Let's Talk About True Sacrifice: Part 2

In Part 1 of this topic, I posed a question that would test the limits of the great and beloved deity our nation cherishes so much. But rather than testing the physical capabilities of a supposedly omnipotent god, I tested the moral capacities therein:

Let's say "God" has two choices:

1. Destroy himself to preserve the universe. His death would invoke an eternity of peace and prosperity for all living creatures throughout the universe. In destroying himself, he would never again be able to exist in any form. His only remaining traces would be his creations.

2. Destroy the universe to preserve his own existence. The continued existence of the universe would weaken him until he could no longer do anything but enjoy the agonized slumber of an old man suffering perpetual degeneration, for as long as he also exists. Should he destroy the universe, he would be unable to create a new one.

The responses, much to my amusement, were unsurprisingly obstinate and aversive. The overwhelming majority of participants were reluctant to even consider the idea that an immortal being could destroy itself (which, incidentally, stands testament to my theories regarding the appeal of divinity) or that its creations could pose any sort of threat to its existence.

In reading the responses, I was provided with a clarity that helped me formulate the precise conclusion I had been searching for in creating that thread. As such, I am posting this in order to provide my insights to all who are interested.

It seems the crux of the matter is that, within the Christian universe, their creator is considered to be eternal and therefore incapable of being destroyed. Not only does this put a cap on the omnipotent nature of said deity, it also implies that this deity is capable of creating something that it itself does not possess - mortality.

In the history of the universe, we have seen not a single example of something creating its own opposite. That is to say, no creation in scientific study has ever contradicted the nature of its creator without a third party influence. To do so would defy the laws of the universe. An attribute must come from somewhere, so where did mortality come from? No one has answered this question, to my knowledge. But let's continue.

In essence, one piece of infinity is still infinity. The fact that "God" can apparently create something finite despite being utterly infinite is the same as saying that water can spontaneously burst into flame, or that zero can be divided. A basic nature cannot be altered without interference. Omnipresence would theoretically imply that all of existence contains the same nature as that which is omnipresent, unless an equally powerful force were equally intermingled with the omnipresent force. My basic point is that "God" has proven himself to be a paradox, as there are certain lines even he will not cross, for in order to cross them, he must answer to the rules of logic...and quite simply, his nature is illogical.

log·ic
noun ˈlä-jik

Definition of LOGIC

a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

So for those of you saying my question was illogical, that is because your belief system is dependent on illogic but has been labeled as logic for faith's sake. Faith, the suspension of reason for emotional security. As a direct result, all else becomes illogical because to admit that anything else is logical is to admit that your religious premise is flawed to the extreme.

Hence, the definition of "cognitive dissonance". I rest my case.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I like the thought you put into this. The problem I have with your ideas is this, I don't think that an all powerful creator would or has to subject himself to the laws the "fish bowl" that he designs for his creation to inhabit.

I think he has more choices than we do concerning his existence.
Consider the thought that there are many more universes or realities that have totally different physical properties that what we observe. After all why would and all powerful creator be satisfied with one universe?
What do you think?

reply to post by ALLDRAFT

I like the thought you put into this. The problem I have with your ideas is this, I don't think that an all powerful creator would or has to subject himself to the laws the "fish bowl" that he designs for his creation to inhabit.

Thank you. I do try. Yes, I've thought of that. But what happens when you throw a burning log into a lake? Either the water will becomes explosively unstable, or the flames do. Either way, something is going to suffer for the contact of two extreme natures. Gray is produced by alternative black and white at a level so minute that no one can distinguish between the two. But at the most basic level, they are distinct. In fact, any secondary color is produced that way. No two contrasting qualities can inhabit the same space at the same time.

This means that "God" cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If he was, the universe would be torn apart by the conflict of housing black and white in the exact same spot.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I think the problem with your point is that Christians believe in an eternal soul so they really are immortal. The Goddess creator I believe in is immortal and she created immortal beings who keep coming back just like she could. Even in Christianity, their god came back partially through the avatar of Jesus. Jesus certainly wasn't what you would call immortal but his soul was eternal, just like the concept of a deity.

