Is it possible to be a Christian and a believer in Islam?

Its an interpretation given to prove an already set belief.

And so it is that atheists and agnostics who can read are the Green Team's nightmare.

Now hear this: My personal best guess is that Jesus is not God, so I agree with you on this point. With that out of the way, what does John 20: 17 actually say?

It will not do to pass off Young's self-described "literal" translation as a reliable guide to the underlying Greek, as babloyi hoped he would get away with. You need something like:

interlinearbible.org...

And even that is going to be inadequate taken uncritically, because the story is that Jesus is a Jewish preacher, so he quotes the Hebrew Bible a lot, and doesn't usually say "I'm quoting the Jewish Bible now" when he does so. So, the reader needs to pay attention to that. Moreover, the author of John was especially taken with Ruth, and so whenever Jesus says something from there, John is sure to include it, and even shape the telling of the scene around it.

Oh, speaking of getting things out of the way, just as Luke includes a statement of its human authorship and authorial selection, so does John, at 21: 25, the very end of the Gospel,

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

By the way, Scorpie note that the objective of the Gospel is to describe what Jesus did - not only to quote him, but to describe. So, yes, all of the text counts, not just the quotes.

Anyway, babloyi proposes that the end of John 20: 17 be rendered (Jesus is speaking according to the verse, quotation marks are in the translation):

"Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God."

Even without looking at the source text, we know that that is not literal, because there are no quotation marks in the orginal text. That piece of punctuation hadn't been invented yet. But we know that in an English-language (something else that hadn't been invented yet) translation, there must be quotation marks, because Jesus is speaking. So, we have to decide where they go.

The lack of punctuation in the source that must be provided in the target means that we cannot translate the passage "literally" and also convey the meaning of what is written. We must interpret it, just as a native speaker of the source language needed to interpret it to read it with comprehension when it first appeared.

We know that Jesus is quoting from Jewish scripture in the last few words, Ruth 1: 16, a situationally appropriate allusion. That, then, must be rendered in single quotes within Jesus' overall speech. Accepting the words chosen by Young, and punctuating according to the sense of the scene being translated, we have:

"Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and 'to my God, and to your God.'"

With all respect to adj, while the reference to "my Father and your Father" can be viewed as a valid source of theological information under the revelatory assumptions of your faith, the allusion to Ruth heightens and clarifies the human dimensions of this scene which, in my opinion, is a gem of First Century Hellenistic literature, whether sacred or secular.

The scene isn't about some church's doctrinal needs, it is about a woman encountering a man about to embark on a hero's journey, who has waited especially for her, who must leave beloved friends behind, because the object of his journey is to resume his necessary place in the Universe, as its God.

Jesus, the man, is reluctant to leave. Take away the key allusion, and it is ambiguous whether he is impatient with Mary's detaining him or reluctant to leave her. Add the allusion, and the human meaning becomes as clear as that poignant scene in Ruth to which he alludes.

Good writing is wasted on both teams. Thank God I am an agnostic.
-

reply to post by babloyi

Dude ... Jesus is fully God and fully Human. He was both.
That's what is in Scripture. Quotes for both because He IS both.

The muslims here are cherry picking just the 'Human' quotes.
They are ignoring the quotes that show Him to be God as well.
That fits their agenda to try to disrobe Jesus of His Godhood.
They have to .. or else their religion is shown to be obsolete.
Why follow a guy named Muhammad when you can follow God Himself?
See? Obsolete.

reply to post by DarknStormy

We already know the Jews reject the Trinity. If they didn't .. they'd be Christian.
But ... SO WHAT if they reject the Trinity? The Jewish faith isn't the one that
everyone on the planet should base their religions on ... ya' know??

Side note ... could you provide a link to your off site information?
You posted a quote from it but we can't get to the full document. Thanks.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Again, I ask...

Just stop it. :shk:

You have been shown time and time and time and time and time and time again the exact scripture quotes that do indeed show Jesus to be God Incarnate. You have been told time and time and time and time and time and time again that Jesus is both human and God and that the scripture quotes show Him to be both. These have been given to you on this thread as well as countless others. Either you aren't bothering to read or you are just cherry picking and focusing on what agrees with your agenda. Whatever it is .. just stop.

Originally posted by adjensen
is that it is pointless to say "You Christians are polytheists",

Seriously. What part of ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS or ASPECTS don't they get? I gave the example of a clover leaf. One leaf and yet three leaves. Same/same. One god doesn't mean three gods ... not even close.

Originally posted by logical7
i see almost a pattern in your arguements, whenever it comes to divinity of Jesus pbuh it depends on what he did not say!

