Let's Talk About True Sacrifice: Part 2

reply to post by ElohimJD


Which means "God" is experiencing the equivalent of Option # 2 at the beginning of this thread, because in the hypothetical event, he has chosen not to destroy this universe or himself - yet. Looks like he's caught in a Morton's Fork.

Out of a world or ocean of different religions and beliefs on earth, many are domination, and some open the portals to worship demiurges and fallen ones, or nature even.

There is a Family of Love and Goodness, the true way back home and the "ascension" is still shown by the concrete grass root to the abstract and metaphorical Christ, who did not harm, but washed the feet of his disciple, humble of heart, defined what Love is: visiting the sick, the forsaken, the poor, sharing, even the limited amount of fish and loaves of bread, and even criminals in prison, there is no limit to what love can do and love does not give up on anyone, there is nothing in this world that is equal to the inner waters, the Love and true heavens, all here is dross, do not forsake your beloved on the streets, homeless, the orphans, those in need, not even the drug addict, not even the prisoners, but lend a helping hand with what we have. Try to multiply it to more, our gifts.

For the Family is forever. Family here, Family above, as Above So Below, don't allow them to divide and conquer.

Think positive thoughts, and have faith in Love and Goodness.


Era - Don't go away

Don't Go Away. Forever and ever you belong. There is no other place we belong. Don't go away. From Love and Family.

Which leads into this one, as their songs are about waking up, and being Love, turning the dial up on our love.

Time being the testing ground, don't stay here, it wasn't meant for a long term home.


Era - Cathar Rhythm and After Time

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

Which means "God" is experiencing the equivalent of Option # 2 at the beginning of this thread, because in the hypothetical event, he has chosen not to destroy this universe or himself - yet. Looks like he's caught in a Morton's Fork.

edit on 12-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You are choosing to interpret what is true in this manner and you are free at this time to do so.

The turth is He has sacrificed Himself in order to create a family by the only means possible in life. He is neither destroying Himself or the Creation, but that is not the same as your scenario 2; but rather an option 3 which you cannot "see".

He is transforming the creation into one of everlasting peace for all eternity over time, by the birth of the Family of God.

Rom 8:19
"For the earnest expectation of the whole of creation waiteth for the manifestation (birth) of the sons of God."

Just like He chose to sacrifice His only son as a Passover Lamb in order that the evil we create can be redeemed by the God of mercy and Forgivness. This moment spoken of in Romans 8 is about to be made manifest.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

The turth is He has sacrificed Himself in order to create a family by the only means possible in life. He is neither destroying Himself or the Creation, but that is not the same as your scenario 2; but rather an option 3 which you cannot "see".

He has sacrificed nothing because he cannot lose. And if you cannot lose, you cannot risk anything. And if you cannot risk anything...well, then you've earned nothing. You have given nothing up, so you've earned the right to nothing. He hasn't shown us what he's really willing to lose to see that we succeed.

And the biggest test, in my opinion, is if he's willing to lose himself. Because the only people afraid of dying, are the ones who haven't yet lived. I want to see what he's willing to sacrifice. What he's willing to give up. He places so much importance on the title he has given himself...I would love to see him willingly die to give us peace. Only then would I know how much we meant. He can do anything, right? Let him die to give us peace. Let his sacrifice buy us an eternity of happiness. Let him prove he loves us more than he ever loved himself or his throne.

If it took Jesus' death to erase all of our sins, then imagine what "God"s death would do. And I would never suggest it if I didn't always get the impression that "God" comes before all else. It feels like he's the most important thing in his own mind. So the greatest loss I can imagine for him is...his power. His throne. If he could trade all of his power for universal peace, would he?

He's never given me the impression that he values anything more than himself. If he appreciates anything, it's because it affects his place in the universe. It affects his power and control. So what would he give up for peace? That's the ultimate demonstration, as I've said before. That's where my curiosity stems from. What is he willing to lose? How much is he willing to sacrifice? Not avatars, not pawns...himself. His own power, his own life.

What are we worth to him? How much loss and pain are we worth?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


He sacrificed PEACE.

God is peace.

Therefore God sacrificed Himself.