So it's actually very logical to believe in the immortality of a god or goddess because we did inherit that trait. As did almost all of nature. Yearly.

What annoys me most about this thread, and the logic in it, limited by only seeing in a certain way, not by stepping outside of the box on what a universe is, on what a soul is, what is time, what is size, even ideas on what God represents in Infinity, and that I'm not even sure Ets are in agreement. Universe could be seen as simply, metaphorically, as an infinite inwards television set, or dream lab, infinite frequency realms and you project a tiny part of your imagination in without memories to join the ongoing film and see if you can make a difference in it and overcome any flaws in yourself, wherein a trillion years in the set is a nano second back home. Just a metaphor. We could be conversely a beautiful flower on the beach back home, Beyond all "universes" or a grain of sand on the beach, infinity within and without.

But anyway, what annoys me is this: thread needs you to be in tiny boxes to follow along on the premise, instead of wide open exploration of all that could be, and yet your avatar is incredibly interesting, and infinity with infinities byond doesnt quite relate to boxes, does it. The thread is at odds with wonderful avatar!

Also God, definition please. Because I can't confess to having this. I don't want to bear false testimony against Jesus, without absolute proof, and seen with Love, this message is Love and helping others and the way back home. Yet am aware of massive coding to negative things, by the elite in the concrete understanding of the religion and that the entire bible is metaphor really. But also reflected in a concrete. All other religions have heavy control element and wars coded within as well. They seem like heavy duty traps to me. However, the beauty and spiritual journey of humans who search for the Divine and for the Love of God/Goodness is Universal.

So I don't walk away from seeing the Love in things/religions and using discernment but rejecting any harm. I never buy the whole thing. And I suggest those in mystery schools and various occult beliefs also use discernement and never buy the whole thing as well, and forgo all ritual contracts, never participate in giving your free will away.

My short cut to it is this: God is Goodness/Love, to be specific there exists both in terms of people/souls and in terms of a Great Spirit between them on "higher" levels, levels of Love and Peace and Goodness, a concept of, the Highest Love and Goodness in existence, and even if I pray in a Christian way, so as not to dishonor the Love there and bear false testimony against the story of Christ, the DEFAULT IS whatever the truth is, beyond my human ability to not understand fully and wishing to avoid every trap, and wishing to see all people freed and healed in existence.

But sacrifice is to me, an annnuki, draconian and dark side concept in the bible and out of it. I believe very good loving Beings have come to free us, Immanuel, God/Goodness with us, here and now as well as then, but I don't believe they came to sacrifice themselves. Simply that they may have forseen they would be murdered and yet whenever dark side karma loving gnostic negatives murder someone, who is good, they show all their beliefs and universal laws that they think give them the right to run a slave system, up for the lies they are, for you can never put a good person to death if karma is true. But sacrifice is a dark side thing to me.

reply to post by Cuervo

I think the problem with your point is that Christians believe in an eternal soul so they really are immortal. The Goddess creator I believe in is immortal and she created immortal beings who keep coming back just like she could. Even in Christianity, their god came back partially through the avatar of Jesus. Jesus certainly wasn't what you would call immortal but his soul was eternal, just like the concept of a deity.

Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. This is a law of the known universe, so I have no contention with an immortal soul.

So it's actually very logical to believe in the immortality of a god or goddess because we did inherit that trait. As did almost all of nature. Yearly.

I can think of numerous trees in my area that will never again grow leaves. However, according to the Christian belief, there is such a thing as permanent death. All you have to do is reject the god of the Bible.

With that said, do you have anything to say in response to that fact that he apparently can create a polar opposite without possessing any semblance of a polar nature in the first place? That is to say, how does he create something finite out of something infinite, and how does he create something dark out of something light? He is everywhere, is he not?

Any way you slice it, "God" is not nearly as powerful as his acolytes claims. It is physically and logically impossible. Either he exists with limitations, or he does not exist at all.