Not addressed to me but I'll answer it ...
This statement of yours is not true. It has been shown time and time again ...

John 10:30 - Jesus said "I and the Father are One"

John 8:58 ... "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Jesus claimed the title that God claimed with Moses. He claimed that time multiple times.
John 8:56-58, John 8:24, John 18:4.

Mark 2:1-12 - Jesus heals a paralytic and forgives his sins. Only God forgives sins. We can forgive each other, but when it comes to the sin on the soul, only God can wipe that clean. This is what Jesus did.

John 6:38 ... Jesus Himself says that He came down from Heaven.

When asked during the trial if He was the Son of God .. Jesus answered ...
• "I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
• "Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
• "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)

John 18:33-37 Pontius Pilate asked Jesus if He were a King and Jesus said "You are right in saying I am a king..." and that His Kingdom was not of this world. God's kingdom is not of this world.

John 10:11-18 Jesus claims the title Good Shepherd.
Ezekiel 34:1-16 God claims the title of Shepherd of Israel.

John 5:1-18.- Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Humans weren't supposed to but it was the Jewish belief that God continued to work compassionately on the Sabbath even though they did not. That is what Jesus did.

John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father". That tells it all. That's not human.

Matthew 28-19. Jesus instructed his apostles to baptize and so they were "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" . If they weren't supposed to be baptizing in His name or in the name of the Trinity .. He would have corrected them. He did not 'correct' them.

John 14:10 - Jesus said - "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

Joun 17:5 - Jesus said " And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". Jesus said that He and the Father 'shared glory" before the world was even made. They are One God. Humans don't have God's Glory and certainly didn't do it before the world was made.

Jesus Claims to be God

Bible Verses Jesus Claiming to be God

The Jews themselves say that He was claiming to be God. See the last part of this quote? They wouldn't have said that unless He had been claiming to be God and they knew what His claims were. We don't have quoted everything Jesus said in his lifetime. But this one line gives very good information that He did indeed claim to be God because the Jews didn't like it one bit ...
Jesus Said He is God

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

The ANGELS OF HEAVEN .. who would have known Who God is ... said this ....

“Do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit,” the angel said. “And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people
from their sins” (Matthew 1:20-21).

Jesus .. not born of a human father ... and who will save people from their sins.
ONLY God could do that. Did the angels of heaven lie? They can not lie.
So it must be the truth.

The angels adored Jesus when He was born. They sang praises to God. “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men!” (Luke2:14). Adoration belongs to God alone. The angels couldn't adore anyone but God.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You have been shown time and time and time and time and time and time again the exact scripture quotes that do indeed show Jesus to be God Incarnate. You have been told time and time and time and time and time and time again that Jesus is both human and God and that the scripture quotes show Him to be both. These have been given to you on this thread as well as countless others.

No... you have never posted a single scripture where Jesus himself says "I am God" or "I am fully man and fully God"... those are all Christian inventions and have no basis in the Bible. Such ideas of "both human and God" are completely alien to Jesus' religion.

You just cling on to that one verse where he said "I AM".... in case you didn't know, the "I AM" was an angel that appeared as a burning bush.

Either you aren't bothering to read or you are just cherry picking and focusing on what agrees with your agenda.

Eh? You are the one who cherry picks parts from the Bible that fits your beliefs.

reply to post by FlyersFan


The Old Testament proves that Jesus isn't God and this is information that Christians omit when proving their case. Now I understand some will say "The Old Testamet does't mean jack squat" but if it didn't, why put the account of Jesus after it in the first place? Anyway, heres my proof that Jesus isn't god and that a 3 part god is a cardinal sin.

It starts at Exodus when some information is given about God..

"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)

This is the first contradiction. So going by this, how could any of the disciples witness anything that Jesus done? If they were watching him perform miracles or any other act, they should of died instantly.

The next one also shows that God doesn't take form..

"You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15)

Again, another contradiction of the New Testament.. This is saying that God does not take any form including human form. Now you can believe that jesus was God, I don't really care but the truth of the matter is when we are talking about the eternal God. Everyone's God, he cannot be born and he cannot die. It just is.

I don't need to link up the source, you can find this in the bible but I already linked this earlier in the thread anyway..

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dude .... just look at the looooooooooooong post above this one I'm referencing.
It's all there. You just don't want it to be because it doesn't fit your muslim agenda.
Good luck with that.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)

Which is why God had to take a human face. He couldn't show Himself as He is.
We would die of happiness on seeing Him in all His glory.

"You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15) ... This is saying that God does not take any form including human form.