For ever since the moment Lucifer began to think in opposition to God, there has been NO PEACE IN LIFE. And that sacrifice continues on to this day. Look around you, there is NO PEACE IN LIFE. That is what God sacrificed for us, as His other defined characteristic depicts.

God is Love (Agape)

Agape means self sacrificing love for the betterment of others.

God loved us so much He sacrificed himself (peace) and His only Son (Jesus Christ) so that we could be made (created over time) better, in the spiritual image (way of thinking) of God (Elohim).

Looking at the age of mankind only and attempting to understand the totality of God's plan for mankind is an effort in futility. Of course it is obvious your intention in this thread is not to understand God's plan for mankind based on the spirit of your refutes.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

He sacrificed PEACE.

God is peace.

Therefore God sacrificed Himself.

No he didn't. Maybe a tiny piece, but not all of himself. It's much easier to chop off a finger than to point a gun at your own head.

For ever since the moment Lucifer began to think in opposition to God, there has been NO PEACE IN LIFE. And that sacrifice continues on to this day. Look around you, there is NO PEACE IN LIFE. That is what God sacrificed for us, as His other defined characteristic depicts.

I'd love to hear Lucifer's story from his own lips. You know, in the name of fair play.

Agape means self sacrificing love for the betterment of others.

And yet judgment and hellfire is still on the to-do list.

Looking at the age of mankind only and attempting to understand the totality of God's plan for mankind is an effort in futility. Of course it is obvious your intention in this thread is not to understand God's plan for mankind based on the spirit of your refutes.

My intention is to find out the truth behind the fiction.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You are asking a ridiculous and impossible question.

I do not see what there is to discuss. It´s all hypothetical.

It would make similar sense to ask why Scrooge McDuck doesn´t help in the financial crisis.

reply to post by Nightaudit


There is discussion currently taking place in this thread.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well, feel free to discuss it by all means. I just do not really see the point of it.

reply to post by Nightaudit

Well, feel free to discuss it by all means. I just do not really see the point of it.

Read it and see what you think of it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I didn't actually read part 1 (yet), but seeing the question re-posted here, I wanted to point out, to those whom you say called your question "illogical", that an immortal being, one who lives forever, is almost 100% guaranteed to suffer minor, and then major, injuries.

It's simple statistics: the longer you live, the more inclined you are to experience particular things, both good and bad. If you live for only 1 day then you can only experience a fraction of what someone who lives for 1 week might experience. Likewise, the week's worth of experiences are only a fraction of a month's, and those a fraction of a year's worth of time.

So, you see, if God is immortal, and lives forever, then it is guaranteed that, after enough time has passed, He too would experience pain, loss, amputation, sickness, grief, decay, and eventually even death. Whether or not He "destroyed the Universe" becomes irrelevant in such instances.

If God exists, as something, then there is a somewhere within which His existence occurs—a Universe or otherwise. If God destroys this Universe, but continues to exist within His own space, then He too will eventually perish, and absolutely nothing will remain of what was once His Creation.

The only truly logical, loving option then, would be for God to kill himself to preserve His creations. Otherwise, why did He create anything to begin with?

If God truly didn't care about His creation, as the option of self-preservation would indicate, then He would not have bothered to keep it going for the 4.5 billion years (nearly a quarter of the age of the total Universe) that He has.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


" If God truly didn't care about His creation, as the option of self-preservation would indicate, then He would not have bothered to keep it going for the 4.5 billion years (nearly a quarter of the age of the total Universe) that He has"

what if it's only been five minutes of playtime to him? Someone who cannot lose will never truly know what it is to care.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

what if it's only been five minutes of playtime to him?

Well, then you get into elements of time dilation.

My answer to this would be that God could not actively take part in a reality operating at a slower/faster rate than Himself. He would need to enter the Earth time-stream in order to have any effect on Earth-reality.

In doing so, He would submit Himself to all of the things I outlined in my last post.

Someone who cannot lose will never truly know what it is to care.

I would argue that if He did not care, He would not have done it.

Just as I don't play basketball, because I don't care about basketball. I don't see "chick-flick" films, because I don't care about chick-flick films. If God did create anything, then it automatically assumes He cares enough to take the time to make it. Therefore He would have no choice but to care about it's ultimate fate.

Unless God's an #hole.

