Jehovah's Witnesses believe UN will ban Religion

I have no problem with accountability. Where there are choices - there are consequences!

But where I have a problem with the JW's is the fact that they treat just the results and do not treat the symptoms. A lot of sin in their eyes, could be solved through performance. Unfortunately dysfunction does not work that way.

You cannot treat alcoholism through just prayer and Biblical study nor going door to door. But I saw a great deal of that thinking with the people I worked with. That organization HATED 12 - Step programs because they felt the religion should be enough, and they felt everything should be contained within that organization.

They had no compassion beyond a certain point. The initial: "we will help you," as long as you change and recover quickly, they would lose patience if you didn't (the elders have no qualifications to make judgments on mental health issues - but treat everyone the same). Often the blame is attached to; not doing enough "service work."

One does real well if you abide by all the rules and don't show any shortcomings. And the shortcomings you do have - you better hide them! So then, you have an entire religion made up of secrets, because it is not at all pleasant to be totally shunned, even by dear family members.

The irony to the whole disfellowship issue is that there is very little to support this issue in the Bible. The additional irony is the FACT that there is no guarantee that - any scripture to support it was even in the original writings, as the Bible was not recorded from any original writings, but only inaccurate copies.

Every religion needs strict rules or guidelines to maintain control of the flock, the witnesses are no exception.

Miriam:

I apologize for putting you on the spot, but: I find it easy to assume that since you say you are not a JW, that you have disassociated yourself, or are disfellowshipped, and you are trying to make some sort of defense to please God and the religion, and are trying to get back in?

I just find it interesting that you always come to their defense. I also imagine that there are a few pioneers that come onto these websites to get the extra time.

That's absurd! Religion is a belief. How can anyone ban a belief and enforce it?

Maybe it would be a good thing to ban the outward practice of assembly and "missionaries" who try to force unsolicited religion...and those who start religious wars or jihads. Perhaps true religion is something that is different for everyone and can only be defined inwardly w/o intervention from others. In that case...I tell the UN to bring it on!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet


You cannot treat alcoholism through just prayer and Biblical study nor going door to door. But I saw a great deal of that thinking with the people I worked with. That organization HATED 12 - Step programs because they felt the religion should be enough, and they felt everything should be contained within that organization.

They had no compassion beyond a certain point. The initial: "we will help you," as long as you change and recover quickly, they would lose patience if you didn't (the elders have no qualifications to make judgments on mental health issues - but treat everyone the same). Often the blame is attached to; not doing enough "service work."

One does real well if you abide by all the rules and don't show any shortcomings. And the shortcomings you do have - you better hide them! So then, you have an entire religion made up of secrets, because it is not at all pleasant to be totally shunned, even by dear family members.

The irony to the whole disfellowship issue is that there is very little to support this issue in the Bible. The additional irony is the FACT that there is no guarantee that - any scripture to support it was even in the original writings, as the Bible was not recorded from any original writings, but only inaccurate copies.

Every religion needs strict rules or guidelines to maintain control of the flock, the witnesses are no exception.

Boy howdy, do I know how that old chestnut goes.

My dad went through this very thing, he was an alcoholic and hid it for many, many years, until my mom began talking to the elders and writing to the society about his problems and the havoc it was wreaking in our family.

We got several of the infamous "Shepherding calls" in which I remember a very respected, long time Elder in the congregation(who was not noted for his kindness) telling my dad that he "disgusted" him and that he should "pull himself up by his own bootstraps". Classic!

Then, after a few more insults were hurled in my dads general direction by a couple other elders, my mom spoke to the elders again because nothing in our family had changed.

Then, dun-dun-dun, my mom and I got the infamous Shepherding Call. We were counseled to forgive and forget, pretty much, and that was that.

I asked them how I was supposed to forgive when the wrongdoing was ongoing, hadn't stopped and showed no signs of stopping.

All I got was an eyeroll, and then they packed up their New World Translations and left.

Eventually, after I left home, my dad was disfellowshipped, he grew a beard, (what's up with DF'd men growing a beard??) my mom had him kicked out of the house, he was homeless for about 6 months, and then she wound up taking him back later on after he was found in front of the local grocery store, mostly incoherent and asking for her.