That isn't saying that God does not take any form EVER. It was just saying that, at that time, He hadn't.

God can do whatever He wants.
Apparently He wanted to be incarnated to show us Himself and how to live.
If you don't want to believe it ... that's your choice.
It seems VERY clear in scripture to me that He certainly did incarnate.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
You just cling on to that one verse where he said "I AM".... in case you didn't know, the "I AM" was an angel that appeared as a burning bush.

NO.

Exodus 3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”

4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

And Moses said, “Here I am.”

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

At first the Angel of the Lord called Moses over. (like a secretary working for the big boss will put the phone call through ... but then hands the phone over to the boss once the connection is made). It is CLEARLY GOD saying "I AM" Once Moses comes over, the angel is not speaking and it is GOD speaking ... 'God called to him from within the bush' ... See that??? That's GOD ...

GOD = I AM
JESUS = Before Moses I AM

Same/same

reply to post by eight bits

By the way, Scorpie note that the objective of the Gospel is to describe what Jesus did - not only to quote him, but to describe. So, yes, all of the text counts, not just the quotes.

Descriptions of what Jesus did are not the same as theological statements that are out of line with Jesus' religion. These can easily be spotted.

Also, Jesus is also described as somebody who submitted to God. Such a man who submits to God cannot be God Himself. Christians will special plead on this to have it both ways.

The question of "was Jesus God?" can be answered by going over the exact words spoken by Jesus. He never claimed to be God, and on the contrary.... referred to God as the One who sent him... the One who is to be worshiped.

reply to post by FlyersFan

At first the Angel of the Lord called Moses over. (like a secretary working for the big boss will put the phone call through ... but then hands the phone over to the boss once the connection is made). It is CLEARLY GOD saying "I AM" Once Moses comes over, the angel is not speaking and it is GOD speaking ... 'God called to him from within the bush' ... See that??? That's GOD ...

I know God was speaking through the angel... but that does not mean it was Jesus.

We read in Acts 7
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’[f] Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.

Nowhere does Stephen refer to the I AM or the burning bush as Jesus...

GOD = I AM
JESUS = Before Moses I AM

So if Jesus = I AM = God.... did Jesus order the genocides in the Old Testament... calling for the killing of infants and old people and women instructing the Israelites to take virgins as prisoners?

Scorpie

Descriptions of what Jesus did are not the same as theological statements that are out of line with Jesus' religion. These can easily be spotted.

The only record we have of "Jesus' religion" is the New Testament. There were many incomaptible flavors of Second Temple Judaism, just as there are many incompatible flavors of modern Rabbinical Judaism.

All four Gospels agree that Jesus used the imagery of his disciples drinking his blood, and the oldest Chrisitan writing we have, from Paul, a Jew and a Pharisee, confirms this. Find me any other Jewish writing, from any time including today which promotes - commands - the human consumption of blood, whether human, animal or divine, symbolic, actual or transubstantiated.

Jesus' religion was not government issue Second Temple Judaism. That's why the Temple authorities killed him, or on Mohammed's theory, borrowed from Basilides of Alexandria, why somebody had to die in Jesus' place. Murder is the sincerest form of criticism. Jesus' religion, whatever it was, wasn't the PTB's religion.

Also, Jesus is also described as somebody who submitted to God. Such a man who submits to God cannot be God Himself. Christians will special plead on this to have it both ways.

As usual, no chapter, no verse, just you testifying for the evangelist. The last time I asked you to put up or shut up, in the Mayam Surah thread, you put it out that the reason why I asked you for chapter and verse is that I don't know the Bible. So, I am not going to fall for your ad hominem BS again. If you don't give chapter and verse, then I will simply ignore your claim.

Just like I'm doing now.

The question of "was Jesus God?" can be answered by going over the exact words spoken by Jesus. He never claimed to be God, and on the contrary.... referred to God as the One who sent him... the One who is to be worshiped.

As you have been told repeatedly, sola scriptura means the whole scripture, not just the parts you want to talk about.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Descriptions of what Jesus did are not the same as theological statements that are out of line with Jesus' religion. These can easily be spotted.

Yes .. the qur'an is full of them. They are out of line with what Jesus said and did.
They are out of line with the historical first hand accounts of the gospels.

Jesus is also described as somebody who submitted to God. Such a man who submits to God cannot be God Himself.

Yes .. He can be. And He is. Jesus came down from Heaven (he said this) and He is showing us how we should behave. We should submit to God. He showed us this by giving the example. That doesn't mean that He is God. His own words say He is.

The question of "was Jesus God?" can be answered by going over the exact words spoken by Jesus.