You think that we need someone perfect to look up to. I think we need someone imperfect to look up to. Someone who can show us that it's alright to be flawed, that what really matters more than being all-powerful or all-knowing is how to do the best with what you've got. Showing us everything we're not is pointless. Showing us everything we can be in this life...that's something worth doing. Not being in debt to anything, not having to measure up to anything...just doing the best with what we have and are. Failing is okay. Giving up is not.

Nothing is perfect. But perfection doesn't guarantee happiness. It only guarantees simplicity. And simple is not always better.

Originally posted by ALLDRAFT
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

I like the thought you put into this. The problem I have with your ideas is this, I don't think that an all powerful creator would or has to subject himself to the laws the "fish bowl" that he designs for his creation to inhabit.

I think he has more choices than we do concerning his existence.
Consider the thought that there are many more universes or realities that have totally different physical properties that what we observe. After all why would and all powerful creator be satisfied with one universe?
What do you think?

This! But we still don't know what God is. For infinity doesnt put a cap or boundary on anything, thus a defined One would be one of infinite Ones. However the Spirit of Love and Peace between those Infinite Ones would truly be Infinite and Eternal. But in a sense I give up on trying to say or define fully, while in a low frequency existence without memories, what the Highest Love and Goodness is, just that, its not the smiting and murder in the religions.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

This means that "God" cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If he was, the universe would be torn apart by the conflict of housing black and white in the exact same spot.

Well to me, since this is a recording, each moment is infinite, and change bumps the real of film ahead, so it hangs in "space" forever, or metaphorically speaking, earth is a dusty old dvd on the shelf.

And time is different as its perceptional, there is no time. We're standing still to higher ups, those outside the universe, the creators of it, we'd be like a manga or comic, whereas to ET, like in the movie cloud atlas, they could pull up the recording like a movie.

Yet again, there is No Time, so truly even letting go of the concept of God for a moment, Extra Universals, ie. Creators Beyond, would be omnipotent, omniscient and could be omnipresent if they wished, for they're the computer programmers, and can project in any time they please.

And that is that level, if we speak of the Spirit of Love and Peace uniting of of them like Fibre Optics, well then....

I'm also aware if I'm saying God is the Love between all souls that this may make God into the created not creator and therefore use it as an allegory only for something beyond that exists, where I believe we're all connected like Fibre Optics via a Divine Beyond us on the Highest Levels, though have no words for this and its simply Beyond understanding at this level in regards to infinity itself.

Though God would not have a body but could appear in form if He/She wished to as Soul/Spirit is real and made of consciousness and a subtle form of matter/energy. Just dont know if God can be One in Infinity so don't hand that one over to God.

But the Higher ups who code the system and dna or any ET that could claim to create this world and life is not something I would ever call God and if that is how life spreads in the universe, then they would just be performing a function given them to perform or that they choose to perform out of many possible activities to do.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Thanks for taking another swing at this, it does clarify things somewhat. I'm reluctant to say anything, for I know adjensen will be here momentarily to do an outstanding job. But, as you can't see my fear and trembling, I'll take a preliminary shot at it.

It seems the crux of the matter is that, within the Christian universe, their creator is considered to be eternal and therefore incapable of being destroyed. Not only does this put a cap on the omnipotent nature of said deity, it also implies that this deity is capable of creating something that it itself does not possess - mortality.

I can create something that flies, or survives in a vacuum or fire or underwater. I can create something that has no life, even though I do. I can create something I do not possess.

In the history of the universe, we have seen not a single example of something creating its own opposite. That is to say, no creation in scientific study has ever contradicted the nature of its creator without a third party influence.

Ahhh, "contradicting the nature of" That's a different test.

An attribute must come from somewhere, so where did mortality come from? No one has answered this question, to my knowledge.

Two possible answers. Both God and human bodies have life. Humans' life is shorter. Is that a contradiction? Not to mention human souls which share eternity. Second, the traditional answer is almost a cliche, I'm sure you've heard it hundreds of times. God did not create mortality, it came about as a corruption of immortality caused by Satan, and made possible by the Garden. You may not like either answer, but your question has been answered.

