The difficulties of interstellar travel and the implausibility of the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis.

The real question we should be asking is will any of it ever be practical? For example, look at the standard model of particle physics. Other than the electron and photon, which other particle has seen as much widespread application other than those two? Neutrinos have been around for more than 50 years, and yet we have not seen anything practical using neutrinos? Other than some obscure medical applications, there is no reason at all to believe standard model physics will ever lead to any groundbreaking devices that will revolutionize society and space travel. If we can't even use standard model physics for anything practical in space travel, then should we really expect the knowledge of the physics beyond the standard model, which is practically inaccessible, will truly lead to immense practical benefits?

It's an old adage in science that real breakthroughs tend to come from research areas that were originally thought to be of no practical use. Neutrinos are hard to detect, but maybe they are used for interstellar communications as they tend to pass right through matter. Again, more a problem of current technological limitations than anything else.
physicsworld.com...

Also, as others and myself have mentioned, you can travel around the galaxy on spaceships using standard model physics, they would just create a lot of energy to reach velocities at a signficant % of LS

You could also place probes or replicator type machines in the different parts of the galaxy prior to use and use neutrinos, quantum entanglement or regular EM waves to transmit information between them i.e. if the mountain can't come to Mohammed move Mohammed to the mountain.

This all should be within the bounds of feasibility in our future with our current understanding of the standard model.

As I mentioned already, Multiverse theory is not some 'abstraction' that doesn't affect us but if it is true opens up a new revolution in our conception of physics and space.

Would like to add that whatever the process by which matter distorts spacetime, giving rise to what we perceive as gravity, it must be a very low energy process because all matter distorts spacetime without any discernible loss of mass.

Maybe it does require lots of energy to distort spacetime but that energy does not originate from matter. Perhaps that energy is borrowed from the Bulk (multiverse) and matter simply informs the process of applying that energy to distort spacetime.

As John Wheeler said: "Mass tells spacetime how to curve, and spacetime tells mass how to move"

So either mass provides the energy to distort spacetime, in which case it must be a very small amount of energy accessible to humans, or mass borrows the energy from some outside realm, in which case we may be able to do the same.

Once we fully understand the mechanical process by which mass distorts spacetime then we should be able to distort spacetime ourselves in a more strategic and optimised manner.

If you are immortal then ultra fast speeds are not required to travel huge distances. Time is all that is required which to something that can live forever,is not exactly sparse.

reply to post by RockleyG


RockelyG ---Welcome to ATS...some interesting points. The only time a photon powered starship could possibly need extra mass for fuel...would be in dark gaseous clouds in the universe, or on dark alien worlds that block out starlight in the atmosphere --- either by clouds along with darkness after sundown --- or in enclosed spaces.

The fuel needed for those enviroments would probably be some form of duterium atoms, derived from seawater --- that would be the catalyst for the fusion reaction, that creates different colored [bluish white/red-orange] power levels of plasma --- that feeds the photon engine. --- caused by the pressure between two magnetic fields encasing the starship.

Cheers,

Erno

to those who always think the old science fiction becoming today's reality, just answer this :

Where is the flying cars ???

Just because in the past hundreds of years mankind uses horse as primary mover, doesnt mean in the next few hundred years mankind will be travelling in outerspace with no effort..

technology is not be all end all

You know what else was impossible in the 70's?

1. Having the ability to carry a computer around in your pocket
2. Fitting your entire music collection in something the size of a fingernail
3. Video phone calls
4. Accessing your important data from almost anywhere.
5. A world wide network, for anyone to use.
6. Making your own movie in your home.
7. instantly sharing your own videos with people all across the world
8. Getting news instantly seconds after it happens.
9. Playing video games with people outside your living room
10. Electric vehicle that lasts more the a few minutes

reply to post by Diablos

I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be. However, I almost have to assume that any species of intelligent life forms who would care to enter our atmosphere would have surpassed the obvious limitations related to rocket-driven models of travel. If you follow the mindset of species evolution, one would likely have to assume that various species evolved because of various evolutionary requirements and restrictions. If you follow the religious model of things, one could argue that "God" placed the minimal amount of intellectual capabilities into the hands of the various species and then gave them the "tools" to evolve. Either way, it is entirely possible that our very young species is limited in our abilities based on our own perceptions and our own evolutionary model of growth.