In which case I'm all for the option that a jerk-wad God would have no qualms about setting up some dominoes, just to watch them topple. If that were true though, then it wouldn't matter one way or the other what said dick would do: of more importance would be us ignoring His existence in favor of paying attention to things infinitely more deserving of our time than He.



~ Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


And the question is what exactly did he care about?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

And the question is what exactly did he care about?

Well, according to the Bible, God cared about us. In fact, we were His favorites.

So much so, that in the sequel to His testament He sacrifices Himself to us, so that we might be forgiven by Him, for actions He allowed us to do, despite His dislike of them.

I'd like to think it amounts to one of those "it's the thought that counts" moments.

In the end though, there's really only ever three reasons why you would go and lop off a part of yourself, and then give it to someone else:

1) Someone bigger'n you makes you do it.
2) You really, really, really care about them.
3) You're bat# insane.

Seeing as God constantly claims that there are no other gods as great and powerful as He is, and if we're only going off of God's testimony here, then it has to be either choice 2, or choice 3.

Which do you think it is?

~ Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


"Well, according to the Bible, God cared about us. In fact, we were His favorites.

So much so, that in the sequel to His testament He sacrifices Himself to us, so that we might be forgiven by Him, for actions He allowed us to do, despite His dislike of them"

Jesus is alive and well, or so I'm told. That doesn't count as sacrifice as he didn't actually lose anything. Never in his existence has he actually lost anything. The thing with omnipotence is it fails to teach you emotional value. You don't get mad or sad or happy or anything because you never actually have to try. If you never have the risk of failing, you never learn anything. If you never lose, you've never proven yourself worthy of leading. Even more important than how we handle victory is how we handle failure.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You're presupposing that the Christian philosophers are correct, of course. That God is omnipotent, omniscient, and purely benevolent. If you judge Him by His own testament though... well... all three of those kind of go out the window. What you discover is that God is a petty, jealous, and wrathful deity; who can be tricked, fooled, lied to, and deceived, and who also cannot compete against iron chariots.

I contend that God can learn plenty from His actions, and that He is entirely lead by emotions, over reason/rationale. The trouble is, He's still a young brat. Maybe in another thousand years He'll hit maturity, and learn His place (or lack-there-of) in the cosmos.

Question still remains: does He really love us, or is He just insane?

As for sacrifice, it all feeds back into the persecution complex Christians seem to develop like a plague. The more martyrs, the merrier. If Christians die left and right for their faith, it just feeds that endless, hollow hole of need which a life lived for Jesus creates inside of them all.

I, tend to think what Jesus did was just another analogue to the Rites of Spring—a feat performed much more impressively by figures like Osiris, Persephone, Oðin, or Iðuna—but good luck getting any Christian to admit that Jesus' vacation wasn't a sacrifice.

~ Scribe

There is only God and God creates the illusion of separateness. He first creates the word. The word always appears presently in presence but the word says something like 'tomorrow' - then the division begins - God imagines a person living tomorrow. That person is created here and now (in presence as presence) and believed in. God believes in you as a separate person and worries about you in time.
The person who lives in time does not exist - only this moment exists and there are around 7 billion dreams happening in presence.

The true sacrifice is when the person realizes that he does not actually exist - he dies but in reality, in truth, he never did exist. One returns to the source that it never left, one realizes that it was just a dream of separation.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

You're presupposing that the Christian philosophers are correct, of course. That God is omnipotent, omniscient, and purely benevolent. If you judge Him by His own testament though... well... all three of those kind of go out the window. What you discover is that God is a petty, jealous, and wrathful deity; who can be tricked, fooled, lied to, and deceived, and who also cannot compete against iron chariots.

You are an unorthodox Christian. Many Christians would deny you as a legitimate follower of Jesus.

I contend that God can learn plenty from His actions, and that He is entirely lead by emotions, over reason/rationale. The trouble is, He's still a young brat. Maybe in another thousand years He'll hit maturity, and learn His place (or lack-there-of) in the cosmos.

Would you sell your soul to a child who has demonstrated neither worthiness or understanding of what it is to be a leader? Someone who possesses no concept of the complexities inherent in ruling an entire universe, but is entirely absorbed in what they themselves want from such a relationship?

I would not.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


That's not an answer. That's just muddled rhetoric with mysticism thrown in for good measure.