Omnipresence would theoretically imply that all of existence contains the same nature as that which is omnipresent, unless an equally powerful force were equally intermingled with the omnipresent force.

I have a magnet. In the same magnet there is iron matter and magnetic force. Iron does not have the same nature as magnetism.

and quite simply, his nature is illogical.

I'm going to need a little more before I can accept that. A better argument, perhaps?

So for those of you saying my question was illogical, that is because your belief system is dependent on illogic but has been labeled as logic for faith's sake.

That's not defensible. It is simply assuming what you want to prove. Given the initial premises of the believer, the rules of logic state that your question is illogical.

Faith, the suspension of reason for emotional security.

Faulty assumption. Rather faith, because it's believed to be true. People keep their faith while tortured to attain "emotional security?"

This means that "God" cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If he was, the universe would be torn apart by the conflict of housing black and white in the exact same spot.

Two material objects can not occupy the same spot under the laws of physics as we know them. God isn't material.

You've got some interesting ideas that were worth the exploring. But if you've rested your case, I think you're resting it unproven and unmade.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I can think of numerous trees in my area that will never again grow leaves. However, according to the Christian belief, there is such a thing as permanent death. All you have to do is reject the god of the Bible.

Trees are like hair on Earth's head. She grows them back. And when she finally gets eaten by the sun, she will reform as another planet just as we do. From the microcosm to the macrocosm, we all recycle and have the unifying theme of an eternal nature.

And as far as the Christian "permanent death", I always thought people like you and I go to their hell to live in torment for eternity. At least, that's what many Christians tell me, heh heh.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
With that said, do you have anything to say in response to that fact that he apparently can create a polar opposite without possessing any semblance of a polar nature in the first place? That is to say, how does he create something finite out of something infinite, and how does he create something dark out of something light? He is everywhere, is he not?

I still don't think it's the opposite. Look no further than the Yin-Yang to contemplate how that works.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Any way you slice it, "God" is not nearly as powerful as his acolytes claims. It is physically and logically impossible. Either he exists with limitations, or he does not exist at all.

Even the Christian bible shows moments of non-omnipotence. How about the Garden of Eden when he's walking around looking for Adam and Eve? Why didn't he know where they were already? This happens in the bible a lot. Eternal does not mean he has no limitations. The deities I acknowledge almost all have their quirks. It's a good thing.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
You think that we need someone perfect to look up to. I think we need someone imperfect to look up to. Someone who can show us that it's alright to be flawed, that what really matters more than being all-powerful or all-knowing is how to do the best with what you've got. Showing us everything we're not is pointless. Showing us everything we can be in this life...that's something worth doing. Not being in debt to anything, not having to measure up to anything...just doing the best with what we have and are. Failing is okay. Giving up is not.

I agree. Before the Aryan/Dravidian priest class gave rise to religions like Christianity and Hinduism, gods and goddesses were very human. They had flaws and all possessed personalities. Christianity wanted an "all good" god that could never be wrong so they even justify the many cases of genocide since he can do no wrong. Because he is "all good", they had to invent an "all evil" one too, which is what Satan is. From a pagan perspective, The Christian god and Satan would make great aspects to create one whole god that is dynamic.

According to Christian belief there is a soul death?

Um....according to some deonimations who literally or otherwise believe they may take out of context biblical passages while ignoring others, there are some fundamentalists who think nonsense like this, and some gnostics too, like in the gospel of Judas which I was horrified to read recently, also there are ideas of, people sleeping until the trumpet call, not being immortal souls. The very same bible they claim they are authorities on, also refutes these beliefs in other passages, but they try to interpret those things metaphorically in order to maintain literal and concrete interpretations of their favorite passages.

The majority Christian on earth is Catholic, and I was raised Catholic, the Church of Rome that went back to the Council where the bible was formated, centuries after Christ, and they don't believe in soul death, and until one of their so called saints managed to dominate the Church's view many centuries after Christ, they did not even believe in a permanent hell.

Judaic faith does not, and in fact in Judaic belief there are many bodies of belief, and sects, some where mystical such as the Kabbala, or Nazarenes, and some where concrete athiests, who believed in LAW for its own sake but no souls, like Sadducees, a very negative belief by the way, and amongst the Pharisees many believed in reincarnation and many did not.