Perhaps one could suggest once again that gravitational force is not actually gravitational force, but actually "Centripetal Force". You can demonstrate the effects of Centripetal Force with a very easy demonstration. Place a ball inside a bucket and swing the bucket in a full circle over your head and back down. If the ball were to fall out of the bucket upon reaching the zenith of your swing, this would prove gravity is a unidirectional force with downward intentions. However, the ball stays glued to the bucket if the velocity is high enough.

Very early in my life I noticed the experiment with Centripetal Force indicated something very significant. If I suddenly and abruptly stopped the bucket from spinning, the ball came out of the bucket with tremendous force. I also noticed that reaching inside the bucket to affect the positioning of the ball, whilst the bucket was being spun, was also EXTREMELY difficult. Also keep in mind, if I swung the bucket in the opposite direction, the ball still stayed in place.

Allow your mind to perceive this: Our earth spins at a rate of about 1,040 mph, it also rotates around the sun. Furthermore, the sun spins around our galactic center and our galaxy could perhaps be spinning around a universal center. I won't go further, as I said, I'm not an expert.

All of this Centripetal Force caused by continual rotations could perhaps be causing all of this gravity. My thought is this: without gravity, you would have very little limitations of velocity with matter. I know everyone will say "Okay, but without gravitational pull, matter tends to lose shape a bit"...For the sake of this argument, I will ignore that part for a moment.

Consider this if you will...Perhaps our species has been so focused on reaching inside the bucket whilst it spins, we've forgotten to look outside the bucket. Never mind how difficult it would be to do something if you were inside the spinning bucket with the ball. It may appear impossible/improbable/implausible for us to achieve velocity above light speed because, in essence, we are inside the proverbial bucket. The Centripetal Force that is "Gravity" is holding us very tightly in our own little spot.

I don't think we need to "think outside the box"...I think we may need to think outside the bucket.

Another quick thought...If you built a rocket from inside the spinning bucket and tried to propel yourself away from the ball as fast as you could, you only end up hitting the wall of the bucket. As with our plausible ability to accelerate past the speed of light at this point, our relatively (no pun intended) feeble rockets will invariably always hit a wall.

However, I didn't post this to show the OP was exactly correct. I meant to add something to this...

Ultra-high frequency magnetic interruption can and does break down the resistance caused by Centripetal Force. Place a magnet outside the bucket and a magnet inside the bucket. Every time the magnet inside the bucket passes the magnet outside the bucket, if both magnets have enough "draw", the magnet inside the bucket jumps from wherever it is "resting" to a point where it meets the magnet outside of the bucket.

I think it is entirely possible/plausible and likely we may be able to disperse the draw of Centripetal Force in a manner which allows our resistance inside the bucket to become a non-issue. By containing the sphere of this "magnetic interruption", one could potentially travel freely about within such a device, without much concern for restrictions of velocity.

It is my belief that we are limited only because we say we are. I also believe we may have the potential right now to change our thinking a bit and reach out further into our galactic neighborhood. I personally don't lend much credit to technological views of limitations from the past. After all, you would have been called a nut if you had told people back then that an invisible field surrounds nearly every building in the world and allows people to look other people directly in the eyes when they speak with them from across the globe.

I come late to this extremely antique view of what is possible.
I shall not tarry long here.

Scientific thinking in the public realm definitely stops and starts with Einstein's thinking.
As my signature statements suggest in a sorta code, wings defy gravity which confound humans for so long with a simple, entirely natural process that humans despite their large brains, took too long to appreciate.

It is about the same thing with UFOs. They defy what we can (or could) do by our own hands. What "wings" are required to be UFO-like with similar craft? We would need a device that would shield itself from gravity and in the supreme best case, eliminate its mass. The thought is not hard to conceive even if the technics are obscure to the general public.

So, in this way, we can easily image how the UFOs work and in the same stroke, image how they can travel at very fast velocities around the galaxy. (Do you get it OP, that SOL is not even relevant in the argument?)

reply to post by hyperrman

Very interesting and well thought out post. As you said, we ARE limiting ourself by saying that there is a limit. But i also think that there are other cabals involved that for their own greed dont want to let humanity produce such technology for the time being. I mean, cars that run on hydrogen were invented some years ago, but did you ever hear anything again of them? Don't really want to get into all the conspiracy stuff tho, thats another chapter..