She was congratulated on her patience, promised that Jehovah would reward her, my dad was eventually reinstated, and they are still together, dysfunctionally ever after. My dad doesn't drink anymore, but he still depends on my poor, tiny frail mom to do everything for him. I have to wonder why the ef Jehovah would expect her to put up with this for the rest of her life at the sake of her own identity, just to prove her faithfulness. I don't think I want anything to do with a God that requires that kind of devotion.

reply to post by chickenshoes

We got several of the infamous "Shepherding calls" in which I remember a very respected, long time Elder in the congregation(who was not noted for his kindness) telling my dad that he "disgusted" him and that he should "pull himself up by his own bootstraps". Classic!

They are just not equipped to handle recovery or mental health issues and unfortunately have been given the power over people's lives. AND, so many are functioning alcoholic's themselves!

It has caused some terrible consequences. On the other hand, I have known some elders that did everything they could do within their power to be loving. But unfortunately, I have heard too much to the contrary.

I believe it to be just another religion with very dedicated folks, who believe that it is a life and death situation to leave the religion.

Really, what does God have to do with any of it? It is mankind's crutch with the pressure by leaders to stay within the flock.

On topic: Does God need the U.N. to end religion? Isn't it happening all on its own? As religious members find that they don't like the pressure and control that religion puts on them, they are finding that it is not meeting their needs, as once thought.

The witnesses could be right on some issues ( I don't doubt it) but is it truly necessary to be part of any religion to be connected to God? Is religion becoming passe?

reply to post by dgtempe

Dear neighbour, there was a comment Mark Twain made in relation to how mankind base there oppinions on hearsay without investigating the matter for themself.It's true the Scriptures state that 144 thousand people are taken to heaven(Reverlation 14:3),however the remaining people found in good standing with God remain on the earth(Ecclesiastes 1:4+Matthew 5:5),hence the expression'The meek shall inherit the earth'.I hope this is incouraging to you and wish you well (John 8:32) 14Jehovah

I`m for it all the way.
this is the only rumor that i have heard from the NWO that I agree with.

if not a ban on religion, then at least an ALL OUT
Separation of Church and State....

this world has been perverted long enough by religion

CHICKENSHOES
your mom may have scriptural grounds for separation based on willful nonsupport. When getting married, a husband assumes the responsibility of providing for his wife and children. The man who willfully fails to provide the material necessities of life “has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.” (1 Timothy 5:8) So separation is possible.
Another is extreme physical/emotional abuse. So then, if a mate physically abuses his wife, the victim may separate. (Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 1:7) “Anyone loving violence [God’s] soul certainly hates.”—Psalm 11:5.
Yes the bible views divorce and separation as last resort but it Sounds like her supporting you dad is by choice not because some one told her too. I would recommend as well she look into Al-anon for support, just because he changed his drinking habits doesn't mean has changed his thinking habits which create codependency between him and your mom. And i would be willing to bet she has some control issues that may even be directed to you in an oppressive manor. This is a product of you dads possible inadvertent emotional abuse. Every body loses in addiction and i am sorry for the pain it has caused your family,but we can recover and heal. Hard work, education from the experts self awareness, and an open mind.

If your wondering why i know a little about this stuff its because my mom went through the same thing, married to an emotionally abusive alcoholic who cheated on her bi yearly. I am happy to say i had a hand in giving her the power to kick him to the curb. He was not a JW.

Now for the ironic and perhaps predictable part, 20 years latter i became a full blown binge alcoholic. Up to that point out of great concern and scriptural obligatoion i received many "shepherding calls". Equipped with mainly bible principles they were not fully equipped to deal with my intensifying addiction and depression. After recognizing the severity of my problems they strongly recommended professional help which i pursued in the form of many visits to trained psychologists.

