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Let's Talk About True Sacrifice: Part 2
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reply to post by Wandering Scribe
I see it as being an empty sacrifice. All it does is give people a reason to do something they should do anyway, for reasons that entirely belie the nature of what they're doing. Be afraid now so you don't have to be afraid in the afterlife. Serve me and no other or you will be righteously punished for not having done so. Rely upon my power and forsake all belief in your own.
A worthy sacrifice is a gift given expecting nothing in return, a gift given at the expense of your own person. You lose absolutely; something you have is lost and never returned. As a result, the gift is given without term or condition, given absolutely and irrevocably and indefinitely. This is a worthy sacrifice. A gift that lasts forever, as a result of something lost forever.
"God" has lost nothing. He can lose nothing. He is incapable of making sacrifice because he is incapable of surrender. If he cannot sacrifice, it will always be us who makes the sacrifice. This is not an equal relationship. This is a tyranny. A man who cannot lose is a man who does not know what it is to win. So how can he understand anything of success or victory? Any way you slice it, the inability to fail, lose, or surrender is a blazing red flag that should make anyone look twice at the god they have chosen or been made aware of.
Certainly, some would view an invincible soldier as an asset to covet. But what if that soldier decides to lead himself? What if he decides he will listen to no one but himself? What if he decides that his word is final, that he is all powerful and therefore deserving of the universal crown? Who will stop him should he demonstrate a lack of understanding? Who can eliminate him should he prove a threat to the well-being of all that is good and right?
These are my concerns, and to this point, no one has managed to assuage my fears. Furthermore, as an atheist, it is not the god who concerns me, but those who would seek to approve of, and emulate, his example and his nature. We refuse to accept our nature as human beings because it is not good enough for us. We think we are garbage, and so we will forever seek to have power we do not need. And when we finally have it, what will we do with it? We will use it. We will flaunt it. We will wield it in such a fashion as to convince ourselves that we deserve this power and can use it to the best of everyone.
Until...someone disagrees on what is best for everyone. And that is what concerns me most.
I don't think there's such a thing as True Sacrifice (capital letters). There's only a worthy sacrifice, and an empty sacrifice. Anyone is capable of either. It all depends on the context. Specifically, whether the one you're sacrificing for is aware of what you're doing, and accepts your sacrifice.
I see it as being an empty sacrifice. All it does is give people a reason to do something they should do anyway, for reasons that entirely belie the nature of what they're doing. Be afraid now so you don't have to be afraid in the afterlife. Serve me and no other or you will be righteously punished for not having done so. Rely upon my power and forsake all belief in your own.
A worthy sacrifice is a gift given expecting nothing in return, a gift given at the expense of your own person. You lose absolutely; something you have is lost and never returned. As a result, the gift is given without term or condition, given absolutely and irrevocably and indefinitely. This is a worthy sacrifice. A gift that lasts forever, as a result of something lost forever.
"God" has lost nothing. He can lose nothing. He is incapable of making sacrifice because he is incapable of surrender. If he cannot sacrifice, it will always be us who makes the sacrifice. This is not an equal relationship. This is a tyranny. A man who cannot lose is a man who does not know what it is to win. So how can he understand anything of success or victory? Any way you slice it, the inability to fail, lose, or surrender is a blazing red flag that should make anyone look twice at the god they have chosen or been made aware of.
Certainly, some would view an invincible soldier as an asset to covet. But what if that soldier decides to lead himself? What if he decides he will listen to no one but himself? What if he decides that his word is final, that he is all powerful and therefore deserving of the universal crown? Who will stop him should he demonstrate a lack of understanding? Who can eliminate him should he prove a threat to the well-being of all that is good and right?
These are my concerns, and to this point, no one has managed to assuage my fears. Furthermore, as an atheist, it is not the god who concerns me, but those who would seek to approve of, and emulate, his example and his nature. We refuse to accept our nature as human beings because it is not good enough for us. We think we are garbage, and so we will forever seek to have power we do not need. And when we finally have it, what will we do with it? We will use it. We will flaunt it. We will wield it in such a fashion as to convince ourselves that we deserve this power and can use it to the best of everyone.
Until...someone disagrees on what is best for everyone. And that is what concerns me most.
reply to post by vethumanbeing
~ Wandering Scribe
God can have Wanderingscribes soul as it realises its going back to its source anyway, as we all will eventually, problem, God fails to recognise Wanderings soul as it does not believe in God or Hell, so its soul is going where exactly? No point (does not understand soul speak or selfdome) Wandering arrives at the LeBrea Tar Pits and has only one choice, dive in and become part of future palolithic history.
No God could teach me what my father did
No promise of Heaven kept me warm
When my mother tucked me in
No hope for salvation kept me from sin
Just a small intuition not to do
What all the bad ones did
- Casey Crescenzo
~ Wandering Scribe
reply to post by AfterInfinity
There's nothing to disagree with in your post.