Once again we restrict "them" as in anyone and anything out there has to to adhere our rules, this is backwards thinking what they would and could not travel to Earth due to our own progress and agendas and what not. It's preposterous and even hilarious that we set the mandate for ET's way of travel because of our current understanding and sciences unknown to us even if they are ahead by perhaps millions of years. IT IS POINTLESS POSTULATING! I have no doubt at all there is intelligence that can get here in fact with ease. I believe there has been contact and they set the rules for themselves not us. I also have a strong suspicion that we see them all the time and they are so foreign we do not realize what they are even in our best scientists train of thought. Also they have no reason to chit chat with us, but this is another topic in itself. The craft i have seen on more then one occasion certainly changed my mind of that and I will leave it at that for now.

As for the implausibility that we will unlikely achieve warp speed by a formula. The aforementioned men of science by OP are using the modern day equivalent of the Bedford Level experiment
en.wikipedia.org...


I strongly object , I disagree it is more then possible, it is in our destiny to achieve such science that has yet come to be. Plausibility is all due to ones perception. It does not restrict the laws of the universe to ones belief or lack thereof. I would like to show you a few examples the earth is flat and that the moon can not be conquered that illustrate the same mind set that sees these things implausible even impossible. Because of the science has not been invented or the means can not be measured or detected it is impossible? This always occurs in Science the attempt to disprove what has not be proven to be part of our reality, It is a paradox. Let me put things in to perspective.

The International Flat Earth Research Society and

The Flat Earth Society (also known as the International Flat Earth Society or the International Flat Earth Research Society) is an organization that seeks to further the myth that the Earth is flat instead of an oblate spheroid. The modern organization was founded by Englishman Samuel Shenton in 1956[1] and was later led by Charles K. Johnson, who based the organization in his home in Lancaster, California. The formal society was inactive after Johnson’s death in 2001 but was resurrected in 2004 by its new president Daniel Shenton

Sound familiar?

The myth that the Earth was flat was typical of European ancient cosmologies until about the 4th century BC, when the Ancient Greek philosophers proposed the idea that the Earth was a sphere, or at least rounded in shape.Aristotle was one of the first European thinkers to propose a spherical Earth in 330 BC. By the early Middle Ages, it was widespread knowledge throughout Europe that the Earth was a sphere. Modern hypotheses supporting a flat Earth originated with English inventor Samuel Rowbotham (1816–1884). Based on his incorrect interpretation of experiments on the Bedford Level, Rowbotham published a 16-page pamphlet, called "Zetetic Astronomy", which he later expanded into a 430-page book, Earth Not a Globe, expounding his views. According to Rowbotham's system, the earth is a flat disc centred at the North Pole and bounded along its southern edge by a wall of ice (Antarctica), with the sun and moon 3,000 miles (4,800 km) and the "cosmos" 3,100 miles (5,000 km) above earth.He also published a leaflet entitled "The inconsistency of Modern Astronomy and its Opposition to the Scriptures!!" which argued that the "Bible, alongside our senses, supported the idea that the earth was flat and immovable and this essential truth should not be set aside for a system based solely on human conjecture".

en.wikipedia.org...

Scientifically prominent people, philosophers and scholars of lore going back to Eratosthenes due to interpretation thought the Sun Revolved around the Earth remember? They even convinced people using scientific measurements. Remember most of science is based in theory and always subject to change.. updated always being rewritten. Nothing is etched in stone due to endless possibilities. This is why the apple of science does not fall far from the tree ... religion. What is said to be impossible in science is called a miracle in religions yet they do occur hence ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

The Bizarro World (also known as Htrae) is a fictional planet in the DC comics universe. Introduced in the early 1960s, Htrae is a cube-shaped planet, home to Bizarro and his companions, all of whom were initially Bizarro versions of Superman, Lois Lane and their children. Later, other Bizarros were created to add to the population including Wonderzarro, Bizarro Flash, "the Yellow Lantern", Bizarro-Kltpzyxm and Batzarro, the World's Worst Detective.

It is even possible that there is a cube shaped planet out there beyond us, an alternate universe filled with our evil twins. Prove me wrong by using what limited resources you have at your disposal such as our neighboring planets all being spheres.... what we can only see and detect "for now" You see, we have NO WAY OF KNOWING. So it is always possible. Truth is stranger then fiction. Yes possible , plausible is irrelevant and rendered moot in a universe filled with endless possibilities. The earth is not flat and we can go to the moon.


