Why should Immoral people change?

Originally posted by TheConstruKctionofLight
reply to post by logical7

 

Sharia is a preventive system, it identifies the root cause of social evils and problems and lays laws to crush it in the bud.

And yet: Sharia Law:

1)Women are eligible for only half of the inheritance of men.
2)Virgins may be married against their will by a father or grandfather.
3)Women may not leave the house without a husband's permission.
4)Men can marry four women and beat insubordinate wives.
5)A woman's testimony in court is worth half that of men.

Seems like the objective is to CRUSH women in the bud...by your own dictates you are condemned

1) half inheritance with no responsibility to spend, unlike men who are obliged to mantain women(mother,sister, wife) and kids
2)not true.
3)not true in the sense you take it. A good loving wife will naturally inform the husband and accept if he refuses as there maybe a reason. Its a mutual trust not an owner slave relationship. The husband can equally behave the same.
When duties of muslim men and women are spelled they seem harsh but they are to the person concerned. The one who benifits from them can't demand it and not at all if he is not doing his part.
4)yes, upto 4.

(4:3) If you fear that you might not treat the orphans justly, then marry the women that seem good to you: two, or three, or four. If you fear that you will not be able to treat them justly, then marry (only) one, or marry from among those whom your right hands possess. This will make it more likely that you will avoid injustice.

ask a mistress if she would better like to be a 2nd wife with equal respect in society and rights as that of 1st and i predict an affirmative reply.
beating a wife is also not encouraged, its only for a woman getting inclined towards cheating and its not directly beating.
Its definitely not how its done in many places, a man who wants to beat his wife does not need Qur'an to do it. Wife beating is not religious monopoly, ask wildtimes about domestic violence in the west.
5) in some cases not all, verdicts have been given even with testimony of a single woman.

You just repeat what you have been told, have you examined it critically before judging it?
You obviously have no need to, i as a muslim have read and examined it and found it consistent, so i stay a muslim as this 'way of life' makes more sense than any other to people who are certain about God and afterlife.
For you its seems wrong to restrict one's freedoms in hope of a better next life.(i don't know your belief maybe you can tell me)

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by TheConstruKctionofLight
reply to post by logical7

 

And yet: Sharia Law:

*
2)Virgins may be married against their will by a father or grandfather.
3)Women may not leave the house without a husband's permission.
4)Men can marry four women and beat insubordinate wives.
5)A woman's testimony in court is worth half that of men.

Seems like the objective is to CRUSH women in the bud...by your own dictates you are condemned

2)not true.

YES TRUE. See the stories I posted a page or so ago. There are TONS of cases where girls are 'given' as brides to old men. Sick.

3)not true in the sense you take it. A good loving wife will naturally inform the husband and accept if he refuses as there maybe a reason. Its a mutual trust not an owner slave relationship. The husband can equally behave the same.
When duties of muslim men and women are spelled they seem harsh but they are to the person concerned. The one who benifits from them can't demand it and not at all if he is not doing his part.

YES TRUE. Again, see the stories I posted. Yes, they DO seem harsh, because they ARE harsh, and imply that the woman is incapable of making her own decisions regarding to whom she might speak or where she might go.
"Can't demand it?" But they can kill their wives or daughters if they leave without permission. I don't call that mutual respect; I call it subjugation and mistrust.

4)yes, upto 4.

So, no cheating husbands, then, right? RIGHT? Nonsense.

(4:3) If you fear that you might not treat the orphans justly, then marry the women that seem good to you: two, or three, or four. If you fear that you will not be able to treat them justly, then marry (only) one, or marry from among those whom your right hands possess. This will make it more likely that you will avoid injustice.

ask a mistress if she would better like to be a 2nd wife with equal respect in society and rights as that of 1st and i predict an affirmative reply.

But, but, no multiple lovers allowance for women, right? RIGHT? No, she's property. He can accumulate more of them. And she can not. Nonsense. Double-standard.

beating a wife is also not encouraged, its only for a woman getting inclined towards cheating and its not directly beating.

Oh, right - taking an axe to chop up your abused runaway sister and her lover isn't directly beating. I see. It's stalking, assault and battery with intent to kill with a deadly weapon.

Funnily enough, it's ILLEGAL in the west.
And how the hell would you know if a woman is getting inclined towards cheating? Because the sight of you makes her quake with fear and want to vomit - and she cringes when you 'touch' or 'beat' her? Yeah, that's a sign you might want to pay attention to. We call it a 'red flag.'

Its definitely not how its done in many places, a man who wants to beat his wife does not need Qur'an to do it. Wife beating is not religious monopoly, ask wildtimes about domestic violence in the west.