Thankfully since i was single there was no immediate family involved. Toward the end of my 5 year spiral into full blown addiction my follies went from closet drinker to a public spectacle and hazard. After a DUI induced accident i was yet again warned of the scriptural severity of my actions and the consequences which would be having my "membership revoked" (disfellowshipped,exspelled etc i like to add my own terms as an attempt at humor) This was my "bottom" that made me realize i had to take drastic measures to save my life in more ways than one. It was consequences on many levels that forced me to want to help myself and get help. This started the rehab years..yes 3 rehabs in three years at 60 days each. I am happy to say i now have 16 months sober and grateful for every heart beat and moment in the day. Did i ever get shown the door for a time out, time off with no pay, or another words DF'd (disfellowshipped) for being a drunk. No. Why?because i was making every effort possible to stop what i was doing.
Sometimes its only consequences that can make people want to improve as a person. What happens if there is a drunk or pedophile or womanizer in the family....is he welcome in your home? I would hope not...what happens to trouble makers who repeatedly fail to fulfill there responsibility's at your place of work and cause animosity and discord amogst staff resulting in production loss..you fire his azz. Every arrangement has guidelines and requirments...even...especialy God's
I don't normally waste my time on threads like these but out of concern for Chickenshoes and his family i was inspired to respond. If you ever want to know what a JW believes ask a JW or go to the Watchtowers *OFFICIAL* site www.watchtower.org...

maybe i should become a member of this site, what are the rules for not getting kicked out hahaha

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
But where I have a problem with the JW's is the fact that they treat just the results and do not treat the symptoms. A lot of sin in their eyes, could be solved through performance. Unfortunately dysfunction does not work that way

You cannot treat alcoholism through just prayer and Biblical study nor going door to door. But I saw a great deal of that thinking with the people I worked with. That organization HATED 12 - Step programs because they felt the religion should be enough, and they felt everything should be contained within that organization.

alcoholism i have to say is a horrible disease, but you have to admit, the only way to get past it is shear will. you can call it a twelve step program, or visiting a phycharitrist (sp?) but in the end its how much will you have to get beyond that.

i dont know if that is your personal problem with them, or someone you know, but it sounds like you are just making excuses. i mean that with all due respect. the bible is very clear about drunkenness. alot of people have overcome alcoholism, so its not impossible. the question becomes how willing is the person to align with god's standards?

They had no compassion beyond a certain point. The initial: "we will help you," as long as you change and recover quickly, they would lose patience if you didn't (the elders have no qualifications to make judgments on mental health issues - but treat everyone the same). Often the blame is attached to; not doing enough "service work."

it sounds like you are talking out of bitterness, not reason. again im not saying that to jab you. i mean it with respect to you. you seem to be jumping points, like everything comes out in a flood like someone who is frustrated.

one's mental health or orientation is rarely an excuse to sin. the apostle talked about making a new person inside. in situations where people are insane and are not aware of anything, im sure they are in god's hands. but certain mental problems today still leave the person with control. alcoholism is very difficult to control (difficult may be too easy a word). but you can still say no. using it as a crutch doesnt change the obligations god has for you to try your best.

One does real well if you abide by all the rules and don't show any shortcomings. And the shortcomings you do have - you better hide them! So then, you have an entire religion made up of secrets, because it is not at all pleasant to be totally shunned, even by dear family members.

this is the part of your argument that is fundamentally flawed. you are looking to their elders as if they were policemen ready to shun you for whatever you do wrong. 2 problems with that...

1 - elders standards come from the bible. so its not their rules, but god's

2 - i know for a fact that there is something called "reproving". its when someone commits a serious sin and is repentant (stops doing the sin)

the question becomes, are you trying not to sin because the elders might be watching? or are you trying not to sin because it displeases god?

