The truth about Islam

I apologize to JAK for saying he came to a kneejerk reaction to IBN post and threw himself onto to a funeral pyre of islamic defence.
I confused him with poster paperclip.Who had infuriated me when read some of his stuff and it clouded my reason temporarly
Paperclip is wirey fellow consicuoly avioding these threads.
My bad

It is always interesting to watch the followers of the big three different faiths proclaim that theirs is the only just, righteous and correct path, as they go about demonizing the others as being false, ungodly, pagan and barbarous. And their proof? Their scriptures proclaim so. Of note in this thread is the decidedly warped conviction that the Christian faith of today is not representative of the God from which it was given rise, and to whom it purports to be the eternal and universal judge and only God.

The one God ideology arose from a decided belief to move away from a polytheistic understanding. The Jews take credit for that monotheistic conviction and hold fast to the ideal that they were, are and will be judged the people to whom the gentiles will be second, thereby elevating themselves above all others. Despite the fervour, the scriptures they have provided for the world show a continued pagan relationship throughout that history, bound for a hellacious end to mankind.

The God of their father Abraham, is also the God of the prophet Muhammed, and the God of Jesus Christ. Yet far too few understand the hierarchy or the reasons behind the establishment of each. Monotheisim grew out of a desire to divorce from the powerful people of the day practicing polytheism, thereby proclaiming Judaism the epitome of righteousness. Not to be outdone, a later force declared Christianity and the end to pagan rituals as previously practiced, and it to be the epitome of righteousness, all the while creating its own pagan practices. Still later, Muhammedans decreed they were the last and the utmost. Still later and not to be outdone, the Evangelicals came along slashing and hacking away at the ritualistic pagan doctrines of the Catholic faith from which they are born, and sees itself as the only true divine order. Every one of them, jockeying for top spot in the high heavens.

When the argument boils down to the one God issue, the words become twisted and convoluted. The notion proffered that Christ is a messiah of peace and therefore bears little resemblance to the vengeful and murdering God of Abraham and Muhammed is clearly misguided, for they obviously have not read Matthew chapters 24 and 25, or revelations.

In the name of Yahweh, the Jews expect he will vanquish all gentiles. In the name of Muhammed, the Muslims expect Allah will vanquish all infidels. In the name of Christianity, Jesus will vanquish all non-Christians. Each religion despite their words of peace send out their armies to slaughter the other, their priests to convert all others, and their followers to perpetuate the hate against the other.

Not one person of any of these religions who support such hate, rancour, division and annihilation deserves a place in Heaven.

What's really interesting is when people who have no clue about a certain religion start spouting off psuedo-facts that have no basis in actual truth.

Islam is nothing like Christianity; not the same god.

And I'm neither a Christian or a Jew. Just a guy who wondered why Muslims want to kill me and bothered to make an effort to find out.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
What's really interesting is when people who have no clue about a certain religion start spouting off psuedo-facts that have no basis in actual truth.

Is that so? And you are the divine authority I suppose.

Islam is nothing like Christianity; not the same god.

Oh? And whose God does Islam represent if not that of the son of Abraham, the son they in fact claim to be the chosen above Issac? Pray tell, if not the same God, then do you offer that they deify two Gods, that of one you do not know, and that of Christ's?

And I'm neither a Christian or a Jew. Just a guy who wondered why Muslims want to kill me and bothered to make an effort to find out.

Perhaps you should first ask yourself why you wish to kill them. You see, you and they come at it from one angle only, that is, it is you or them. The problem is, that as much as you write about their hatred for you, you inspire the same amount of hatred for them and vice versa, and until the day comes when you and they can sit across the table and rationally discuss the ideology of each other, whereby you both say fine, leave it to the divine master to decide who goes to hell and who goes to Heaven, you both lose. You and the like Islamist fanatic, both hate each other with a passion, and wil settle for nothing but the victory of the one.

Gods, not yours or theirs, is the defining word, nor is there a prize of a day at the ultimate Heavenly spa for the most recruits you each chalk up. When will your zealousness and fanaticism recognise this?

So, yes, you do worship the same God, and I am sure he has much to say to both of you before he opens the chambers to the fires of hell.

[edit on 11/7/04 by SomewhereinBetween]

[edit on 11/7/04 by SomewhereinBetween]

[005.051] O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliy�' (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliy�' of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliy�'), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, All�h guides not those people who are Z�lim�n (unjust).

If they all worship the same god (Allah), then why does Allah hate Jews and Christians? Why does he command Muslims to kill them? Would Allah say that Jews are descended from apes and pigs if they really were worshipping him?

