Jehovah's Witnesses believe UN will ban Religion

Originally posted by miriam0566
reply to post by chickenshoes

ON ALCOHOLISM

the problem with your statements is that the watchtower doesnt discourage professional help when needed. like i said, even with watchtowers back to the 50's there was no mention of professional help.

Look, I don't have time to look it up, but as a kid, the elders and articles in the watchtower always discouraged outside help from a mental health professional. It's true, and no I can't show you where I saw it, but suffice it to say it was drummed into my head from the day I was born.

i sorry to hear about your father. but the fact is, he cannot be absolved of his responsibility in the matter.

And who made you the judge of my father?

You know, to tell you the truth, I'm getting tired of repeating myself. If you're not going to listen, your not going to listen.

Apparently you are some kind of alcoholism expert, fine I bow to your superior knowlege (even though your only experience of this disease is having a "friend" who you say is an alcoholic.)

as for your mother not doing research, i feel bad. because they are constantly encouraging people to do personal study. to find things out for themselves.

She didn't research because it was not encouraged. The only reasearch that was encouraged when I was there was from current copies of the Watchtower at the watchtower study on Sundays, or whatever publication they happen to be studying on Tues. night, and of course personal bible study accompanied by the Kingdom Ministry, or the Aid to Bible Understanding, plus your assigned bible reading. There was no questioning allowed whatsoever, lest you be labled an apostate.

She did, however write to the governing body, who, as I already stated, told her nearly the same thing, but in a bit nicer, roundabout way.

So, it's not that she did nothing but accept, she went straight to the top and got nearly the same response.

on the other subject

sure russell was imperfect. but so was moses, so was abraham, so was job.

imperfection doesnt mean that god wont use a person to fulfill his will. the preaching work has to be done. if you have chosen to leave because of people in that imperfect organization, then so be it. that is your decision.

Oh, you can bet Russel was imperfect. He was a pedophile as well as a flagrant drunkard. He had dealings in Egyptology and other spiritistic practices.

I'm sorry, but I will not follow the whims of 12 elderly men cloistered in Brooklyn.

Neither I, nor you have any proof whatsoever that what Russel began, and what is being carried out to this day is from God. You may agree with it, but so what? You are also an imperfect human. You're just replacing an organization's opinion with your own.


This has become entirely non productive, and I cannot reason with your use of circular logic.



[edit on 31-10-2008 by chickenshoes]

reply to post by miriam0566


Sweetie what you are confusing bitterness with is; actually directness! I have long left the bitterness behind. I actually feel compassion for you as I know what the road is ahead for you.

But you are asking questions regarding the elders and the governing body, and this is what we are trying to do, answer your questions. But of course you aren't going to like what we are saying. I have the benefit of having been a very strong participant in that religion and worked in the very areas you are questioning.

I lived with, and have known many fine elders. Let that be said. I have known individuals very high up in the organization. I do not have contempt prior to investigation! I have lived it!!!! Until you actually develop shoes to walk in, regarding personal experience with this faith, you can only have contempt.

No, on the whole, the organization just gives lip service regarding outside help. They do not really approve of 12 Step programs or treatment etc. That is; with the majority it is an unacceptable idea. Or if you do, keep it short!

Heaven forbid one has a relapse or cannot stay sober! The irony....so many of the elders themselves are alcoholics!! Because it is an allowable drug to use! Naturally, they cannot look at the splinter in their own eyes. And if one comes in humbly and tells of their addiction, often the elders will in response to their own shame, yell, or shame the individual for not being Christ like. There are exceptions to the rule, but believe me, I have heard nightmares from hundreds, and in my own experience of over 20 years sobriety.

As I said, I work in the field. You cannot imagine how many witnesses that have walked through my doors, and their horror stories. Everything from alcoholism in the family, to pedophilia. The sad part; many are from homes with elders. You can't discount the facts! You just don't know what they are.

Religion attracts the good, the worthy, the codependent, the sad, the addicted, and the liars...after all, it is a good place to hide, and a good place to shine.

I realize you will discount everything we all say. But the point is: we are saying it, and you will recall these posts. You are a babe! You are new to the whole program even if you have relatives or friends that are witnesses - it is not the same as being a member.

By posting these thoughts, I feel the spiritual need to make a living amends to God, and to my former contribution to "The Lie."

Originally posted by miriam0566
stretch the truth some more.

Stretching truth would be one thing, but at least I have a grip on it, in order to stretch it. The Watchtower (and their laughable history book) is not a stretch, but a selective choice. Who has the power of truth, when an organization cultivates a "do not read" list?

