Was Jesus Christ just a man? Aetheists vs. Christians, Battle Royale

Nobody ever replied to my post, so I will post it again and ask what makes the story of Jesus real and not these? These came before Jesus.... Born to a virgin mother on Dec. 25th, 12 disciples, died from crucifixion, resurrected, the stories are basically identical.

Buddha, Krishna, Odysseus, Romulus, Dionysus, Heracles, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, Attis of Phrygia, and Horus all have eerily similar, almost identical stories...and these are just 9, there are a lot more with very similar stories.

Originally posted by AlexanderDeLarge
Nobody ever replied to my post, so I will post it again and ask what makes the story of Jesus real and not these? These came before Jesus.... Born to a virgin mother on Dec. 25th, 12 disciples, died from crucifixion, resurrected, the stories are basically identical.

Buddha, Krishna, Odysseus, Romulus, Dionysus, Heracles, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, Attis of Phrygia, and Horus all have eerily similar, almost identical stories...and these are just 9, there are a lot more with very similar stories.

Even a hardened atheist like Richard Carrier dismisses Kersey Graves (who originated the "Jesus myth" theory) as a moron.

Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors

ps: Serious Christians do not believe that Jesus was born on 25 December -- that's a Catholic feast day to celebrate his birth, it is not a birthday party. Best bets are either March or September for his actual birth.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Thank you very much for the reply. I have not read it yet because I'm busy getting ready for a three day canoe trip. I will later. Thanks, as that was a serious question and I respect your beliefs.

reply to post by adjensen


dude...

* Graves often does not distinguish his opinions and theories from what his sources and evidence actually state.
* Graves often omits important sources and evidence.
* Graves often mistreats in a biased or anachronistic way the sources he does use.
* Graves occasionally relies on suspect sources.
* Graves does little or no source analysis or formal textual criticism.
* Graves' work is totally uninformed by modern social history (a field that did not begin to be formally pursued until after World War II, i.e., after Graves died).
* Graves' conclusions and theories often far exceed what the evidence justifies, and he treats both speculations and sound theories as of equal value.
* Graves often ignores important questions of chronology and the actual order of plausible historical influence, and completely disregards the methodological problems this creates.
* Graves' work lacks all humility, which is unconscionable given the great uncertainties that surround the sketchy material he had to work with.
* Graves' scholarship is obsolete, having been vastly improved upon by new methods, materials, discoveries, and textual criticism in the century since he worked. In fact, almost every historical work written before 1950 is regarded as outdated and untrustworthy by historians today.

these are the almost the exact same reasons why pro-biblical research and opinion is not trusted.

reply to post by AlexanderDeLarge


Yes, Jesus was just a man. But a man who had far more intelligence than a normal man.

reply to post by tinhattribunal

What is "pro-biblical research and opinion"?

Why do you think I would be in opposition to any of those complaints of Carrier's?

Let me summarize for you:

Kersey Graves makes up a bunch of bollocks and passes it off as historical research.

Tough to argue with that (assuming you've read Graves, which I have.)

Originally posted by McCool

Originally posted by izero
I have serious doubts that Jesus existed. Someone of note possibly existed. In which case he was probably some kind of Jewish freedom fighter/terrorist against the roman state. This makes sense in context of the rest our history.

Damn, that would be a great plot for a book/movie/tv show. Jesus as a freedom fighter against the Roman state.

I found this just for you!!!!!

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I have given the meaning of the symbols for you. Read the entire Gospel

No. It is you that needs to STOP reading it. You are so enmeshed with your beliefs that you find meaning in everything in the bible. Have you figured out the meaning of the page numbers? Is there a secret just waiting to be discovered if you read the bible backwards?

I do not need to find hidden meanings in the bible, but I would REALLY love for YOU to do is to pick a book - ANY nonreligious book - and see if you can find messages from god in it. Personally, I'm betting you can if you really wanted to.

I can and do. The same answer emerges in a reflection. The answer never changes and this is what excites me so much. I try to show it. I keep saying it. Even Lao Tzu says it in his first paragraph. Buddha says it in his first chapter of the Dhammapada. God says it in the first verse. Over and over, yet so few seem to see it.

There IT is. THE answer, just hanging there and mirrored in Christ.

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The name is the mother of the ten thousand things.

*** Send your desires away and you will see the mystery.
*** Be filled with desire and you will see only the manifestation.

As these two come forth they differ in name.
Yet at their source they are the same.
*** This source is called a mystery.
Darkness within darkness, the gateway to all mystery

Where do things hide? How do two tones disappear within each other? How do you tune two strings the same?