Also, Christians believe Christ is the Son of God. Muslims believe Christ was merely a righteous man. Allah is not the son of anyone, nor does he have any sons or daughters. This is a basic tenate of Islam. So too is the divinity of Christ in Christianity.

Read the Bible and compare it with the Qur'an. This is not the same god we're talking about. Did Muhammad steal many stories and prophets from Judeo-Christianity? Yes. But the differences in the personalities of the god described in the three religions are like night and day.

And where did I say I wanted to kill all Muslims? Please provide the quote. I do not want to kill them all. In fact, after we clean up in Afghanistan and Iraq I think we should pull our troops out of the region, seal our borders and develope alternate sources of energy. We should only do business with free nations.

My goal here is to force the rest of us to see Islam for what it is: a violent, bloody cult created by a warrior to justify his warmongering. They will continue to kill us as long as we slap "peaceful" Muslims on the back and tell them we know Islam is really a religion of peace. That the terrorists aren't really Muslims. Islam will never get its act together if we assure them nothing is wrong.

In fact we're inviting them to kill us. And if you ever bothered to learn about Islam, there is no way to objectively come to any other conclusion than the conclusion I've reached.

It's overwhelming and incontrovertible.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL
I apologize to JAK for saying he came to a kneejerk reaction to IBN post and threw himself onto to a funeral pyre of islamic defence.
I confused him with poster paperclip.Who had infuriated me when read some of his stuff and it clouded my reason temporarly
Paperclip is wirey fellow consicuoly avioding these threads.
My bad

KAOSKTRL

Thank you for your apology, for the retraction of your claim and the public manner in which you did so. It was a courteous act and one that is greatly appreciated.

Please allow me in turn to apologise myself for the tone of the U2U I initially sent addressing these matters. I must admit, to my shame, that I held little hope for a reply and am pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong.

Sincerely yours,

Jack.


Ibn Iblis

Though we may not see eye-to-eye on this matter, I do apologise for any disruption to your thread.

Jack

Accepted.

I also apologize for being an arrogant prick.

i am not religious at all, i am atheist and i am european. but i think the western(civilized) world should stand united against the islamic threat. may it be terrorists, crazy dictators or suppresors of women(i could go on) there shalt be no place for them on this world and at this time.

i will never forget the cold killing of the 13 innocent nepalese workers in iraq. this event changed my views of islamic people forever.

If you've seen any or all of the beheadings you also see what I'm talking about.

How can they slice off an innocent man's head, after he's plead for his life, all the while screaming Allahu Akbar!!! (God is Greatest!!!)?

It takes a signigicant disregard for human life to be able to carry out such cold, calculated acts. Where does it come from?

It comes from God and His messenger. First, Allah, in multiple verses, expresses His disgust for unbelievers. Descendents of apes and pigs. The vilest of beasts in Allah's sight.

And have you read the descriptions of the torments of Hell? Oy. Garments made of fire. Pouring boiling water down their throats and over their heads. Hooked iron rods. Chains. It's pretty graphic. Allah has almost an obsession with hell it seems. Most of us were created specifically so that Allah can watch us burn, since according to the Qur'an mankind has absolutely no free will.

So not only does god hate the unbelievers, he wants Muslims to expedite their arrival into hell by killing them. I've posted the verses. Kill them wherever you find them.

Then there's Muhammad, who on several occasions had the heads of his enemies thrown at his feet and praised God for it. He once commanded his followers to kill any Jew that falls into their power. This is called "enlightened path" (sunna) in Islam.

The self-loathers, who hate America and Western civilization, will try to tell us it's globalism, capitalism and imperialism that's to blame for why Muslims are killing us. But make no mistake: these are but convenient excuses for acts of barbarity that would have taken place anyway.

As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you (America) to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam...the religion of Jih�d in the way of All�h so that All�h's Word and religion reign Supreme.~Osama bin Laden

Know Islam and you will know your enemy.

Allah resides in hell to torture disbelievers .
I did not find allah in paradise In my reading

If I were a Christian, and I knew what I know about Islam, there is no doubt I would think that Allah is really the Devil trying to fool mankind into believing he is God.

I almost thought that anyway, until I remembered I don't believe in the devil.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Tamahu]

What's the point of this thread?

You two are very arrogant. Using 'selective' verses to prove your 'point' that the Qu'ran is not the most peacefull of faiths, is, well, quite nice; but, when you are trying to insinuate that all Muslims are visceral un-civilized creatures - a notion that reeks in all your posts - and driven by a need to fullfill the word of a Allah, you got to far.