But what the Watchtower covers over is far more heinous. Tell me; do you happily participate in a ritual every year in which all the participants deny the blood of Christ? I am speaking of course about the "Memorial" where nobody feels the need to share in christ's command to take and eat --Oh yes they'll sit at your doorstep and offer to describe why they believe this, but WOW if you show up and drink the wine, you'll wreck their ritual SO PLEASE DO NOT DO that, lol...

Hmm... Would this merge with any UN ideas about merging of religions or what the world might be like after "Armageddon"? Would there be a similar ritual in the future? Perhaps all the people then would be smart enough NEVER to participate in the ritual of Jesus (before Armageddon) and NEVER to drink the wine, because all the CHOSEN ONES have gone to "Heaven".

Let us imagine that post-apocalyptic world where, let's say, TWO PERCENT of the world is left? Wouldn't you then respond to the very next bullhorn which called people to action? I bet the UN spends a lot more time thinking about the post-Armageddon world reality than the average street-level JW.

first off... the inquisition was the church torturing and killing people of different faiths.

I am talking about the spirit of inquisition, which Jesus never displayed, yet which is fully endemic within the Watchtower. It is therefore, anti-Christ.

with all due respect, GET REAL.

a person going door to door preaching about something they believe in is not the inquisitionary spirit.

I'm not talking about doorknocking being the same as "inquisition". I am discussing the inquisitonary spirit which Jesus never displayed, yet which is rampant and in fact skeletonary inside the Watchwtower.

second, where the heck is all this sexual tension you have coming from?

It comes from being raised in the Watchtower. Sure, I'm willing to admit that perhaps like some Hollywood personalities, I may need hospitalization for sex addiction, lol ...But being raised in the Watchtower, I blame thm for my illness.

Seriously though, you are telling me to "get real" and then you are insulting me about sexuality? ...What do you think is REALER than sex?

Well, Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World well before there even was anything called "Jehovah's Witnesses". He described a post apocalyptic world wherein the years were called "The Year of Our Ford" meaning the old ways had been destroyed. The world religion he proposed was based on sex and would surely be best introduced upon a worldgroup which had been indoctrinated and sexually repressed, don't you think? ...I think you have raised a very, ahem, strong point here.

wiki/Brave_new_world

But really, couldn't you also see those future-folk of global harmony participating in a jw-memorial-ritual where the 'blood of Christ' is denied, because of all the "bloodshed of the time before Ford!"? ...Do you see how the world will see it necessary, as all JWs do now, to NOT drink the wine, which Jesus passed?

Would this mean that Future Earth, actively and totally denying Christ in such ritual fashion (all the "anointed" are in heaven after Armageddon, of course), would create a certain kind of Earth? Mightn't the UN have a similar sort of picture when they gaze into the future?

Maybe the root of it all, is a planet Earth which is NOT covenanted with Jesus and the forces behind him. ...I wonder if some UN thinktank might also have deduced that? I wonder if they have a list of which world religions are most conducive to a post Armageddon government?

...Although there is a sex scandal in the UN, I don't know much about it. I get my news from Fox and who ever knocks on my front door.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Look, I don't have time to look it up, but as a kid, the elders and articles in the watchtower always discouraged outside help from a mental health professional. It's true, and no I can't show you where I saw it, but suffice it to say it was drummed into my head from the day I was born.

you are trying to warn me about this organization right? you made a claim and i looked into it. im telling you its not there. not one article that says professional help should be avoided. not one.

maybe you might have been a victim of "personal opinion" by an elder. but you cannot claim the organization backed that up.

And who made you the judge of my father?

no, never. i will never say he is good or bad. but unless your father is a robot, he has responsibility for himself and those under him.

you father did not have had a choice when he was downing mouthwash.at that point it was a disease. i acknowledge that. but what got him to that point?

accepting personal responsibility is one of the first keys to successful recovery in almost anything. in this regard i have much much more experience than you.

I cannot reason with your use of circular logic.

its not circular logic, its just logic you dont agree with.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
I realize you will discount everything we all say. But the point is: we are saying it, and you will recall these posts. You are a babe! You are new to the whole program even if you have relatives or friends that are witnesses - it is not the same as being a member.

i dont have relatives. and trust that i dont make decisions like this lightly. i understand what you are saying, but ive come to different conclusions

Originally posted by miriam0566

you are trying to warn me about this organization right? you made a claim and i looked into it. im telling you its not there. not one article that says professional help should be avoided. not one.

maybe you might have been a victim of "personal opinion" by an elder. but you cannot claim the organization backed that up.