The irony to the whole disfellowship issue is that there is very little to support this issue in the Bible. The additional irony is the FACT that there is no guarantee that - any scripture to support it was even in the original writings, as the Bible was not recorded from any original writings, but only inaccurate copies.

most of 2 timothy deals with telling timothy how to deal with shunned ones. it even gets into why they are shunned and how it protects the congregation. shunning is used when a person is violating gods law or teaching a false doctrine, and dont stop. they refuse to stop, they dont see a need to stop. THEN they get shunned.

if you want to see the consequences of not shunning just look at the church today. nothing taught from the alter is scripturally backed. the congregation itself is spiritually dead and everyone is doing their own thing. i doubt very much that is true worship

scriptures that support shunning: 2 thess 3:6,7,11; 1 cor 5:1-12; 1 tim 1:18-20; gal 5:7-9;

keeping the congregation clean: 1 cor 6:9-11

reproving: 2 thess 3:13-15;

Every religion needs strict rules or guidelines to maintain control of the flock, the witnesses are no exception.

control them to do what? Jw's dont have compulsory contributions, so its not like the watchtower or the elders are using the flock for money. of what evil benefit is it for them to encourage people to come close to god?

I apologize for putting you on the spot, but: I find it easy to assume that since you say you are not a JW, that you have disassociated yourself, or are disfellowshipped, and you are trying to make some sort of defense to please God and the religion, and are trying to get back in?

I just find it interesting that you always come to their defense. I also imagine that there are a few pioneers that come onto these websites to get the extra time.

in my travels and in my studies, i have known for a long time that the church was not god's organization. they dont regard the bible with respect because they simply dont follow it. i have a huge amount of respect for the witness because they actually care what the bible says on matters. i have found them molding their doctrine to what the bible says, not molding the bible to what their doctrine says.

despite bitter opposers, i havent found anything to say that they aren't god's organization. they are one of the few organizations that are actually following jesus' command to preach. they are the most united religion i've seen. the watchtower magazine which is studied on sundays is studied all over the world at the same time, not only that but every point is backed up with scripture.

ive never found a religion embrace the bible like the witnesses do. it is their authority.

i myself am not one, but that is for reasons im am resolving at the moment being i am a homosexual (not practicing mind you, but im being honest when i state my orientation)

in someways, i know how it feels to be alcoholic as i too have an "inclination". an elder who has been encouraging me to get baptized said to me that all humans have an inclination to sin (which is true) and that my inclination, while being slightly different, doesnt mean god loves me less or that god wouldnt accept my worship any less. the important thing is that i dont act on that inclination.

the reason i am not baptized though is because i want to be absolutely sure that i am doing all i can do to deal with my homosexuality. i will always be a sinner, but i dont want to be a hypocrite. just like how maybe an imperfect elder has left you bitter towards JW's, i dont want to be a cause for someone else's bitterness.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS



Thanks anon for your reply.

I appreciate it, however, I was raised as a jw from birth, so I know what I'm speaking of.

The elders in many cases were downright mean and cruel, and at best simply uncaring. I know this can vary from congregation to congregation due to different personalities, but come on. Shouldn't Jehovah's org. have a little more uniformity, rather than how you're treated being just luck of the draw.

And, the elders never, ever, not once, not one damn time recommended professional help. It was only after my dad (with my mom's, his doctor's, and the authorities insistence) sought professional help for his problem that he was able to stop drinking. On a side note, he was sexually abused as a young child by someone in his cong. This was known by our elders, and they still would not give the ok for professional help.

And, to Miriam:

I know you are well meaning, however I would remind you that a true alcoholic doesn't have a choice in the matter. It ceases to become a matter of will, and the biochemical makeup takes over, causing not only a psychological, but a physiological need for alcohol as well. At one point, my dad so needed a drink that he downed a liter and a half of Listerene. That, my friend, was not a choice at that point.

I also believe that sexual orientation is not a conscious choice, but that we are born being the way we are. I can no more change myself to gay than you can change yourself to straight. I'm sure you have always known what your preference was, on some level, correct? I'm not trying to tell you what to do, only you can know in your heart what you really want, but in my experience, going against who you really are winds up being a detriment to the person rather than an aid.

Oh, and you do realize that the New World Translation has been changed from the original to better suit their doctrines, don't you?

reply to post by miriam0566


First of all, I want to thank you for your complete honesty!

I am speaking from far more experience than you could possibly understand, but that is okay.

Many people such as yourself have no understanding of alcoholism. That is an unfortunate reality in society and especially with the JW'S. All that you said, is what elders say, and for the poor soul who is tagged with this disease, it is unbearable. Your explanation is actually the opposite to the truth on this subject. Not surprising!

