The truth about Islam

SomewhereinBetween~

I think I have you figured out. Post the most incoherent, idiotic post possible, knowing that I probably won't waste my time responding, then claim victory.

Well it worked. You're either retarded or you're on crack. I leave it to my fellow posters to agree or disagree.

wow
I have never seen such a messy tangle of propaganda. You say you are searching for the truth. It seems you only want to prove that Islam is evil. It is obvious that there are many extremists who use Islam as an excuse to further thier own means. That does not mean that they are good muslims. An unbeliever (kafr) is one who does not believe in God. Christians and Jews are not considered unbelievers. The only reason God deals harshly with them in the Quran is because they have deviated from the path that was prescribed to them.
The main basis you provided to show that Islam is evil is from the Quran. You seem to have taken a lot out of context, and misquoted as well:

(2,190-193)
And fight in God's cause those who fight you, and do not transgress, surely God does not love transgressors. And kill them wherever you comeupon them and expel them from where they expelled you, as persecuting people to sway from God's religion is worse than killing. But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you, then kill them, this is the recompense of unbelievers. But if they desist from unbelief then most surely God is All Forgiving, Most Merciful

(4,101)
And whenever you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you shorten your prayers, if you fear that unbelievers may attack you, surely the unbelievers are to you an evident enemy

(9,5)
The surah is about a treaty that the Muslims made with the Meccan's, which allowed them to perform pilgrimage in Mecca without being persecuted. The meccans broke the treaty and killed some Muslims. Still, God commanded that the muslims must wait till the time of the treaty is over before retaliating. Now I quote the line again:
"Then when the inviolable months have drawn away, kill the unbelievers wherever you find them and sieze them and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and establish prayer and pay alms, then let them go their way. God is All forgiving, All merciful"
You ought to read the whole surah before quoting one line out of context

(9,13-14)
Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and conspired to expel the Messanger, and were the first to transgress against you? Are you afraid of them? If you are believers, God is the One whom you should be afraid of. Fight them! God will chastise them with your hands and bring degradation upon them and make you victorious over them, and bring healing to the chests of the believers

As you can see, nowhere in the Quran does God command senseless killing of innocents. Most of the quotes you supplied have been doctored in some way, something left out, or taken out of context.
It will be so nice if we could all practise a little tolerance, instead of blaming each other's religions as a reason for today's problems

Some may say Islam is evil
it is just Incompatible with freedom equality and liberty we have here in the west. Its just a ‎preference ‎
The standard for what is and is not a senseless killing is a little to flimsy and Islam divine ‎right to spread until only Mohammed�s Allah is worship a little to firm‎

There are no misquotes, or doctored quotes, or quotes taken out of context. Only varying interpretations that might change the style but do little to change the substance. If you had read my original post you would have seen this. The Qur'an I quote is located online here, though I quoted directly from my own personal copy.

Amazing that you would call my analysis of Islam "propaganda", when it's the jihadists who, for no less than 1400 years, have seen in the Qur'an the exact same thing I do, the same thing any logical, objective person would see by simply reading and understanding it, as well as the hadith, which eradicates any possibility that the jihadists are twisting God's word around to fullfill their bloodlust.

Muhammad himself had a bloodlust, and Islam is the result of that. Everything begins with him, and we have him on record, from authoritative Muslim sources, as being a mass murderer, a robber/thief, a rapist, and a pedophile. His followers have committed the most heinous crimes against humanity in history, much, much worse than Christianity, far worse than Communism. Their crimes make the halocaust look like a trip to Disneyland, although Islam played a part in the halocaust too. And you have never heard about them for the same reason the media and government figures are falling over themselves trying to say there is nothing wrong with Islam.

And yes, we may judge Muhammad and his Qur'an by today's standards because according to Allah Himself his commandments and the example of the prophet are for mankind to obey and follow for ALL TIME, and the true Muslim knows this.

I doubt you've actually read any of this, besides selective verses, and by the way, most/all of the verses you quote above were not quoted by me anywhere in this topic, so once again, no offense, you're out of your league. I've been studying the Qur'an, the hadith, the sira, and Islamic law for over 6 months now.

That's about 6 months longer than most of the people who tell me I'm full of isht.

By the way, if you're not willing to take it from a Westerner's point of view, why not take it from former Muslims who've left Islam largely because of what I've been saying here:

www.secularislam.org...

To really drive the point home, read Ibn Warraq (secularislam's founder)'s Statement on 9-11. I could've written it myself.