If we were victims of personal opinion, it was every single elder in every single congregation, plus the governing body (remember, my mom wrote a letter to them regarding my dad's condition.)

Things tend to flip flop even coming down from the gov. body. Even within months of time, I have seen them completely contradict themselves on a topic. I remember as a child being taught that rape victims were to be held accountable for being raped, and if you allowed yourself to be raped, and were unrepentant of course, you would be destroyed by Jehovah at Armageddon. Then, they went to the view that maybe you weren't so bad after all if you got raped, and Jehovah might see fit to forgive you, then they shortly afterward went back to the same ol same ol Jehovah's gonna kill you bs. Now, does that sound like unity and uniformity to you?

no, never. i will never say he is good or bad. but unless your father is a robot, he has responsibility for himself and those under him.

you father did not have had a choice when he was downing mouthwash.at that point it was a disease. i acknowledge that. but what got him to that point?

accepting personal responsibility is one of the first keys to successful recovery in almost anything. in this regard i have much much more experience than you.

Every single thing I've posted from an outside source regarding alcoholism has referred to it as a disease, not just in the end stages. That[edit-your description] is not how disease works, dear. The whole process is defined as pathological. That means it is considered a disease from beginning to end, not just at some imaginary point arbitrarily chosen by you or anyone else.

And, in what realm do you have much more personal experience with than me? You know little about me, this is a pretty presumptuous statement.

its not circular logic, its just logic you dont agree with.

DEFINITION

Circular Reasoning – supporting a premise with the premise rather than a conclusion.


Circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion. To say, “You should exercise because it’s good for you” is really saying, “You should exercise because you should exercise.”

It shares much with the false authority fallacy because we accept these statements based solely on the fact that someone else claims it to be so. Often, we feel we can trust another person so much that we often accept his claims without testing the logic. This is called blind trust, and it is very dangerous. We might as well just talk in circles.

Read your posts again. All you've offered is your own opinion, save for some E-zine article, from which you extrapolated a basis for your opinion. And it has been just that; your own opinion just stated in different ways.

Your main basis for your opinion has been that you have a "friend" who is supposedly an alcoholic. What???? Explain to me why that makes you qualified to make that judgment of my dad.

I lived with the man for 23 years,again, I have more experience on this than you, just accept it.

And, have you suddenly become privy to how many emergency room trips we took because he chugged nyquil, or od'd on benadryl, or downed all his Fiorinal that he'd gotten from 3 different doctors. Were you there when he wrecked his car drunk, or when he lost his job? Were you there when the elders told him he was "disgusting, and he should "pull himself up by his own bootstraps"? The man was trying to kill himself, he was miserable and pitiful, he has been ill since before I was born, dear. You have no right to make the judgment you so casually pass off as fact.

I'm the one who had to deal with him drunk, not you. I'm the one who went to the emergency room all those times with him, not you. I'm the one who took his anger, physical abuse and mental abuse throughout all the years, not you. And, I'm the one who has any right to an opinion regarding his behavior, not you.

I'm also the one who has had to come to terms with his behavior over the years, see it for what it was and forgive him, not you.



[edit on 1-11-2008 by chickenshoes]

[edit on 1-11-2008 by chickenshoes]

[edit on 11/1/2008 by chickenshoes]

reply to post by miriam0566


I apologize for intervening on your response to chickenshoes but I feel that it is necessary to enlighten you on this response of yours:

you are trying to warn me about this organization right? you made a claim and i looked into it. im telling you its not there. not one article that says professional help should be avoided. not one.

When most of these articles dealing with addiction came up in the later 80's and early 90's the Society was trying to be open minded. Remember I lived in the hub of the organization, the U.S., not you, who lives in Spain? Some of the effects would have trickled there but nothing like the literal uproar that took place within the organization after those articles.

Those articles opened up the door for everyone to come out of the closet. Members were finally feeling safe to come out and speak about their alcoholism, or a family members. But the straw that broke the camels back was when members came forward turning families members in for pedophilia, homosexuality etc., along with alcohol abuse.

It caused a tremendous upheaval within the organization, because all of a sudden, major players were being questioned as far as activity behind their closed doors! The Society panicked!!!

All of a sudden they were losing control of the flock and all the elders were incapable of handling all the secrets that were coming out. They were so unqualified! Major rug sweeping took place to cover up those in positions of power. City Overseers, CO's, DO's and many many overseers were being caught in lies.