There's no reason anyone should ever have been convinced of the "sacrifice" Jesus made. Nor is there any reason to believe in the infallibility of the God whose Testament(s) the children of Abraham adhere to. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all wrong.
The only sacrifices we should ever be aware of, and honor, are those of our immediate circle: our family, our friends, and our loved ones; and the sacrifices we, in return, make for them.
...you can toss in the sacrifices of police, military, and other emergency services if you'd like too. But, I have personal qualms about the police and military forces, which occasionally make me think their sacrifices are empty, instead of worthy.
While not an atheist myself, I'm certainly not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew, and so the sacrifice and Law of their God doesn't affect me.
~ Wandering Scribe
There's nothing to disagree with in your post.
There's no reason anyone should ever have been convinced of the "sacrifice" Jesus made. Nor is there any reason to believe in the infallibility of the God whose Testament(s) the children of Abraham adhere to. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all wrong.
The only sacrifices we should ever be aware of, and honor, are those of our immediate circle: our family, our friends, and our loved ones; and the sacrifices we, in return, make for them.
...you can toss in the sacrifices of police, military, and other emergency services if you'd like too. But, I have personal qualms about the police and military forces, which occasionally make me think their sacrifices are empty, instead of worthy.
While not an atheist myself, I'm certainly not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew, and so the sacrifice and Law of their God doesn't affect me.
~ Wandering Scribe
Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by vethumanbeing
God can have Wanderingscribes soul as it realises its going back to its source anyway, as we all will eventually, problem, God fails to recognise Wanderings soul as it does not believe in God or Hell, so its soul is going where exactly? No point (does not understand soul speak or selfdome) Wandering arrives at the LeBrea Tar Pits and has only one choice, dive in and become part of future paleolithic history.
No God could teach me what my father did, No promise of Heaven kept me warm When my mother tucked me in No hope for salvation kept me from sin Just a small intuition not to do What all the bad ones did
- Casey Crescenzo~ Wandering Scribe
Nice; the potencial of human spirit in an origami paperfold. I like it. You stated you are Pagan. After Infinity is a proclaimed Athiest, yet you talk to each other in somewhat civilized a manner. Organized religion is the culprit (turning this all back upon myself), its distortions, lies, misrepresentation of battered, buttered up blowhards..dressing their ICONS in costume like GIJoe and Ken plastic dolls; PAPPA POPE the Pharasee, Bishops and force fed to us. I look at the majordomo of the world all nations and the military dress alike, in bellhop uniforms with shoulder boards and ridiculous hats. With the Uniform comes the office? Jesus wore linen, a simple frock. Id like to see him in full military dress (have to cut that beard and hair). St Germaine is supposed to wear something similiar to what Kaiser Wilhelm wore.
edit on 7-6-2013 by vethumanbeing
because: (no reason given)
reply to post by AfterInfinity
By all human understanding GOD seems illogical and therefore the most logical answer is that he does not exist or does not know how to love. The understanding we all seek is found in the spiritual realm. We truly are in a reflection and the truth is hidden in plain sight. I'm sorry i didn't answer you direct questions in the op but they are a bit out of my understanding because i know that jesus already gave his life so you could write this op.
What you said in my thread about being your own savior does make sense to me because i can not walk your path to find the truth. Do you feel like there is any type of power structure in the universe and that our world is a reflection of that in some ways? do you think it is more likely that we have not been givin full disclosure about other lifeforms or have been invaded by someone because we are under someones protection or do you just feel that earth is lucky so far?
By all human understanding GOD seems illogical and therefore the most logical answer is that he does not exist or does not know how to love. The understanding we all seek is found in the spiritual realm. We truly are in a reflection and the truth is hidden in plain sight. I'm sorry i didn't answer you direct questions in the op but they are a bit out of my understanding because i know that jesus already gave his life so you could write this op.
What you said in my thread about being your own savior does make sense to me because i can not walk your path to find the truth. Do you feel like there is any type of power structure in the universe and that our world is a reflection of that in some ways? do you think it is more likely that we have not been givin full disclosure about other lifeforms or have been invaded by someone because we are under someones protection or do you just feel that earth is lucky so far?
reply to post by AfterInfinity
I second what Wandering Scribe states:
You are an Atheist. Maybe that is because you do believe in your highest concept of God.
Pantheists and Panentheists believe in this God also, the One who did make the worthy sacrifice, and therefore does no longer exist as a discreet individual, if He/She ever did.
Yes, priestcraft creates these gods that "exist" in contrast to He/She who no longer does, Those that "exist" have needs in order to "continue to exist", and as you say the cost is human sacrifice.
Priestcraft itself becomes the god. Such is the god of Moses. Christian and Muslim gods emulate the god of Moses.
And since I'm agreeing with you, I should stop trying to make some final point.
Yes, that's what happens.
I second what Wandering Scribe states:
There's nothing to disagree with in your post.