Alcoholics need outside intervention because it is not about will!! Only, "God could and would, if he were sought." It takes a complete willingness to turn ones life and will over to God. You cannot "will" away alcoholism.

If you heard bitterness in my tone, I am sorry. But what you were actually hearing was righteous indignation. It sounds a lot like bitterness or unwarranted anger. But in actuality it is warranted. The Lie is so entrancing that it is not surprising that it blinds so many people, and hurts them! Ignorance is the backbone of all religion as it keeps the little person in line and keeps them shamed!

You spoke as an authority on a subject that you were primed to say. Yet, it is completely incorrect. You are not an authority, nor are they, but I am. Thank goodness that there is ample truth that this way of thinking is not Gods way.

In answer to the verses you quoted; it may help to educate yourself on the realities of the Bible. You have no doubt read many posts on its fallibility. A spiritual person looks beyond the fact that the Bible (even the NWT) was based on copies and never on any originals, but looks for the real truth behind the manufactured religious words.

So it is literally impossible except through conjecture, to imagine what anyone actually said, versus what Christianity deemed necessary to incorporate into scripture in order to keep the masses in line.

I realize you probably will not do so, as no religion promotes researching information that may directly challenge their doctrine. For this I am sad.

It started with Catholicism with their very life and death rigidity and a death warrant if one left, or went against its doctrines. It passed down its reasoning's to the rest of Christianity - the JW'S included. The sin is: in bringing Jah and Jesus into the picture!

There are definite choices and definite consequences. But I would rather fall into the hands of God than into the hands of man (a Proverb).

If you are new to their program and are young - then I wouldn't expect you to know anything different. I am well familiar with your road, and journey, and I wish you the best.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by MatrixProphet]

Originally posted by chickenshoes
I also believe that sexual orientation is not a conscious choice, but that we are born being the way we are. I can no more change myself to gay than you can change yourself to straight. I'm sure you have always known what your preference was, on some level, correct? I'm not trying to tell you what to do, only you can know in your heart what you really want, but in my experience, going against who you really are winds up being a detriment to the person rather than an aid.

we were all born imperfect, that doesnt mean god created us that way no does it mean that he intended us to be that way. if i was born with this orientation (which i think its more likely i got it from trauma) its still not an excuse to continue contrary to the bible.

just like an alcoholic may have an extreme inclination to liquor, doesnt mean he should embrace it.

Oh, and you do realize that the New World Translation has been changed from the original to better suit their doctrines, don't you?

yeah, i have still yet to see anything substantial from that claim.

most of my views that i have accumulated with regards to the bible are very similiar to the JW's. and i can defend them with other versions of the bible including the king james version and american standard.

if the NWT was really changed to support their doctrine then theoretically i shouldnt be able to do that

reply to post by miriam0566


Well, let me reiterate what I just stated regarding alcoholism:

"And, to Miriam:

I know you are well meaning, however I would remind you that a true alcoholic doesn't have a choice in the matter. It ceases to become a matter of will, and the biochemical makeup takes over, causing not only a psychological, but a physiological need for alcohol as well. At one point, my dad so needed a drink that he downed a liter and a half of Listerene. That, my friend, was not a choice at that point."

You did read the part about the Listerene, right? Do you really,really think that this kind of behavior points to merely an "extreme inclination"? I would consider that pathological in nature. It's not about willpower, Miriam.

As far as sexual orientation goes, I cannot speak for you and your reasons. But, I do know others who have always known they were different, and maybe they couldn't put their finger on it until they were older, but some have always known. I didn't say God made anybody any particular way, but I do think people are born that way most of the time. Whether it could be from some influence in utero or shortly after that no one really knows, but scientists are researching the idea of a gay gene.

Also, the NWT hasbeen changed to suit their doctrines. The info is out there, all you have to do is look it up.


Here's one example

and here's another

And yet another one

And I could go on for a while.

I respect and even understand to an extent your beliefs, but I was born into it, unlike you who came to it as an adult, I assume.

I guess the point is, don't just blindly accept what people tell you. Please do research on your own.

Sorry for going off topic somewhat.