But most early Christians, the ones directly following the life of Christ, believed in reincarnation and ghosts, and that life was a school of progression.

So defining Christians by a minority group that has emerged in recent years in this world is weird to me.

reply to post by charles1952

I can create something that flies, or survives in a vacuum or fire or underwater. I can create something that has no life, even though I do. I can create something I do not possess.

Are you saying "God" is human?

Two possible answers. Both God and human bodies have life. Humans' life is shorter. Is that a contradiction? Not to mention human souls which share eternity. Second, the traditional answer is almost a cliche, I'm sure you've heard it hundreds of times. God did not create mortality, it came about as a corruption of immortality caused by Satan, and made possible by the Garden. You may not like either answer, but your question has been answered.

There were a million ways to prevent the partaking of the fruit, but there's only one way it could have succeeded. He knew it would happen, he could easily have stopped it. But he didn't. He could have set the movie on pause, rearranged everything, removed the tree, wiped their memories, replaced the memories, and set it on play again. If "God" didn't want it to happen, it never would have happened. You don't just let your enemy walk in the front door, and you don't just put the one forbidden object in plain sight and clear reach of your children. That's some horrible parenting right there.

So really, he did everything he could to ensure they partook of the fruit without actually revealing his part. But it's clear that the precautions were awfully lax for being so easily taken care of. "God" is partially to blame for that little mishap, perhaps entirely to blame.

There's a lot of questions you appear to have missed while examining the official story there. A curious oversight, considering asking inane questions and hunting every possible herring, no matter the color, is what ATS'ers do.

I have a magnet. In the same magnet there is iron matter and magnetic force. Iron does not have the same nature as magnetism.

But the potential is there.

That's not defensible. It is simply assuming what you want to prove. Given the initial premises of the believer, the rules of logic state that your question is illogical.

The initial premises of the believer require the suspension of traditional logic, so your conclusion in that regard is foolish but unsurprising.

Faulty assumption. Rather faith, because it's believed to be true. People keep their faith while tortured to attain "emotional security?"

Well, sure. It gives them a sense of meaning. They feel it's better to die with a purpose than live without hope.

Two material objects can not occupy the same spot under the laws of physics as we know them. God isn't material.

Then what is he? In the mathematical equations formulated by astrologists, physicists and geologists, where does your god fit into the general scheme of rationale that explains the patterns behind this universe?

reply to post by Cuervo


You clearly are not a traditional Christian. You surely admit, then, that there are many times when you must pick up the slack for your god(s) and produce your own miracles? You must essentially pick up a few slots and be your own god?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I love both parts 1 and 2~ Very enjoyable.... I didn't post because I was entralled by the responses... I'm non-demoninational but in my own search for a god I have come to this conclusion.

If we were infact created by a god and all we have left is remnants of that which was, where did they go? Most answers from this point spawn so many different paths it's dizzy thinking about. Me though, I believe they entered what would be considered the life field they created and entered "the game" for themselves, thus they are still everlasting only in mortal form. And this is where we get the soul that never dies it just transforms to a new state of being upon death. What a price to pay to ensure your creation has an immortal soul.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Cuervo

 

You clearly are not a traditional Christian. You surely admit, then, that there are many times when you must pick up the slack for your god(s) and produce your own miracles? You must essentially pick up a few slots and be your own god?

edit on 12-4-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I'm not a Christian at all. Producing our own miracles is what we are supposed to do. If I try to curry favor from a particular deity, it's only to request blessings to make my own craft works more effective. The biggest difference between a witch like me and a Christian is that people of the Abrahamic faiths place intermediaries between their god and themselves and are not allowed to practice their own divinity as it is considered "evil" or "of the devil".

I very much believe we are created in our creators' images which means we must, in turn, create and be magical in all aspects of our lives. The deities of the world are very much human in a philosophical sense. The relationship I have with my patron goddesses is a very personal and literal one that would not be allowed in a priest/clergy construct that is so prevalent today.