You have excluded the peacefull verses from the Qu'ran, as you have excluded the fact that YAWEH is just as violent as the Islamic God ALLAH, who are the one and same diety. Just as Christians insinuate that thier Lord is Yaweh, Muslims say thier God, Allah, is Yaweh.

You have forgotten that the Caliphs after Muhhamed, when raided towns, cites, etc, would leave the Jews and Christians to follow thier respected faiths; you have not given us 'empiral' date to conclude that Islam has reeked 'more' havoc than any other faith in the world -- there are over 12000.

You have also taken the Hadith as justification of these acts; the Hadiths, such as the Ahl al-Bid'ah, which were not used by many sects, and used by others to serve thier own sociopolitical ends. The Hadiths were not written until 2 centuries after the death of Muhammad; these are not 'exact' qoutes from Muhhamed himself -- another fact you seemed to have overlooked.

Now you two have just decided to bash Allah in a child like manner disregarding the 'fact' that many muslims cruise these sites.

Have some repsect.

Deep


[edit on 8-11-2004 by ZeroDeep]

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
If you've seen any or all of the beheadings you also see what I'm talking about. How can they slice off an innocent man's head, after he's plead for his life, all the while screaming Allahu Akbar!!! (God is Greatest!!!)?
It takes a signigicant disregard for human life to be able to carry out such cold, calculated acts. Where does it come from?

It's been happening for a very long time innocent head.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
If you've seen any or all of the beheadings you also see what I'm talking about.

How can they slice off an innocent man's head, after he's plead for his life, all the while screaming Allahu Akbar!!! (God is Greatest!!!)?

It takes a signigicant disregard for human life to be able to carry out such cold, calculated acts. Where does it come from?

It is sad, but alas, it is the truth. Yes it does take a cold detached viewpoint to be able to carry out such brutal actions. The only way these people can justify what they are doing, is by justifying that their religion permits them to do so.

From a humane point of view, they are just the same as every other human, and thus should be subjucted to guilt to their conscious actions. However, I am constantly surprised by their detachments to their actions. The only way they can justify such actions is by putting their faith first.

However, one shouldn't view the entire muslim populations as enemies of the west. There are moderate people with moderate ambitions. There are those who want to see their families succeed, thrive for secure environments, are compassionate, loving and charitable.

It is only those who seek a fundementalist, radical point of view (ala wahabi) and take the Q'uran literally who become so. Their religion does advocate to be militant. It is not the 'turn the other cheek' type morals as those found in christianity.

What starts as a alternative viewpoint, with liberating theology and a freedom from oppression emphasis, grows and becomes a strict theosophy of adherance, with no alternate viewpoint to be tolerated. And at this point, fanaticism starts.

Yes, if everybody followed religions' rules, there wouldn't be anybody LEFT physically ALIVE.

But, fortunately or unfortunately, enough souls DON'T LISTEN that there are still a few decent human beings ... rattling around who don't want to harm anybody else, just get along.

I guess that's why Jesus said: There are sheep and goats, wheat and tares, wolves and lambs.

Experience polarizes people into talking nice but taking everything versus exercising mercy and kindness and keeping one's mouth shut.

All I know is that life is like a game of chess.
There are two side you can take, and all the pieces go back in the box at the end of the game.

The sad thing is, humans have this desire to always 'win' and 'conquer' and 'fight' to get what they want and this circle has been repeated for 1000s of years. (like a game of chess being played over and over) Each time, the difference is that the combatants have a different guise.

Islam may or may not be the biggest threat known to mankind. If it is, what am I going to really do about it? Crush kill and destroy the them? That would be really ironic..

The only true admirable people that I know are the so called 'sheep' or the ones that are like the 'lambs being led to the slaugter'. The people that live by the rules of 'doing unto others as they would do to themselves'. These are people that would rather try to save a life than take it. They are a minority these days unfortunately

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
If I were a Christian, and I knew what I know about Islam, there is no doubt I would think that Allah is really the Devil trying to fool mankind into believing he is God.

I almost thought that anyway, until I remembered I don't believe in the devil.

Then why is your avatar "Ibn Iblis?" It means "Son of Satan" in Arabic.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
If they all worship the same god (Allah), then why does Allah hate Jews and Christians? Why does he command Muslims to kill them? Would Allah say that Jews are descended from apes and pigs if they really were worshipping him?