Now as far as the UN thing and JW's, my personal, slightly educated opinion (at the risk of sounding a bit coo coo) is that the group started as a either a front for a faction of the New World Order, or perhaps a copycat of. There was massive symbolism from Egyptology and Enochian magic and freemasonry plastered all over their publications. The very name, Watchtower, is a major symbol from Enochian magic. My conjecture is that Russel saw an opportunity to get mass land holdings and collect money from a bunch of shills in order to start his very own New World Order of sorts, or to buy his way into the existing plan. And, imo, I don't think he actually planned to let any of the shills in on the New World thing. He was just there to reap the benefits while the money train rolled on in. The only thing he didn't count on is that he just couldn't get his membership up to snuff to put himself on a level with the actual NWO, so the religion he started has sort of morphed in its purpose over time. They are still all about money and land, but I think they may have given up on the whole NWO thing. The connection with the UN, I think is the WT ploy at sympathy, as they believe that after religion is abolish, this is when the persecution will start. This is all just my opinion I have conglomerated from the research I have done. Please take it for what it's worth, just speculation at this point.

Even at that, I still have moments in which I wonder if I should have left or not.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by chickenshoes]

[edit on 30-10-2008 by chickenshoes]

reply to post by chickenshoes


I appreciate your points!

Actually, the scriptures you listed along with so many others, were added much later to the canon. All Bibles including the NWT all come from editions that were written way after Jesus and his clan, and verses were added (and they are well documented).

This is why Mariam says she can use any Bible to make her point as all the evangelicals say the same. The truth is; there are more mistakes in the OT than there are words in the OT!

The question to any religious person - Miriam included, why would God ever sanction that? Is his word not worth something? Is he this poor of an author that he cannot get his word across without so many discrepancies? So, what if anything, did he intend the Bible to accomplish?

Please note the book from a Biblical scholar (who actually has had access to all the earliest copies, unlike most theologians), it will open your eyes:

"Misquoting of Jesus - The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why."
by Bart Ehrman.

As I said earlier, and I am glad you referenced more info: the JW'S were using NWO way ahead of most everyone else. I questioned many years later why that was so. Many of their philosophies go hand in hand with the New World Order!!

As far as going back to the religion, that is your choice. I always suggest asking for teachers to come into your life. The right ones will be placed there when you need them. But the brain washing is great and it can be very difficult to leave family and friends behind. I totally get that! :

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Many people such as yourself have no understanding of alcoholism. That is an unfortunate reality in society and especially with the JW'S. All that you said, is what elders say, and for the poor soul who is tagged with this disease, it is unbearable. Your explanation is actually the opposite to the truth on this subject. Not surprising!

if a person is ignorant about the disease, then educate them. if an elder is counseling someone to stop drinking, showing from the bible that this is not a good idea, then the person has the responsibility to take the actions necessary to accomplish that. if that means checking into rehab, then check into rehab! you cant blame the elders for holding you accountable. that is unreasonable.

Alcoholics need outside intervention because it is not about will!! Only, "God could and would, if he were sought." It takes a complete willingness to turn ones life and will over to God. You cannot "will" away alcoholism.

i did not know this until you told me. i decided to google it for more information and im glad now that i know alittle more about this.

however...

the alcoholic is not free from responsibility

It is important to state, that the recognition that drug addiction or alcoholism is a brain disease does not mean that the addict is simply a victim. Drug addiction and alcoholism begin with the voluntary act of using drugs or alcohol and addicts and alcoholics must participate in and take responsibility for their recovery. Thus, having this brain disease does not absolve the addict of responsibility for his or her behavior, but it does explain why an addict cannot simply stop using drugs using willpower alone.

taken from here... ezinearticles.com...:-Willpower-or-a-Disease-of-the-Brain?&id=154945

If you heard bitterness in my tone, I am sorry. But what you were actually hearing was righteous indignation. It sounds a lot like bitterness or unwarranted anger. But in actuality it is warranted. The Lie is so entrancing that it is not surprising that it blinds so many people, and hurts them! Ignorance is the backbone of all religion as it keeps the little person in line and keeps them shamed!