Fortunately, people are seeing through that and finding "god" on their own terms. I imagine you are one of those people. If so... be patient and give others their space since their "failings" or "faults" are part of what made you come to the blissful conclusions you possess. You should be thanking these people for giving you perspective. I know I do.

reply to post by Cuervo


I can't imagine how I missed the Horned God in your avatar and the Goddess references in your posts. I apologize for that. For the most part, I agree with your post.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You have a wonderful name and avatar, so I'm just curious what you are expressing by asking these questions?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Dear AfterInfinty,

I absolutely agree with you that ATSers ask questions and hunt every possible herring, that's a very good thing and I praised you for doing it. But the purpose of herring hunting and question asking is to find truth.

Just in case I've been posting too many quotes in blocks (I've been criticized for that), I'll try paraphrasing our discussion.

***One of your points was that God could not create something not in his nature. The fact that humans can do it, shouldn't lead you to believe that God is human, but that God can at least do what humans can. There is no problem with His creation of things that don't share His characteristics completely. Besides, if you believe he is limited in that way, you would have to believe that everything in Nature is omnipresent, omni-everything else. That is observably false, so God can produce limited things.

***I agree with you that God knew the fruit would be eaten. But knowing something will happen and wanting it to happen are entirely different, don't confuse them. I know that someone will be killed with fireworks, do I want that to happen?

Certainly God could have set things up so the fruit was never eaten. He could have set things up so there were no wars, no theft, no husband would ever say a harsh word to his wife. If you could perform brain surgery on your wife or child so that they could never do anything you disapproved of, always obeyed you, and said "I love you," every twenty minutes, would you? All their love and obedience would be completely meaningless and wothless.

***The magnetic example was given to show that two different natures in the same object, matter and force. Having two different natures doesn't make the universe explode.

***An initial premise is, in itself, illogical? No, you have to use an earlier logical analysis to prove that it is illogical. There is no way to prove the initial premise "God exists" is illogical. And I haven't seen, here or anywhere, a logical proof that that premise is false. If it could be shown, Atheists would be marching in celebration. His characteristics have been logically deduced, and I understand that you and others are criticizing that proof, but not successfully.

You're asking me where God fits into mathematical equations formulated by Scientists to describe patterns they see around them? First, tell me how much love weighs, or how many acres are covered by hope, or what color trust is.

With respect,
Charles1952

Also if a negative group laid seige to souls to lower their Love and Equality and programmed them from cradle to grave to react and suppress/harm one another, and "poisoned" the universe, what would the Extra Universals, the Creators and God do about this?

Destroy them?

Or is something else going on, for example, is this a school? And a recording that hangs on the shelf like a dusty old video, of something that already took place long ago. Because we are infinite parts of infinity, we already have in No Time, all the steps of our journey contained within our memory including this step.

Now many ideas could come out of this. This could be a tough movie we entered in to really grind our nose into how injustice hurts, and that no matter what the outcome was for this cycle, ie. even if the universe imploded, everyone would learn the lessons in the end when they woke up, even those who played bad guys. That is one idea.

Another would be, that there is always Intervention, and that its very interactive, so the outcome could change to highly positive and upgrade if more than half the people tip the balance that way by yearning for Equality, Joy, Happiness, Peace and Love to be in all their doings. The outcome could be naturally positive.

One could see the outcome as irrelevent and only trying to do their best each day to rid themselves of weaknesses and flaws that allow the greed and domination of others to take place in this world and seek to instill love each day. They know they are here to learn skills.

Like Bruce Lee says here, that he is not ready yet, for he still wants to WIN, and its only when you no longer care about Win/Lose, that you truly win, you can become Obi Wan and drop your sword and ascend, grow bigger, for your Love encompasses the child who would harm you, so you become a true adult, who would never harm a child. Its only in being one with Your Soul, Family and God, the Whole, the "the", that you win, there is need to win.

Love doesnt care about sides or winning, it merely looks for chinks in a persons defensive armor of their beliefs of power and domination or hurt or woundedness, to shine within and attempt to heal.