His exact words. His behavior. Both found in the Bible. Neither found in the fictional stories in the Quran. His words and His behavior say clearly He is God and man. Those who studied under him (apostles) say the same.

He never claimed to be God,

Wrong ... Already showed you the scripture quotes many times.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I know God was speaking through the angel... but that does not mean it was Jesus.

John 10:30 - Jesus said "I and the Father are One"
John 6:38 ... Jesus Himself says that He came down from Heaven.
Jesus is 'I AM" ... God in the burning bush is 'I AM'
Jesus said He and the Father are One and that He came down from Heaven.
So yes .. Jesus, who is One with God, was part of God in the burning bush.
1 + 1 = 2

Nowhere does Stephen refer to the I AM or the burning bush as Jesus...

So? Do you think Stephen somehow trumps the words that came from Jesus Hiimself?

So if Jesus = I AM = God.... did Jesus order the genocides in the Old Testament... calling for the killing of infants and old people and women instructing the Israelites to take virgins as prisoners?

I personally do not believe that Moses was talking to God. But for the sake of the discussion we'll pretend that that He was (since you Muslims and the Jews and most Christians think he was). IF Moses was really talking to God then yes, Jesus being part of God would have been part of all that nastiness. Jesus Himself said that He and the Father were One.

Jesus is the incarnation of the Mercy aspect of God. What you have in the burning bush is a different aspect of God. (If God was really there .. which I don't buy into). But the thing to take away from this is that the Jews believed God was in the burning bush and Jesus claimed the title that God used when God was in the burning bush. This told the Jews that Jesus was claiming to be God.

Remember that the Jews tried to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God -

Jesus Said He is God

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

reply to post by FlyersFan


I find it hilarious that you call the Koran fictional yet you actually believe Jesus was something similar to Superman or something from a Comic book or fairytale

Originally posted by DarknStormy
I find it hilarious that you call the Koran fictional yet you actually believe Jesus was something similar to Superman or something from a Comic book or fairytale

Glad to hear that I bring such merriment to your life.

Qu'ran = total fiction. Ancient stories poorly retold. Got a lot wrong.

Old Testament = lots of myth and lots of ancient stories retold and claimed by the Jews as their own. The 'prophets' stuff is interesting (Daniel, Elijah, Isaiah, etc). But Genesis and Adam and Eve and
Noahs Ark? Naaaaaaaaah.

New Testament = Much more reliable. Documentation from first hand accounts and eyewitness. And .. it provides a MUCH better way of life than the Qu'ran or Old Testament, both of which aren't good for people (IMHO).

reply to post by eight bits

The only record we have of "Jesus' religion" is the New Testament.

Well, in the New Testament, Jesus keeps referring to something called the "law"... its the same "law" we read of in the Old Testament. We also see Jesus refer to OT characters such as Abraham and Moses... and Jesus even reads from the scroll of Isaiah. Its pretty clear that Jesus operated within the framework of the Israelite religion... so there is no point trying to separate Jesus from his Israelite religion... which is referred to in the New Testament....the only record we have of "Jesus' religion"



I said : Also, Jesus is also described as somebody who submitted to God. Such a man who submits to God cannot be God Himself. Christians will special plead on this to have it both ways.

. The last time I asked you to put up or shut up, in the Mayam Surah thread, you put it out that the reason why I asked you for chapter and verse is that I don't know the Bible. So, I am not going to fall for your ad hominem BS again. If you don't give chapter and verse, then I will simply ignore your claim.

I made that remark about you not knowing the Bible because you have demonstrated that your knowledge of the Bible is lacking... it was not in response to anything you said in particular.

The fact that you are asking me for the chapter and verse where Jesus was described as a man who submitted to God.... proves my point that you are indeed ignorant of the Bible. However, it shouldn't be a problem for you as agnostics need not burden themselves with scripture... so why even bother asking me for the verse and chapter?

I am not obliged to tutor agnostic cultural Christians in scriptural basics just to get them up to speed... just so they can continue arguing for sake of arguing without having a real point to make. So either you do your own reading.... or go right ahead and ignore my claim. It makes no difference.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
there is no point trying to separate Jesus from his Israelite religion...

Jesus FULFILLED the Israelite religion. No one separates Him from it ...
The Jewish faith is one of prophecy. He fulfilled that faith. He made it obsolete.

Not to mention the fact that the Jewish expectations of what to expect from
a messiah turned out to be completely wrong. They expected (and wanted) a worldly
messiah who would deliver them from mundane worldly problems. Instead,
God sent a spiritual messiah who would deliver them from sin.