You spoke as an authority on a subject that you were primed to say. Yet, it is completely incorrect. You are not an authority, nor are they, but I am. Thank goodness that there is ample truth that this way of thinking is not Gods way.

1 cor 6:[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

this scripture is not specifically talking about alcoholics. its referring to anyone who gets drunk. so here's my question:

is it wise counsel not to get drunk, or is it just rubbish in order to control people?

if it's wise counsel, then why complain?

it may help to educate yourself on the realities of the Bible..... A spiritual person looks beyond the fact that the Bible (even the NWT) was based on copies and never on any originals, but looks for the real truth behind the manufactured religious words.

So it is literally impossible except through conjecture, to imagine what anyone actually said, versus what Christianity deemed necessary to incorporate into scripture in order to keep the masses in line.

so your saying that at some point after jesus (about 120 years or so), a group of people decided to change all the inspired sayings and destroy the originals. of course you cant prove this because you dont have any of the originals to compare them to so as to show me these changes. im sorry but your theory doesnt have much merit to it so i would hardly call it a reality

I realize you probably will not do so, as no religion promotes researching information that may directly challenge their doctrine. For this I am sad.

you are assuming much. alot of the personal research regarding the bible i've done long before i ever met a JW. i decided on my own a long time ago whether the bible should be an authority in my life. i even studied koine greek and even learned some hebrew just to compare what i was reading with whatever transcripts are available to read.

the problem with trying to convince me of something like this is that ive done my homework. so please dont label me as a sheeple.

There are definite choices and definite consequences. But I would rather fall into the hands of God than into the hands of man (a Proverb).

which is fine, its your perogative.

If you are new to their program and are young - then I wouldn't expect you to know anything different. I am well familiar with your road, and journey, and I wish you the best.

thank you?

Originally posted by chickenshoes
I know you are well meaning, however I would remind you that a true alcoholic doesn't have a choice in the matter. It ceases to become a matter of will, and the biochemical makeup takes over, causing not only a psychological, but a physiological need for alcohol as well. At one point, my dad so needed a drink that he downed a liter and a half of Listerene. That, my friend, was not a choice at that point."

You did read the part about the Listerene, right? Do you really,really think that this kind of behavior points to merely an "extreme inclination"? I would consider that pathological in nature. It's not about willpower, Miriam.

it is. because even if the person cannot stop on their own (as i have been educated on the matter (thank you btw)) they still have to make the decision to get help. at some point they have to want to stop even if they cant. you are making it sound like they have absolutely no choice in the matter.

Whether it could be from some influence in utero or shortly after that no one really knows, but scientists are researching the idea of a gay gene.

what would it matter?

if you believe in god and god (the creator of all things) says not to do something, then what does it matter if you are "wired" (as some say) to do something or not. whether i was born gay or not is inconsequential to me. the god i have chosen to follow, whom i believe created me (directly or indirectly) has the right to tell me how to live my life.

you might not agree, which is fine because god gives you that choice.

Also, the NWT hasbeen changed to suit their doctrines. The info is out there, all you have to do is look it up.

you know whats interesting? being as im just studying and am not actually baptized, im sort of a target as such for ex-JW's. NEVER has one encouraged me to continue to read the bible. whether they left because of elder issues or theological differences, ALL have tried to convince me that the NWT is rubbish and many have tried to debunk the bible in general

like i said before, if the NWT was so drastically changed, how do i not need it to defend my faith?

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
"Misquoting of Jesus - The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why."
by Bart Ehrman.

im not a fan of mr.ehrman to put it lightly. i find when i read his stuff that he is trying to disprove the inspiration of the bible the same way a trinitarian tries to prove the trinity.

it give me a headache reading how he reasons through things.

reply to post by MatrixProphet

So it is literally impossible except through conjecture, to imagine what anyone actually said, versus what Christianity deemed necessary to incorporate into scripture in order to keep the masses in line.