Clearly, you are frustrated. What sets you free?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

 

This is the first time I've disagreed with you... aside from the Jesus is God thing... but that leads to a whole can of Off topicness...

Hell is not rational... in fact its illogical...

Would a loving Father torture his children or give them opportunity to learn from their mistakes?



:shk:

edit on 22-5-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

That question begs the question of whether or not all humans are in fact "God's children". Your answer to that will determine your answer to the question you ask.

I personally don't believe all humans are God's children. If they were, then for even one to be in opposition to God or in denial of his existence would be a failure of God, which in turn would make him not really a god at all.

Likewise, I do not believe in any "brotherhood of man" or universalist salvation.

Whether or not Jesus was actually God is immaterial and a distraction from what he actually was. As long as folks can be made to argue over his deity status, they can be made to forget his messiahship, which it is my understanding was the entire purpose for his visit.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon

 

Contemplation? Tell that to the prisoners.

No need... What else is there to do in an 8x8 cell...

I mostly slept.

Did not feel even slightly reflective. I didn't do anything, so there was nothing to reflect on.

So, I mostly slept, and killed time.

Originally posted by AlexanderDeLarge
Nobody ever replied to my post, so I will post it again and ask what makes the story of Jesus real and not these? These came before Jesus.... Born to a virgin mother on Dec. 25th, 12 disciples, died from crucifixion, resurrected, the stories are basically identical.

Buddha, Krishna, Odysseus, Romulus, Dionysus, Heracles, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, Attis of Phrygia, and Horus all have eerily similar, almost identical stories...and these are just 9, there are a lot more with very similar stories.

For one there are other references to Jesus besides the bible Flavius Josephus is best known for his histories of the Jews, including a first-hand account of the revolt against the Romans (66-73 A.D.) and historical confirmation of the existence and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth Josephus wrote his History of the Jewish War, He mentions Jesus, John the Baptist and James, the martyred brother of Jesus. Although his original texts have been altered over the centuries, most scholars agree that he is one of the best sources of extra-biblical information for the early Christian era.

Then theres the apostles we have proof they existed and they tell us of jesus so again he must have existed.

Julius Africanus

“An eclipse of the sun’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.” Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.

Interesting side note After analyzing seismic activity in the region along with astronomical data, the scientists factored in information from all four Gospels, and determined that the best match for the date of crucifixion would be Friday, April 3, 33.

And the reason Christianity has a mixture of religous beliefs because it does historically speaking but it was designed that way.Modern views of jesus started with emporer Constintine. Constintine wanted to create a new universal religion everyone could follow. He figured if he could untite peopple through a universal religion it would strengthen his empire. So he invented catholism, the word catholic roughly translates as universal.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

 

You badly want to believe the Bible isn't true

No sir. I badly want people to stop believing in fantasies, magic, and evil biblical gods.

Why?

What have you to gain from their stopping, or to lose from their continuing?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
reply to post by Akragon

 

Contemplation? Tell that to the prisoners.

No need... What else is there to do in an 8x8 cell...

I mostly slept.

Did not feel even slightly reflective. I didn't do anything, so there was nothing to reflect on.

So, I mostly slept, and killed time.

Fair enough... To each his own i suppose...

You didn't feel a thought pass that made you regret whatever you did to get tossed in jail?

I have no clue what you did... Thats your business...

Personally i would take the time to think about why i was in the position i was in... And if per chance i got screwed over for whatever reason... Figure out a way to forgive who ever was involved...

Meditation time more then likely...

reply to post by Spawn2001


yes. yes he was.

Oh Jesus (lol)

If I had a dollar for every time I've debated this subject on ATS. *cracks her knuckles* Why not?

I'm not an atheist or a deist. That's a primitive way of thinking.

There is no historical evidence for the existence of Yoshua ben Joseph. There are 0 references to Jesus in contemporary, non-christian sources. All the books of the New Testament were written by people long after he "died". None of those people actually met him.

Now, does that prove he never existed? Of course not. I'm just saying there is no proof he did. One would think a person who made that much of an impact on the world would leave a trace of his existence behind.

I think if there is any shred of truth to the whole fable, it is probably something more along the lines of there was a great man who lived in the middle east a long time ago. He wasn't white with flowing locks and blue eyes and Caucasian features. He was very spiritually and intellectually advanced for his time and attempted to educate people in how they should treat one another based upon his understanding of the world and his Jewish upbringing. Because, if he existed, Jesus was a Jew, probably a Jew from a very strict sect called the Essenes (sp? sorry it's been awhile since I've been in touch with the finer details) who while taking away a lot of the programming of that sect decided he'd rather spend his time with his buddies, lepers, and whores spreading the good word.