Not an answer, since you have evaded the obvious connection to Abraham. However I am obliging if nothing else, and for the very same reason that I have stated that the God of Issac the son of Abraham expects to vanquish the gentiles, (i.e. all non-jews for the pretentious, including theology), just as the God of Ishmael, the son of Abrahim expects to vanquish all non-muslims.

My dear boy, your quoting the Quaran does nothing to persuade me that you follow a faith which is no better than theirs. Therefore, fanatics like you, of any faith, will suffer the boils of hell. For you proscribe the annihilation of the Muslims just as they do you. Despite your convoluted and wayward ideals that yours is the better cause, it is not, for your God and his son �your saviour� according to your scriptures, corrects your sinful path;

And where did I say I wanted to kill all Muslims? Please provide the quote. I do not want to kill them all.

Your Emphasis on?: �I do not want to kill them all.�

Thou shalt not kill! What part of that do you not understand? And why do you presume to have the right of exemption? Here:

Either Islam must go the way of Egyptian, Greek, and Roman mythology, or the infidels will either die, convert, or subject themselves to dhimmi ("protected") status and abject oppression and humiliation�Americans will not be your slaves.

And here:

That's not how I "feel", that's how it is. That's what is written in the Muslim texts, and if you think you can just tell them "I hate America" when they capture you and that will make them be nice to you...LOL. You'll be the first one they gut like a pig.

And here:

The point is so long as Islam exists there will be terrorism, and we beg them to kill us if we continue to pretend Islam is a religion of peace, or a religion no different from any others.

Also, Christians believe Christ is the Son of God. Muslims believe Christ was merely a righteous man.

Not so, Muslims believe Christ was a prophet, the advent of Muhammed. Christ was the sign to the world, the word, the spirit of God. Save for him, Muhammed was the long awaited last prophet. John's gospel might assist you with the relevance.

Allah is not the son of anyone, nor does he have any sons or daughters. This is a basic tenate of Islam. So too is the divinity of Christ in Christianity.

Nor did I say Allah was, I likened Allah to "God' himself, therefore your point is?

Read the Bible and compare it with the Qur'an. This is not the same god we're talking about. Did Muhammad steal many stories and prophets from Judeo-Christianity? Yes. But the differences in the personalities of the god described in the three religions are like night and day.

I have, but it seems I have read both with an interest to expound on my knowledge, not to closet same. They are the same God, ask any Muslim, since they likely know their faith better than you. I do not deny Muhammed stole anything, any more than I deny that the Jews stole from the Egyptian and Sumerian texts, and the Christians from the Jews, Sumerians, Romans, Greeks, Ethiopians and a host of others. That is what makes The Bible so fascinating in its fables to me. Why, it would make the high priests of Isis proud to know they have spawned such an historical debate.

In fact, after we clean up in Afghanistan and Iraq I think we should pull our troops out of the region, seal our borders and develope alternate sources of energy. We should only do business with free nations.

You won't be cleaning up anything actually. American media has been denied access to most of Iraq, and the rest of the world reports that all you control in Afghanistan is relegated to Kabul. The warlords control the rest, the poppy fields are aglow with colour thriving as never before, and the women despite the vote, for the most part, cast their lord and master's wishes at the polls.

My goal here is to force the rest of us to see Islam for what it is: a violent, bloody cult created by a warrior to justify his warmongering. They will continue to kill us as long as we slap "peaceful" Muslims on the back and tell them we know Islam is really a religion of peace. That the terrorists aren't really Muslims. Islam will never get its act together if we assure them nothing is wrong.

A noble goal if it were so that Christianity and Judaism was any better. Alas they are not. However, I do agree that the terrorists are not Islamists, just as those who present themselves as Christians, are not.

In fact we're inviting them to kill us. And if you ever bothered to learn about Islam, there is no way to objectively come to any other conclusion than the conclusion I've reached.

Yes you are, by your beligerence and myopic, sanctimonious view, that you are God's chosen. Here is a fact repeated for you my friend; The goal of Muslims is to eradicate the Jews with the help of Christianity, then eradicate Christianity. The Jews believe Yahweh will eradicate all Muslims, Christians and gentiles for them, while Christians believe that Christ will eradicate all non-Christians and convert the Jews. It's all a sick, sordid belief that one religion holds supreme, and that God will bless the blood stained winner.

It's overwhelming and incontrovertible nonsense which will be settled in Heaven, not on earth.

[edit on 8-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
If you've seen any or all of the beheadings you also see what I'm talking about.

Murder is murder. A human does not die any more by the cutting of his jugular than a bullet in his brain. A quicker death does not make the taking of a life more humane, does it?