You would do much better to impartially search answers and the truth than say people are full of #. You've been studying the Quran for 6 months now? Congratulations. I have studied it most of my life. All the verses I quoted are ones that you used in your first post. I may have added the verse previous and the verse after that verse, so that the proper meaning is understood.
You talk about Muhammad being a mass murderer, a robber/thief, a rapist, and a pedophile. From what "authoritative muslim sources" is this? The battles he participated in were to protect his beliefs. Everyone who fights in a war is a mass murderer then?
We most certainly can judge the Quran and Muhammads teachings with todays standards. Why shouldn't we? There is nothing wrong with them.
Yes, Muslims try to spread the word of God to the whole world. Isn't this the same thing that Christians attempted (and succeeded in) and are still doing? What is wrong with that. People who kill before trying to teach Islam are not doing it for Islam. They are doing it for themselves. Islam is very tolerant of other religions. The non-muslims in countries that were ruled by the muslims were never forced to convert.
KAOSKTRL, you say that the standard for what is and is not senseless killing is too flimsy. "here in the west" there is the death penalty. Who is to say that is not also senseless killing?

Babar, reasoning with Ibn is pointless. He is set in his idea, and will not change.

If you click on find posts for Ibn, every single thread he has created or participated in has to do with how awful Islam is.

He has not participated in anything else.

So when you try to prove him wrong, he just ignores it, calls you ignorant, and then repeats himself.

Just let him run his course.

The authoratative Muslim sources are the Qur'an, the hadiths Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, as well as the sira Sirat Rasul Allah. Bukhari tells of the pedophilia:

[Sahih al Bukhari 7:62:64] Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Muslim tells of the rapes:

[Sahih Muslim 008.3371]Chapter 22: AL AZL (INCOMPLETE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE): COITUS INTERRUPTUS

Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Qur'an 004.024 is Muhammad's justification for rape, by the way.

Mass murder, among other places, can be found in Surat Rasul Allah, where we learn that Muhammad laid seige to the Banu Qurayza Jews for 25 days, and, after they surrendered unconditionally, had the adult males beheaded and sold the women and children into slavery. The women not before they were raped, by the way.

Your understanding of Muhammad is woefully inept. He did not act out of self defense. He could have moved to Medina and lived the rest of his life in peace. He attacked the Meccans, over and over and over again, on sacred months of truce no less ([002.217]), and stole their riches. Did he kill Abu Afak, the elderly poet, out of self defense? Or did he have him killed because he mocked him in verse? What about Asma Bint Marwan, another poet with 5 children who Muhammad had murdered?

Muhammad was not just a bedouin, he was a morally corrupt bedouin, and that's saying something. I am troubled by the thought that you find pedophilia and rape to be actions one would want to emulate.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

Other fun traditions of Muhammad:

[Bukhari 007.071.590]
Narrated Anas:

The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron.

[Sirat Rasul Allah]:
"Then he composed amatory verses of an insulting nature about the Muslim women. The apostle said - according to what Abdullah Burda told me, - "Who will rid me of Ibnu'l-Ashraf?" Maslama said, "I will deal with him for you, O apostle of God, I will kill him." He said, "Do so if you can." So Maslama returned and waited for three days without food or drink, apart from what was absolutely necessary. When the apostle was told of this he summoned him and asked him why he had given up eating and drinking. He replied that he had given him an undertaking and he did not know whether he could fulfill it. The apostle said, "All that is incumbent upon you is that you should try." He said, "O apostle of god, we shall have to tell lies." He answered, "Say what you like, for you are free in the matter."

This is verified by Bukhari 005.059.369

Sirat Rasul Allah p369
The apostle said, 'Kill any Jew that falls into your power.' Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Mas`ud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.' He said that this was the beginning of Huwayyisa's acceptance of Islam. The other replied, 'By God, if Muhammad had ordered you to kill me would you have killed me?' He said, 'Yes, by God, had he ordered me to cut off your head I would have done so.' He exclaimed, 'By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvellous!' and he became a Muslim.

I was told this story by a client of B. Haritha from the daughter of Muhayyisa from Muhayyisa himself.

This is verified by Sunan Abu Dawud 019.2996, considered one of the 6 sound (sahih) hadiths.

Also, an edit for the post previous to this one, Muhammad is absolved of the crime of wiping out the Banu Qurayza Jews by the following revelation:

[033.026-27] And those of the people of the Scripture who backed them (the disbelievers) All�h brought them down from their forts and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) a group (of them) you killed, and a group (of them) you made captives. And He caused you to inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden (before). And All�h is Able to do all things.

Do not defend or apologize such barbarity.

There is no "Surat Rasul Allah"
Quran (4,23-24) deals with who muslims are and are not allowed to marry. There is nothing about rape in them
(2,217) Tells that in the holy months only if you are persecuted and attacked first, you may fight. There is nothing about Muhammad attacking meccans and stealing their riches.
I do not have book of Hadith with me right now, and I am hesitant to trust the links you provided, considering that your knowledge of the Quran seems to be so inadequete. If you wish to learn something about Islam, why not study from those sites endorsed by muslims?