Then Saul heard the story of his "life" and decided, "Hey, this might be an excellent control mechanism, being the leader of my new church". Like Ron L. Hubbard. If Jesus actually existed he'd be HORRIFIED by the religion created in his name.

Originally posted by Akragon

Fair enough... To each his own i suppose...

You didn't feel a thought pass that made you regret whatever you did to get tossed in jail?

I have no clue what you did... Thats your business...


Personally i would take the time to think about why i was in the position i was in... And if per chance i got screwed over for whatever reason... Figure out a way to forgive who ever was involved...

Meditation time more then likely...

I didn't do anything to get tossed in jail. I was simply accused, and that was enough. Since I didn't do anything, there was nothing to reflect on. If you have to "figure out a way to forgive", then I think you're probably forgiving wrong - i.e. "doing it wrong"... it's not like there are a dozen different ways to forgive, and you have to choose one. You either forgive, or you don't.

Nope, didn't meditate, either. Mostly slept, and killed time until my days were up and I could bolt and go for my "first appearance" in court, and roll on out of there. They kept a TV on in the common room, but the programming sucked (mostly sports), so I slept.

It wasn't really a place for "reflection", other than meal times. Then you could reflect on the crap they thought might be food.

reply to post by EnochWasRight
youre badass. I'm only half comprehending what you have written so far, but im reading it over an over and gaining a bit more understanding each time.

I love Jesus, he's personally shown me signs and intervened in my life several times.

I've had a really hard road, not nearly as hard as others, but sometimes i feel like Mabye a demon is trying to posess me and stray me from Jesus and the truth.

Point being, I take this subject to heart, which is why I'm hooked to this thread.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Black_Fox

 

LOVE that movie! Should be mandatory viewing for everyone considering ANY Abrahamic religion.

Torture is outlawed by international law and the laws of many nations.

Even if it's just Christians being tortured.

I'd rather sit through a visit to the dentist without anesthetic than be subjected to Bill Maher. Hell, he might even be worse than those Christian missionary types for the annoyance factor. You know how they're constantly running around and trying to get folks to save themselves from themselves - so long as they use that particular missionaries brand of "salvation"? Yeah, now Maher's doing the same thing for the atheists.

I'd rather eat chalk and then scrape my TEETH across the blackboard, than to be subjected to either of those cases. Can I opt for being waterboarded instead?

Originally posted by GoShredAK
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

youre badass. I'm only half comprehending what you have written so far, but im reading it over an over and gaining a bit more understanding each time.

I love Jesus, he's personally shown me signs and intervened in my life several times.

I've had a really hard road, not nearly as hard as others, but sometimes i feel like Mabye a demon is trying to posess me and stray me from Jesus and the truth.

Point being, I take this subject to heart, which is why I'm hooked to this thread.

We are running blind from birth, but we know in our being that we existed before this life. Why the veil over our temple? We are being redeemed from something that came before. Look across the landscape of beliefs and you find a common theme. Salvation is being saved from something we own as a debt. We now have enough information to piece it all together and my threads and posts are simply my attempt to see the larger picture. The Bible tells us to seek and find. I take that seriously. What have I found? There are two sides to the world (Heaven and Earth). Both are pulling against each other equally. Heaven cannot be pulled down, but Earth is a middle ground as an opportunity to overcome the next level down. We are baptized into the waters between so that we can rise to new life. Repentance is the key.

Read this and you get more understanding: Document belonging to the Instructor

Sure you are being pulled. Which direction? Know that the light is pulling you as well. Simply surrender to what can be seen clearly. Do you see light? No. You see what light reveals. If you could see light, you would see a wash of it between you and all the objects it reveals. Light hits you and does the same thing. Recognize what it tells you and embrace the message. Turn from the darkness to the light and darkness cannot contend with you.

It is a Battle Royale. No doubt. Darkness cannot over come the light and even an Atheist sees what light reveals. Confessing what is evident is the point. Rejecting what is evident is suppressing the truth. This is what sends us descending down rather than rising up.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Have you ever heard the term, "Rooted and grounded in the Word" as a place to exist? Think of a plant and the soil needed to nurture the plant. Read the verse above and your solution is illuminated.

In the Beginning (TIME), God created the Heavens (SPACE FOR MATTER) and the Earth (MATTER ITSELF). Let there be light.

What is seen in nature is the truth behind the one that created it. The Bible agrees with what it reveals in nature. Science can claim what it wants. The Bible holds the higher axioms.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


The whole thing is a lie! belief in a deity that will some day save the rightous! Come on take a real hard look at these preachers on tv they look like used car salesman trying to sell the weak minded a used lemon. Religion is the biggest money scam on the face of the rock floating through the chasm...