You say that as if it was a bad thing. People were getting out of line in a big way. There is always are going to be heretics or rebellious. There was a time lag between Jesus saying things and those sayings being written in what we know today as Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Whatever may have been the most dangerous heresy when these were written would have influenced what got included. Let's say Mark came first, then before another Gospel was written, people were running around denying whatever aspect of Jesus was not explicitly laid out in Mark. So, the next one written would have those things included to stop the deniers.
So, nothing wrong with that. You may be a little paranoid to think it was meant to control people in general. It is meant to keep people getting caught up by people telling lies about their faith.


[edit on 30-10-2008 by jmdewey60]

and so they should

reply to post by miriam0566


You know, I've said just about all I can say. I can tell you though that your responses sound very much like what I might have said about 13 or 14 years ago. Through life's experience and much research, I have come to feel the way I do today.

What I have noticed is that all religions can defend their own particular stance from the bible. This is not unique to Jehovah's Witnesses.

I would encourage you to sincerely pray to God for the truth to be shown to you. Don't take any person's word for it.


Just one last thing, does a man desperate enough to drink Listerene sound to you as if he is capable of making a sane decision, such as to check himself into rehab? (By the way, you do know that Listerene is mouthwash, right?) How is he still accountable according to you? And, does that in turn make my Mother accountable for him before God, since she is his spouse?

Here is what about.com says on the matter

And I suppose you would dismiss this article from a reputable source:

During the past 35 years, numerous studies by behavioral and social scientists have supported Jellinek’s contentions about alcoholism as a disease. The American Medical Association endorsed the concept in 1957. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease. In addition, the findings of investigators in the late 1970s led to explicit criteria for an "alcohol dependence syndrome" which are now listed in the DSM IIR, DSM IV, and the ICD manual. In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism: "Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."

www.physiciansnews.com...



Do you also believe that people who become schizophrenic chose to become that way? Or does someone who has cancer deserve to get it? Is epilepsy a choice?

Lucky you to have apparently never suffered the effects of this disease. Must be nice to sweep alcoholics under the same rug. Hope it never affects your life.

reply to post by miriam0566

so your saying that at some point after jesus (about 120 years or so), a group of people decided to change all the inspired sayings and destroy the originals. of course you cant prove this because you dont have any of the originals to compare them to so as to show me these changes. im sorry but your theory doesnt have much merit to it so i would hardly call it a reality

Yet, it is.

It explains why all Christians cannot agree on accurate truth and why all believe that "they" have it. An evangelical is just as convinced that they are right, as you feel you are. Too much control, so little open mindedness.

All religion is shame based and are riddled with toxic shame. All use; tactics of shame (you can never be good enough, you can always do better), codependency, and performance. Religion attracts those who are very shame based and need the structure to maintain the illusion of righteousness and to keep boundaries strong (because they cannot do it on their own for long). Using the leaders to hold one accountable rather than standing on ones own two feet. Fear is an ultimate strategy technique to keep sheep in line, but it is not a healthy one.

If a person cannot maintain a healthy conscience before God, but need to be told that they will get in trouble for going to an R rated movie, then what is the healthy motivation? FEAR of being reproved? Or fear of really going against a Godly conscience?

The problem is; you can never be good enough!!

There are a lot of un-saids in these fundamentalist religions. If you haven't seen it yet, give it time. There is the unstated; yet drive, to strive for perfection, yet you are never able to attain it. The religion alone, will shame you! It sets you up to fail.

Bart Ehrman makes complete sense in most of what he has written. It is a: take what you want and leave the rest - situation. He has become an agnostic whereas he has not influenced me in the least...I am a firm believer in Jah and all of heavenly congress. I read many other authors as well, and the new insight will over-run dogma of every religion.

The burden of proof is actually with anyone who disagrees with him, as there are simple truths - facts, that cannot be overlooked. You are incorrect if you think that there were only just a few copies in the second century and that the likelihood of there being less mistakes than there are, is just fantasy.

Originally posted by Aggie Man
That's absurd! Religion is a belief. How can anyone ban a belief and enforce it?

China does a pretty good job of it. Ask them. (if you can hear the answer over the screams of the Christians who are tortured for their faith).

So do the Islamic countries that don't allow the bible and other Christian materials in.

It definately CAN be done.