Originally posted by cstyle226
If you click on find posts for Ibn, every single thread he has created or participated in has to do with how awful Islam is. He has not participated in anything else.

Is that the only reason why you disagree with his point of view, or did you actually give this thought?

So when you try to prove him wrong, he just ignores it, calls you ignorant, and then repeats himself.

In all objectivity, maybe you can give this another shot? I have not seen any posts that proved him wrong yet, maybe you can share your wisdom with us?

Originally posted by babar
There is no "Surat Rasul Allah"
Quran (4,23-24) deals with who muslims are and are not allowed to marry. There is nothing about rape in them
(2,217) Tells that in the holy months only if you are persecuted and attacked first, you may fight. There is nothing about Muhammad attacking meccans and stealing their riches.

I do not have book of Hadith with me right now, and I am hesitant to trust the links you provided, considering that your knowledge of the Quran seems to be so inadequete. If you wish to learn something about Islam, why not study from those sites endorsed by muslims?

Sites "endorsed" by Muslims for Westerners? You've got to be kidding me. Why don't I just buy the Idiot's Guide to Islam and the Koran? Everything will be sunny and happy then!

The Life of Muhammad is an abridgement of Sirat Rasul Allah. It's two authors, Ibn Ishaq, and Ibn Hisham, are Muslims. The hadith are most certainly endorsed by Muslims. You cannot practice Islam without consulting both the Qur'an and the hadith. Trust the links or not; they are authentic--Sahih al-Bukhari was translated by the same Muslim who translated my copy of the Qur'an. And my knowledge of the Qur'an is exceptional, thank you.

I'll say it again: I am not against Muslims. My hope is that some day Muslims will liberate themselves from their closed-minded, supressing ideology. What I am here to do is answer the question all of us have been trying to answer since 9-11 (or before): Why do they want to kill us?

The answer is Allah commands them to. Period. Before I leave for the day, I give you this: it's a quote from bin Laden's letter to America, with an accompanying verse from the Qur'an, proving rather conclusively that jihadists have a divine mandate to kill us:

'As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you (America) to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam...the religion of Jih�d in the way of All�h so that All�h's Word and religion reign Supreme.'

Now, compare Qur'an [002.193]:

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with All�h) and (all and every kind of) worship is for All�h (alone).

Again, this is the information on the interpretters of the Qur'an I use:

Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur'�n In the English Language by Dr Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hal�l� and Dr Muhammad Muhsin Kh�n of the Islamic University in Medina, Saudi Arabia.

Muhammad Muhsin Kh�n is also the tranlator of Sahih al-Bukhari and there is no reason to doubt the authenticity of his translations, nor have I seen anyone call his interpretations into question.

I find it difficult to believe that you've studied the Qur'an your "entire life" and yet are so unaware of the hadith. If all you've studied is the Qur'an, then unfortunately you've been wasting your time.




[edit on 12-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

Okay, folks. things are getting out of hand, here.

Discussion is one thing but I'm starting to see personal attacks and baiting and it's really not appropriate.

Please keep it civil or the thread will be closed down.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by cstyle226
If you click on find posts for Ibn, every single thread he has created or participated in has to do with how awful Islam is. He has not participated in anything else.

Is that the only reason why you disagree with his point of view, or did you actually give this thought?

So when you try to prove him wrong, he just ignores it, calls you ignorant, and then repeats himself.

In all objectivity, maybe you can give this another shot? I have not seen any posts that proved him wrong yet, maybe you can share your wisdom with us?

People think they desrve special dispensation because islam is popular and should be protected from critizim because its called a religion .Its all very PC and idiotic if you join or are born into a hate group with vile intentions you get to be rediculed.and you deserve it.
All muslims and MAs cant do is deny deflect degrad and finally call you names and quit .

Those who want to know for sure, one way or the other must then study and then decide whether they can remain quite

This is getting too much. You go on pretending to be noble, searching for the truth and saving humanity from that "horrible" Islam, while all you are doing is venting illogical hatred of a religion which you pretend to know inside out, but you can't even quote the Quran properly. The reason I ask you to study your quran and hadith from a site endorsed by muslims is that if it is by some other group, you can hardly expect them to see Islam in a proper light. Wouldn't your arguement be much more persuasive if you used an ISLAMIC site on islam?
By the way, you had said "Surat Rasul Allah", not Sirat Rasul Allah, which caused the confusion. You still have not responded to the correct versions of the quotes I supplied. You have again supplied a Quranic verse out of context (2,193). Why don't you read the whole surah? I already gave you the explaination, but you seem to have conveniently ignored it.
I did not say I was unaware of the hadith. I just don't happen to have a copy of it with me right now, and am unwilling to read a translation provided by a site that may very well be trying to pervert the truth.
Who said Islam is an evil religion? When was this proved? Usama wants America finished. Since when does Usama voice the entire muslim population, or even speak for Islam itself? Where has it been proved Islam has vile intentions? I have not been deflecting or degrading anything, and certainly not called anyone names. I have provided some very valid arguements

