasing Trayvon. That is evidence that was introduced by the way of the 911 tapes. Zboys initial statements must match up with the fornesics and the 911 tapes (because they are the only ones that can speak for the deceased).

Originally posted by hounddoghowlie
any one training in a gym, is not fighting on or next to concrete. and i don't think they allow you to pound your head on the ring floor.

edit on 1-7-2013 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)

Yes, that's right - and you will still see more nasty injuries in a gym than you see on George's head that night.

reply to post by GrantedBail


I know... People always talk about Zimmerman's injuries... Well, if we're going by injuries, Trayvon's is a bit more serious.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov

Originally posted by hounddoghowlie
any one training in a gym, is not fighting on or next to concrete. and i don't think they allow you to pound your head on the ring floor.

edit on 1-7-2013 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)

Yes, that's right - and you will still see more nasty injuries in a gym than you see on George's head that night.

as i pointed out in another post to you way back, most that train in those gyms are training as professional fighters, and 18 lessons hardly makes any one a professional.

you would expect to see more nasty injuries from professional fighters than you would a a novice or even a young teenager.

Evening! Well it is here in the UK anyhow.

This case isn't getting block on this side of the pond, so I was wondering if one of my ATS colleagues could recommend a Stateside media source that outlines the day to day events of the trial - which witnesses have been called, their main points etc.

Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by hounddoghowlie
as i pointed out in another post to you way back, most that train in those gyms are training as professional fighters, and 18 lessons hardly makes any one a professional.

He'd been having 3 hr lessons, 3 days a week for the previous 18mth. He'd lost 50lbs in weight since the time he'd been a member. He was likely in the best physical shape he'd ever been in his life and he wants everyone to believe that he got ragdolled by a 17 yr old who was 40lb lighter than him.

Originally posted by hounddoghowlie
you would expect to see more nasty injuries from professional fighters than you would a a novice or even a young teenager.

edit on 1-7-2013 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)

Injuries can happen at any level and those that take part in such training are aware of the risks. Do you even want to know if Zimmerman was a promising mma student and perfectly capable of fending off a 30 second onslaught, even if he'd been clocked with a good hit at the beginning??