So the Society then gave talks at assemblies and the visits from CO's, & DO's to Kingdom Halls to literally bombast any kind of recovery help or mental health. So they came down very hard on anything to do with out side help. They could not PRINT it in the mags. as they would be totally contradicting themselves, and would look foolish. So it then became an additional un-said that they are famous for.

So their extreme switch was not recorded, but was by word of mouth being spread - infiltrating all the congregations and assemblies:

There was a covert thread that permeated everything regarding outside help and how nonspiritual and how wrong and what un-Christian behavior it was. That all a member needed was the Bible, service and the meetings with the elders. As a matter of fact: if you couldn't maintain your willpower they would blame it on; not enough study or prayer or service. They were beyond shaming!!! They at times were cruel. Many a time an elder would stand on the stage listing all the defects with; the worldly ones (alcoholism incl.) and would say, "Aren't we glad that we don't have those problems in Gods organization?"

So back into the closet everyone went - unless you rocked the boat and pointed out the articles you referred to, and then it would work its way into public reproof or df'ing. It was like the articles were never written!!

One of the many problems I had was: I knew all their secrets, and the lack of love that they so claim to exhibit. It was too unclean and too obsessed with control, with too many cover-ups, for me to believe that Jah had any association with it. I now lump JW'S with all of Christendom. In a way it is sad, because they were the most academic of all religions I have studied or observed! But being a Biblical academic does not translate to being spiritual. Their fruits, plain and simply, do not reflect it, or the spirit of Jah.

With this said; I was a member of too many congregations to count. There were exceptions to this majority. But few and far between. Hopefully, you are getting involved in one that has a little more balance and not so much control (if you do indeed need a religion). But...just because they make sense, does not make them right! They may look good, they may sound good, but...do they feel right?

[edit on 1-11-2008 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by smallpeeps

I am speaking of course about the "Memorial" where nobody feels the need to share in christ's command to take and eat --

I went to one, with my friends who were JW. It did seem strange to me. I mean if no one in the congregation is worthy, why bother having the ceremony?
I did not feel tempted to take anything off the plate and tried to avoid touching it. There is an explanation. I do not see any reason to knock them over it. Just do not go, and find a church that makes you feel comfortable.

The UN drafts tons of "proclaimations" about various subjects that do not have any real teeth. They are basically drafted by a bunch of bureaucrats who sit around literally bicker for several years about a single word or point of semantics in one of their meaningless proclaimations.

I have a hard time standing by and reading all the miss information on here by so called ex witnesses. This is the third attempt to post a comment on here as i am not a member of this site and don't really want to be asociated with the garbage on here though the Global meltdown info has been interesting and informative as well as how i personal believe Satan's earthly organization is in part the NWO. Anyway.........

Chicken shoes......sorry about your families pain, may i suggest Al-anon. My mom has gained much knowledge and support how how to fight her codependent and enabling habits caused by an addict in the family, my emotionally abusive alcoholic dad who was not a JW i might add.

Unfortunately the dysfunction has been passed down to me and i have struggled greatly latter in my adult years with binge alcoholism. Obviously i had little to do with the congregation at this time or society in general as i isolated in self destruction.

i am going to make this as brief as possible

shepherding calls by concerned elders???? Yes! At first before i realized the severity of my problems and still in denial i proudly viewed these visits as unnecessary. As my disease progressed and my mental and emotional state sank into a deep depression the ministers recognized the need for professional help. And by this time i desperately wanted help and was in full realization my dire situation.

I fist tried psychologists then went to 3 rehabs in 3 years. Was i disfellowshiped? NO! Why? Because they recognized it as an addiction and knew i was making every effort to get healed. I did not want to do what i was doing. Sometimes its bottoms and consequences that make people want to take action to get help. If i refused to acknowledge had a problem and continued my reckless and increasingly public behavior i am sure there would have been consequences. Every organization has standards and rules of conduct especially Gods..............I am happy to say i have over a year sober and working on my spirituality as addiction is a spiritual disease. I still go to the to the odd AA meeting because the understanding of a fellow addict is very powerful. I still call the Kingdom Hall home and continue to draw from the love and support of the congregation.

Now......as far as who can partake at the Lords evening Meal or Memorial celebration as it is called.

Who should partake of these Memorial emblems? Logically, only those in the new covenant—that is, those who have the hope of going to heaven—should partake of the bread and the wine. God’s holy spirit convinces such ones that they have been selected to be heavenly kings. (Romans 8:16) They are also in the Kingdom covenant with Jesus.—Luke 22:29.