No, wife beating is not a religious monopoly. There are brutish men everywhere who do NOT respect, value, or really 'love' their wives. It's STILL ABUSE, no matter how you want to deflect to "the West." Yours is just "sanctioned" by your book(s). "Misogyny" mean anything to you? Wife beating is ILLEGAL here, under ANY circumstances.

5) in some cases not all, verdicts have been given even with testimony of a single woman.

Oh well, okay, then! My goodness, what a relief! :shk:

You just repeat what you have been told, have you examined it critically before judging it?

Have YOU?

You obviously have no need to, i as a muslim have read and examined it and found it consistent, so i stay a muslim as this 'way of life' makes more sense than any other to people who are certain about God and afterlife.
For you its seems wrong to restrict one's freedoms in hope of a better next life.

Yeah, you've examined it and found it allows you to have multiple lovers, control the wardrobe, whereabouts, and communications of your multiple wives, beat them if you suspect they are 'inclined to cheat' (most likely due to the way they are treated like expendable TRASH and pieces of MEAT), and no one will listen to them in a court of Sharia law anyway.

Nice. Very civilized. How very peaceful. No, you find it "CONVENIENT", not "CONSISTENT." But of course you would, it gives you ALL the power and a promise of a 'blissful next life' which you can in NO WAY prove to be assured. Poor wifey, or sister, or daughter. They get hacked up with an axe, or beaten and mistreated, but you get to go to heaven?

You just really don't get it, do you?!!! You don't. Wow. Again, just wow.

reply to post by logical7


Of course it's not incorruptible, I never said it was. Society is what corrupts morality, and yes, religion is a HUGE part of society. Ever seen a video of Muslims killing others? I have, and I hear them screaming "Allahu Akbar" at every turn, whether it's blowing someone up with an IED or cutting someone's head off. They do what they do in the name of their god. If god instilled moral values, we wouldn't see that happening, but we do.

reply to post by wildtimes

Yeah, you've examined it and found it allows you to have multiple lovers, control the wardrobe, whereabouts, and communications of your multiple wives, beat them if you suspect they are 'inclined to cheat' (most likely due to the way they are treated like expendable TRASH and pieces of MEAT), and no one will listen to them in a court of Sharia law anyway. Nice. Very civilized. How very peaceful. No, you find it "CONVENIENT", not "CONSISTENT." But of course you would, it gives you ALL the power and a promise of a 'blissful next life' which you can in NO WAY prove to be assured. Poor wifey, or sister, or daughter. They get hacked up with an axe, or beaten and mistreated, but you get to go to heaven? You just really don't get it, do you?!!! You don't. Wow. Again, just wow.

wildtimes, you are on a roll
you just forget that the cases you point are not representing what Islam teaches, its showing what some muslims are doing.
The same as an American serial killer does not represent American values.
Will you agree that west is bad if i point similar cases in USA, maybe even more horrible??

Remember the golden rule.

Also try and talk to a muslimah and ask her, i am obviously biased, misogynist etc etc

reply to post by logical7


I am sorry but Islam kind of falls apart on the multiple wives front. I know many Muslim wives in America and not one of them would even think it ok for their husband to have a second wife. They could care less what a book says they know in their heart that their husband belongs to them as an equal partner.

Anything less than an equal partnership will result in the slavery of the weaker party.

You cannot win this debate, because women have already won the debate in every nation that allows women to debate. They are the equal partner; they are not property or slaves.

Moses forgave divorce because we are weak and chin deep in our sin. So because we were unable to love one another he gave us divorce by concession. Jesus made it clear that we are equal partners and that if two marry, they should understand the bond in which they are making. They should be prepared to learn any lesson that God may have prepared for them. They must always continue to love and remain faithful. This is what Jesus said.

Therefore divorce remains a concession for the weak, but love the demand for the one who would pursue love above all else. The promise depression for the weak, Joy for the strong. Be strong.

reply to post by logical7

you just forget that the cases you point are not representing what Islam teaches, its showing what some muslims are doing.

Well done. Just as I suspected, and EXpected....you say they are 'not really representing Islam', and part of 'the ignorant masses.'

Well, just FYI, no one in 'the West' is allowed to do those things. Yet you keep saying, 'That's not Islam, they don't know.' Even the MOST extreme Christians are not out there axing their siblings to death. NONE of them have 4 wives and think it's okay to beat them 'if they seem inclined to cheat.'

Pubescent (12, 13 years old) ARE married off to old men. THOSE THINGS are not happening in 'the West'.

What a fail.
You say....."Wild! You are on a roll ", as though it's humorous and absurd. But you fail to indicate how your 'statements' refute the actual events that I have cited (all of which indicate that your premise is flawed).