You are an Atheist. Maybe that is because you do believe in your highest concept of God.
A worthy sacrifice is a gift given expecting nothing in return, a gift given at the expense of your own person. You lose absolutely; something you have is lost and never returned. As a result, the gift is given without term or condition, given absolutely and irrevocably and indefinitely. This is a worthy sacrifice. A gift that lasts forever, as a result of something lost forever.
Pantheists and Panentheists believe in this God also, the One who did make the worthy sacrifice, and therefore does no longer exist as a discreet individual, if He/She ever did.
Furthermore, as an atheist, it is not the god who concerns me, but those who would seek to approve of, and emulate, his example and his nature. We refuse to accept our nature as human beings because it is not good enough for us.
Yes, priestcraft creates these gods that "exist" in contrast to He/She who no longer does, Those that "exist" have needs in order to "continue to exist", and as you say the cost is human sacrifice.
Priestcraft itself becomes the god. Such is the god of Moses. Christian and Muslim gods emulate the god of Moses.
And since I'm agreeing with you, I should stop trying to make some final point.
we will forever seek to have power we do not need.
Yes, that's what happens.
reply to post by deadeyedick
Do you possess something other than human understanding? If so, then...how?
I don't give any of the credit in my life to Jesus other than the actions of my associates who are influenced by their belief in him. If my questions are out of your understanding, then I don't see how you can claim to have any knowledge to give me. All you have is speculation - which is fine, considering that's how this thread started.
Sure. Just look at the four core forces of the universes. That's the power structure we have been give to deal with - the four forces that influence the entirety of our reality.
That is not for me to say. I'm not in a position to possess any of the necessary data for determining such things. All I know is what I have been given to work with, and my objective analysis of that data according to the laws we are familiar with. Perhaps we have not experienced extended encounters because they know us better than we know ourselves. They know we are not yet ready for what they have to tell us.
But again, this is speculation.
By all human understanding GOD seems illogical and therefore the most logical answer is that he does not exist or does not know how to love.
Do you possess something other than human understanding? If so, then...how?
The understanding we all seek is found in the spiritual realm. We truly are in a reflection and the truth is hidden in plain sight. I'm sorry i didn't answer you direct questions in the op but they are a bit out of my understanding because i know that jesus already gave his life so you could write this op.
I don't give any of the credit in my life to Jesus other than the actions of my associates who are influenced by their belief in him. If my questions are out of your understanding, then I don't see how you can claim to have any knowledge to give me. All you have is speculation - which is fine, considering that's how this thread started.
What you said in my thread about being your own savior does make sense to me because i can not walk your path to find the truth. Do you feel like there is any type of power structure in the universe and that our world is a reflection of that in some ways?
Sure. Just look at the four core forces of the universes. That's the power structure we have been give to deal with - the four forces that influence the entirety of our reality.
do you think it is more likely that we have not been givin full disclosure about other lifeforms or have been invaded by someone because we are under someones protection or do you just feel that earth is lucky so far?
That is not for me to say. I'm not in a position to possess any of the necessary data for determining such things. All I know is what I have been given to work with, and my objective analysis of that data according to the laws we are familiar with. Perhaps we have not experienced extended encounters because they know us better than we know ourselves. They know we are not yet ready for what they have to tell us.
But again, this is speculation.
edit on 8-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by deadeyedick
reply to post by AfterInfinity
By all human understanding GOD seems illogical and therefore the most logical answer is that he does not exist or does not know how to love. The understanding we all seek is found in the spiritual realm. We truly are in a reflection and the truth is hidden in plain sight. I'm sorry i didn't answer you direct questions in the op but they are a bit out of my understanding because i know that jesus already gave his life so you could write this op.
What you said in my thread about being your own savior does make sense to me because i can not walk your path to find the truth. Do you feel like there is any type of power structure in the universe and that our world is a reflection of that in some ways? do you think it is more likely that we have not been givin full disclosure about other lifeforms or have been invaded by someone because we are under someones protection or do you just feel that earth is lucky so far?
God is incomprehensible, is that the point, to fathom a no show exists or is non-existant or YOU HAVE TO INVENT IT. If God is A gaseous cloud and determines to allow an idea of CHILDREN; it would rely upon the notion of its creation (you) to fill in the weave. What Sickens me actually is the potencial falsity the Carrot DANGLE from a pole somewhere held by someone? Personally (although no one asked and its not my thread) ITS Creatively BRILLIANT to jumpstart or destroy one way or the other The Human; allowing evil darkness and good enlightenment to duke it out, God has the wisdom to understand these are tests. There is no power structure in the Universe, only imagined and that applied by some very intelligent beings YOU CANNOT SEE as they reside in another dimension entirely. Disclosure of other entities? they are all about you, why can you not see them, they are your family DNA progeniters (your physical creators). God is something else entirely, just a thoughtform trying to express its self IS ALL; and you are the expression.
edit on 12-6-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)
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