Originally posted by babar
This is getting too much. You go on pretending to be noble, searching for the truth and saving humanity from that "horrible" Islam, while all you are doing is venting illogical hatred of a religion which you pretend to know inside out, but you can't even quote the Quran properly. The reason I ask you to study your quran and hadith from a site endorsed by muslims is that if it is by some other group, you can hardly expect them to see Islam in a proper light. Wouldn't your arguement be much more persuasive if you used an ISLAMIC site on islam?

By the way, you had said "Surat Rasul Allah", not Sirat Rasul Allah, which caused the confusion. You still have not responded to the correct versions of the quotes I supplied. You have again supplied a Quranic verse out of context (2,193). Why don't you read the whole surah? I already gave you the explaination, but you seem to have conveniently ignored it.
I did not say I was unaware of the hadith. I just don't happen to have a copy of it with me right now, and am unwilling to read a translation provided by a site that may very well be trying to pervert the truth.
Who said Islam is an evil religion? When was this proved? Usama wants America finished. Since when does Usama voice the entire muslim population, or even speak for Islam itself? Where has it been proved Islam has vile intentions? I have not been deflecting or degrading anything, and certainly not called anyone names. I have provided some very valid arguements

Why do you force me to repeat myself? There are 11 pages worth of links and sources on this topic that more than prove my point. The proof is the combination of A> Islamic scripture, combined with B> the words of the jihadists and C> the actions of the jihadists. Add that to D> 1400 years of Islamic history, and you see there's a major problem here. Muhammad was a bloodthirsty tyrant. This is not disputable. His followers were criminals. Islam was spread by the sword. Non-Muslims were systematically wiped out in Arabia. Asia Minor. India. North Africa. Eastern Europe. Jihad until Islam reigns supreme. What would it take for you to see this? How much more death and destruction would it take before some of you wake up?

The links to the Qur'an is an Islamic site.

www.ummah.net...

The translation of the hadith comes from the University of Southern California.

www.usc.edu...

Both completely pro-Islamic sites.

The links with excerpts from SIRAT Rasul Allah are the same as what's in the book. I would know--I own it. It's the earliest known biography of the Prophet Muhammad. And it is riddled with bloody attrocity.

Unbelievable.

Obviously the pedals broke on your generator twenty or thirty years ago, why dont you blow the dust off your tv or go down and buy a newspaper, muslims arent happy unless they are killing someone or destroying something! When its not convienient to blame America for all their problems its always someone elses fault, never anything they brought onto themselfs.
The best way to hide the truth is to mix it with a lie, take your terrorist guide, cut and paste some scriptures from the holy bible, NOW you can call yourself a religion, Murder Inocent People, And Get A Tax Break. Plus you can feel much better after you read the part that tells you to execute your own women and children then flip over to the pages you pasted in from the holy bible and recharge you concious. Oh I forgot you dont have one, sorry, there I go pointing fingers again!! I should say justify your action!
Hell they cant even have a funeral without killing each other!
WAKE UP!! You think if America packs up and walks out that SPRING FLOWERS are going to Sprout up across the Mid East and Peace will Blanket The Region THAT WOULD BE (repeat after me) > STUPID

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Iwunder]

[edit on 12-11-2004 by Iwunder]

I guess vile would be a POV.
I happen to prefer the way we do things Here in the USA
Muslim believe they have the right to bring allahs laws to the world I disagree
I dont like it . I beleive shariah law is backward harsh and reprehensable learn ablout it a decide for your self . learn about dhimmitude see if that is something you want for your grandchildren and america
Any one who wants to read the Cow sura 2 can read it in its entirety here .
Please read it as many times as you need to until you understand it read the entire Quran all the time every day
www.road-to-heaven.com...

I think Islam must be placed within the larger context of true or false. Not just since that religion appeared on the face of the Earth, but what is unchangeable for thousands of years for ever. And like Islam, all other faiths should be evaluated. If we take them apart, we find pitiful prejudice mixed with great insights.

In the whole, the Quran strikes me as an advertisement. Every five or ten sentences there is a "praise to Allah, unlike no one". It is an explosive work. It is made to capture minds and enlist them for a purpose. It is radical because it promises a direct relationship with God.

It looks made by a transcendent power, tailored for the human weak spots. Imagine the poor Mohammad under the telepathic daze of the angel Gabriel, slowly realizing the power of what was being given. Like a monkey with an atomic bomb.

Islam does not offer a realtionship with allah it requires fear Submission and obedience ‎allah is not knowable