Become an 'Imam' or 'mullah' or whatever, teach your own 'believing' brothers how to behave, get a LESS VIOLENT OUTCOME and let the world see it in the MSM......as evidence in the real world.... and then come and tell me how 'ignorant' I am. Please. I don't enjoy feeling negative or intolerant. I just see too much violence, EVERYWHERE.

No one in 'the West' feels it's okay to beat your wife (let alone have multiple wives) - to try to axe to death your sister - to murder your daughter because 'you gave up on her being a moral person after ONE YEAR of trying.' We don't even consider that 'reasonable' - and our judicial system shows that.

It's ridiculous to make excuses for violating basic human rights.
I may be out of line here, or flat out wrong and generally discredited, but, log7, I'm fairly certain this debate has concluded.
Good night.

reply to post by wildtimes


Have you heard of the Jihad in Syria who recently ate a dead man's heart? Barbaric and disgusting, and of course he praised Allah before doing it.

The world is a messed up place.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Have you heard of the Jihad in Syria who recently ate a dead man's heart?

No.....*horror face, hand on mouth and gasping*

Barbaric and disgusting,

Yes.

Wow.

reply to post by wildtimes


It happened some time in the last few days, I wouldn't recommend watching the video. It's blurred out but you still get the full effect.

What I find even more disgusting is that he was an FSA soldier, the same army that America is supporting and funding at the moment.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


THAT IS SICK!!! And THAT is the problem. It's the sociopathic, psychotic 'shadow government' that runs these things.

Have you ever read a novel (classic) called Captains and the Kings by Taylor Caldwell?

It's a movie now, too.....
just do a googlebing on it.....
talks about this very subject going back to the American Civil War.

reply to post by wildtimes


I agree.

No, I haven't run across it yet, I just might have to check it out.

reply to post by wildtimes

Well, just FYI, no one in 'the West' is allowed to do those things. Yet you keep saying, 'That's not Islam, they don't know.' Even the MOST extreme Christians are not out there axing their siblings to death. NONE of them have 4 wives and think it's okay to beat them 'if they seem inclined to cheat.' Pubescent (12, 13 years old) ARE married off to old men. THOSE THINGS are not happening in 'the West'.

Really? So some are not axing their near relations? None have mistresses that the wife is aware, much more unaware? No domestic violence for trivial reasons?
Old men taking advantage of young girls?
THESE THINGS are happening in the west, much more than the criminal cases you found. Yes they are crimes and will be punished. No muslim approves of killing siblings as you think!

reply to post by wildtimes

Well done. Just as I suspected, and EXpected....you say they are 'not really representing Islam', and part of 'the ignorant masses.'

exactly like you did when i pointed the evils in western society!
Eg.
Violence/accidents due to alcohol=> "there are responsible drinkers" WHAT?? how does that reduce the evil effects?

February 11, 2011 11:00:18
Alcohol causes nearly 4 percent of
deaths worldwide, more than AIDS,
tuberculosis or violence, the World
Health Organization warned on Friday. Rising incomes have triggered more
drinking in heavily populated
countries in Africa and Asia, including
India and South Africa, and binge
drinking is a problem in many
developed countries, the United Nations agency said. Yet alcohol control policies are weak
and remain a low priority for most
governments despite drinking's heavy
toll on society from road accidents,
violence, disease, child neglect and job
absenteeism, it said. Approximately 2.5 million people die
each year from alcohol related causes,
the WHO said in its "Global Status
Report on Alcohol and Health." "The harmful use of alcohol is
especially fatal for younger age
groups and alcohol is the world's
leading risk factor for death among
males aged 15-59," the report found. In Russia and the Commonwealth of
Independent States (CIS), every fifth
death is due to harmful drinking, the
highest rate. Binge drinking, which often leads to
risky behavior, is now prevalent in
Brazil, Kazakhstan, Mexico, Russia,
South Africa and Ukraine, and rising
elsewhere, according to the WHO. "Worldwide, about 11 percent of
drinkers have weekly heavy episodic
drinking occasions, with men
outnumbering women by four to one.
Men consistently engage in hazardous
drinking at much higher levels than women in all regions," the report said. Health ministers from the WHO's 193
member states agreed last May to try
to curb binge drinking and other
growing forms of excessive alcohol
use through higher taxes on alcoholic
drinks and tighter marketing restrictions.

STDs, teenage pregnancies etc=> "STOP, STOP, let me show you some crimes by muslims"

wildtimes the above evils happen due to something you backup as enjoyable(alcohol) or natural(sex)

The cases you mentioned are wrong in Islam, kill in wrong, abusing wife is wrong. 4 wives are allow with a qualifier of 'justice' to each. Marrying a girl against her wish is wrong.