So what if, this universe was a past recording, but some souls got stuck in it, and other souls enter in to try and get them out, because the stuff the universe is made of is not SOUL. The outline of the coloring book may have to remain the same, like Groundhog Day the movie, but souls can respond differently and be rescued.

Consciousness can be freed no matter what this movie ended like.

We should not be concerned with the outcome but the process.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Clever thread OP, it does cause one to think.

God agrees with your base sentiment regarding true sacrifice.

God is love (agape, self sacrificial love)
God is peace (jerusalem, His mind/spirit is the origin of the way of thinking which results in perpetual peace)

When God began the process of reproducing himself (reproducing His way of thinking in concious beings) through the creation of first the spiritual realm (angelic beings allowed to freely choose how to think), than the physical realm (universe), and finally physical mankind upon it (human beings allowed to freely choose how to think). He knew ahead of time what would result.

By creating concious beings (angels and humans) with the freedom to think differently then himself (all ways of thinking against or apart from God's way leads to pain, suffering, selfishness and death) He was also creating evil.

He is not the source of evil, the individual minds thinking in a manner in opposition to God's way of thinking are the origins of evil thoughts, but by the very creation of free thinking beings, God created evil; by perfect design.

When God's chief angel Lucifer began to think in a different manner than God, he "set" his mind against God's way of life. Angelic beings are spirit beings (mind beings, compossed of thought/spirit), they are immortal (as long as God chooses to sustain them) and therefore are not capible of repentance (chose to think differently) regarding their thoughts which oppose God's.

This is the very reason why mankind was created physical and mortal. Our minds are capible of repentance, because "time" exists in this realm we are subject to, and that dynamic allows for the changing of our thought patterns over "time" (repentance).

So the awesome understanding regarding this revelation is thus:

Evil (a way of thinking that opposes God's way) is needed in order to create God's way of thinking in mortal physical mankind.

Like a child learning to live, the best teaching method sometimes is allowing the child to "learn the hard way" that your rules are there for the child's own good. A child that touches a hot stove once, will not want to touch it a second time. The exact same method is used by God for our physical lives. Our first life (the physical life you enjoy in the age you live in on Earth) is given for us to choose freely our own personal way of thinking (our belief of what is right and what is wrong). So that we would experience a world full of pain, suffering, selfishness and death (all the things which come from choosing to think in a manner opposed to God's) by the design of billions of individual human minds, each creating the life they freely choose to create, by the means they freely choose to incorporate.

This age, the age of mankind's self rule is given to mankind to teach them the greatest lesson in all life:

"God's way of thinking leads to love, joy, peace; and my way of thinking (created by my own reason and logic) leads to pain, suffering and death."

This is us burning our hands on the hot stove in order to fully understand this all important lesson "the hard way", so that we will understand the fullness of what this means via experience.

God has a plan for every human being that has ever lived or died on Earth, to bring this understanding to them in His perfect timing. For most, after the next 1000 years have been completed, you will be ressurrected to physical life a second time, this is the second life, of which the second death is tied to in Revelation.

After the Earth has had 1000 years of living God's way of life upon it, under the authority of the Kingdom of God (144,000 additional beings "born again" as immortal spirit beings, just as Jesus Christ was in 31AD) on Earth; all will be brought back to life (your death is not the end). During which time they will teach mankind the benefits of conviction in God's way of thinking and why it is the only way to create peace among free thinking conciousness.

All mankind will "see" the absolute contrast of the age they died in (this age now) and the age they were born into (God's Kingdom on Earth). They will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their personal way of thinking in this age was wrong and that only God's way of thinking can produce true peace. This is the only way possible for mankind to be created over time in the spiritual image of God (have the character of God, willingly, due to personal conviction in it's absolute proof/truth). Evil is nessisary to teach this lesson.

This is why I say God agrees with your base sentiment... GOD SACRIFICED HIMSELF (God = peace and He sacrificed peace when he created beings with the freedom to choose a way of thinking in opposition to God's) in order to create a family (Elohim) over time in the spiritual image of Himself (Elohim).

God Bless,