What about those who have the hope of living forever in Paradise on earth? They obey Jesus’ command and attend the Lord’s Evening Meal, but they come as respectful observers, not partakers. Once a year after sundown on Nisan 14, Jehovah’s Witnesses observe the Lord’s Evening Meal. Although only a few thousand worldwide profess to have the heavenly hope, this observance is precious to all Christians. It is an occasion when all can reflect upon the superlative love of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.—John 3:16.

If you want to know what a JW believes ask an active JW

as for the end of religion
www.watchtower.org...

i cant even begin to reply to the rest of the biased misinformation on this thread nor should i waste my time. But it will be a very exiting few years to come, we will all just have to wait and see. I hope the best for all and not just becouse i am taught too Matthew 22:37-39.

if this does not get posted there ATS is a conspiracy hahaha

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by smallpeeps

 

I am speaking of course about the "Memorial" where nobody feels the need to share in christ's command to take and eat --

I went to one, with my friends who were JW. It did seem strange to me. I mean if no one in the congregation is worthy, why bother having the ceremony?
I did not feel tempted to take anything off the plate and tried to avoid touching it. There is an explanation. I do not see any reason to knock them over it. Just do not go, and find a church that makes you feel comfortable.

Well, that's a fair statement for someone who has never been a long time member of Jehovah's Witnesses.

However, you have to understand that a great many people have been very hurt by this organization's policies.

And, when you've been born into it like Smallpeeps and me, it's not as easy as saying "oh, well, let's go to another church where we're comfortable.

Let's just say, most JW's have "issues".

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
The UN drafts tons of "proclaimations" about various subjects that do not have any real teeth. They are basically drafted by a bunch of bureaucrats who sit around literally bicker for several years about a single word or point of semantics in one of their meaningless proclaimations.

An example of a meaningless proclamation by the UN is Codex. Eventually someone came up with Codex Alimentarius, to implement it.

reply to post by chickenshoes

And, when you've been born into it like Smallpeeps and me, it's not as easy as saying "oh, well, let's go to another church where we're comfortable.

You are probably right. I was lucky enough to be born into the Seventh Day Adventist religion and never felt like I had to switch. It is a little more mainstream and they try to act like they are just another conservative church.
I had good friends who were raised JW and the ended up being DS'd. I do not know where they ended up. They may have been reinstated, for all I know.
My aunt was DF'd from the SDA's and became a JW.

People can bash the witnesses all they want, but when the UN does ban religion, will you all remember who warned you? Basically when religion is banned you will have a short period of time to get on the right side before it is too late. Yes laugh now but remember these things and act while you have the chance.

Im not gonna laugh at you here, because it is important that you should know, that they speculated! They didnt say it was, because Jehovahs Witnesis do not know the time or date at which Armageddon will come, only Jehovah. So how they thought it was coming, must of been a guess. But here this, that the Un will bann all relgion including us, ( You cannont deny that the UN havent discussed the issue of religon being banned ) When it does, in the next 10 to 15 years, ( if your curious how we know that, its to do with the 144,000, some will leave to see the day of Armaggeddon Jehovahs Judgment Day, the youngest 144,000 is in there 60's) Goverments will turn Hard Against JW'S and once again persecute and put us in prison, like they did, Unusually, back in the Concerntration Camps! Look it up! ( Why did the Germans, make papers for JW'S to sign, to either give up there religon, or go concentration camps! They didnt give this option to the Jews, or any other Relgion! ) its kinda strange when you think about it! What has people got so much against JW's?

Originally posted by jmdewey60

My aunt was DF'd from the SDA's and became a JW.

Didn't see this before now.

Now that's what I call going from the frying pan and into the fire

(No offense to SDA, all I have ever met have been very kind people, to me organized religion in general is the "frying pan".)

reply to post by pureevil81

"You said "if you read a bible you would know that one false prophecy means you are not a prophet." Well you're wrong. If you will read Jonah 3:4, the prophet Jonah said: "... yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (KJV) It did not happened because of God's mercy and yet you cannot classify Jonah as a false prophet. On the other hand A FULFILLED PROPHECY IS NOT ALWAYS A GUARANTEE THAT IT CAME FROM A GOD'S PROPHET. Read Deuteronomy 13: 1-3. Think about it man.

not in america were a christian country and noone and nothing can change that. The UN is a useless antique when is the last time the UN did anything? The USA does everything in the world we stopped saddam communism and mexicans.

reply to post by tigpoppa


That's exactly why people are going to be shocked with suprized when it happens. Just like when the the fortified city of ancient Babylon fell to the Medes & Persians in ONE night without a battle.