4:19
O ye who
believe! Ye
are
forbidden
to inherit
women against their
will. Nor
should ye
treat them
with
harshness, that ye may
Take away
part of the
dower ye
have given
them,- except
where they
have been
guilty of
open
lewdness; on the
contrary live
with them
on a footing
of kindness
and equity. If ye take a
dislike to
them it may
be that ye
dislike a
thing, and Allah brings
about
through it a
great deal
of good.

pagan arabs treated women as inheritance!
so my statement still stands that muslims should follow Islam more and not remain ignorant of their own religious teachings.

I am condemning the evils in my society and want them to disappear and following Islam more will make it happen. If muslims would just read Qur'an(even translation)

You are promoting things that lead to evils and want to teach people to become more responsible drinkers etc, good luck with that

the debate can now be over or you may reply

reply to post by logical7


You don't believe reading too much into holy books to justify certian actions doesn't lead to evils?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

You don't believe reading too much into holy books to justify certian actions doesn't lead to evils?

i do believe that

3:7
He it is Who has
sent down to
thee the Book: In
it are verses basic
or fundamental
(of established meaning); they
are the
foundation of the
Book: others are
allegorical. But
those in whose hearts is
perversity follow
the part thereof
that is allegorical,
seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden
meanings, but no
one knows its
hidden meanings
except Allah.
And those who are firmly
grounded in
knowledge say:
"We believe in
the Book; the
whole of it is from our Lord:"
and none will
grasp the
Message except
men of
understanding.

the fanatics and islamophobes both are people without knowledge and see in Qur'an meanings that they desperately want to see.
Saying its the fault of a holy book is a lame reason given by anti-religious people to justify their anti-religious feeling as valid and the ingenious idea of eradicating religion/holy book to make world peaceful is laughable
there was a time when USA was saving the world from godless communist.
Now it is busy saving the world from "God is Great" screaming Jihadists
the only thing that remains constant is war-mongering the excuses change.
Thank God USA is not a muslim country or the war-mongers would have declared Jihad against the infidel world!!

reply to post by logical7


The point being... Don't blame the book.. Or the substance (alcohol)

Evil can come from anywhere... But it starts with the person... Not an outside source

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

The point being... Don't blame the book.. Or the substance (alcohol)

Evil can come from anywhere... But it starts with the person... Not an outside source

yes
i edited my post to say the same
i am just demanding the giving up of double standards!
When its muslims then blame the Book/Islam, when its drunkards then blame the individual and then claim to be an intellectual!

reply to post by logical7


Well... There is another side to the debate

Alcohol isn't "inspired" from a God... so anything that happens as a result of its use can only be blamed on the user...

Holy books from the Abrahamic religions do tell people to do evil acts... So if said person believes God inspired these words... The book is as much to blame as the person...

Alcohol makes no threats to a persons well being or spiritual future if its not used...

Religion does if its not followed

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

Well... There is another side to the debate

Alcohol isn't "inspired" from a God... so anything that happens as a result of its use can only be blamed on the user...

Holy books from the Abrahamic religions do tell people to do evil acts... So if said person believes God inspired these words... The book is as much to blame as the person...

Alcohol makes no threats to a persons well being or spiritual future if its not used...

Religion does if its not followed

You are mixing up things a bit. I am not representing all holy books, i myself have a problem with OT. The blame of misinterpretation of Qur'an is on the misintepreter.
There is a verse in Qur'an that says not to come to the masjid drunk, now you may jump on that as you love beer(just joking)
but that verse is an early one and Qur'an was revealed slowly(23 years) it was training muslims to abstain and then later alcohol got forbidden. Now 'modern' muslims who 'want' to have a beer will say "well its not forbidden, if we don't get drunk enough to lose judgement etc etc"
but many people here may back up those muslims as it fits their own thinking/desires and i am just a brainwashed conservative backward muslim

Threats by religion are intended to make people better.
Its abused by religious leaders the same as a POTUS may give an inspirational speech soaked with patriotism/nationalism to make people agree with a war, motivate soldiers to kill and die. Does the soldier really knows much? He is ignorant believing that he is doing the right thing.
I want all people to use their brains be it frenzied crowd stirred by a mullah or soldiers becoming pawns of war-mongers!!

reply to post by logical7


Unfortunately i don't know your book... So i can't very well coment on its contents.

I do however know the OT... And there are some down right evil things within its pages.

Does your book tell people to kill others... Like witches and gays?

Only thing i don't understand is why alcohol ia forbidden when its a well known fact that Jesus drank?

I think we've been over this...

By the way, i do love beer!

Its a national past time in Canada.