Naysayers say no more

there was a time when the science was developed to prove the "implausible " to be incorrect in fact plausible, Galileo was shunned before it was proven to be fact and ridiculed as well and forced to retract his "theories" thanks to the Catholic Church. Even some Astronauts did not 100% believe the earth was a perfect sphere until seeing it from afar for thyself. Perception can be a powerful thing even in Science and it's restraints in academia has the counter productive habit of ignoring possibilities due to it's lack of understanding the grand scheme of things . The scope of the universe and its ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES. Science is a wonderful tool but it isonly good as it is limited to our current understanding in how to use it. To say light speed is implausible undermines the mission statement of science, we must try and if we learn it does not work we will likely create a new technology out of it. Some of the best things came from our blunders. Naysayers are only a disservice.


Remember when we could not go to the moon, ya know, the factors of solar radiation ect. When this film was made in 1902 rocket science was non existent ( besides the chinese bottle rockets ) people could not even fathom what would happen in 60 years.




They thought steam would be our propulsion , they were doing it wrong. 40 something years later Germany changed things. Changed a lot of things. Science is constantly being rewritten, always subject to change. Einstein himself was and is is not above being undone. I bet the farm Miguel Alcubierre and his ilk are are wrong, but if these men had Swamp Land for sale they would have buyers regardless.

So you see, remember what we have accomplished, and our greatest leaps and bounds have been overcome and started as Ideas. Space travel is a work in progress, we are still in our infancy and still taking baby steps painfully at 60 years plus now make no mistake. An infant cant just get up and run a triathlon it has to learn to walk and grow in to an adult. We are still getting around by horse and buggy in this solar system. We had a lot of set backs, we also made a lot of progress but it is far from what I imagined 2013 would be like after watching a space Odyssey as a child.

We use to live here , on flat earth and again we cant go to the moon according to Scientists of that era scoffed at a science that had not yet come to be. And it will come to be, and our descendants will have the same argument of maybe maybe not perhaps. I hope we get past this pity mind set though.



IN SCIENCE THERE ARE ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES IN THIS UNIVERSE!


end of rant[

reply to post by DarthFazer

It is even possible that there is a cube shaped planet out there beyond us, an alternate universe filled with our evil twins. Prove me wrong by using what limited resources you have at your disposal such as our neighboring planets all being spheres....

It is also possible that I am right all the time and never wrong in which case you are incorrect all the time. This is the universe we live in. Get over it.

Originally posted by DarthFazer

Very Roger Dean.

Assuming mind uploading works, and I think there is no reason why it wouldnt work in principle, then interstellar travel could simply involve beaming a laser signal between stars at the speed of light. This will require much less time and energy than transferring matter, and from the point of view of the traveler it will be instantaneous. All this while not breaking any of known laws of physics.

They all have problems true. Of course, if you manage to find a coast parallax dimension in a higher inter dimensional region then you can travel much faster. Or in English; Take a dimension that is higher then yours (preferably in factors of two so not counting time the most preferred one would be either 6 or 9) and push your vessel (or car, computer, teacup) into that dimension and you only need to travel a little bit and then push yourself out of that dimension.

Thou you need a mighty inter dimensional navigation for it. I remember spaceships materializing in rock or worse. Ah, but that was a long time ago. Still, I guess for humans it is rather difficult to go inter dimensional. Hmm, focus less on 4 dimensional and more on 6 you'll see it will be easier to understand since your all three dimensional (opnce more, not counting time).

reply to post by Diablos


Whether the constraints on interstellar travel can be overcome or not, the ETH is completely implausible on statistical grounds alone.

Given the huge number of star systems in our small galaxy, apparently half if not more with planets, finding us would be statistically improbable even for an interstellar alien race.

If one could travel from one star to the next instantly, then spend five minutes analyzing the planetary system there, after two thousand (Earth) years, one would not have visited even half of the systems in the galaxy.

How would they even know to look here?

The common answer is that they could pick up our electromagnetic signals (TV, radio, etc.) But that's simply not the case, due to attenuation of the signal, unless we decide to send out beacon signals which would be a very stupid idea, analgous to game animals yelling at us "Come and get us!"

Harte

Originally posted by ManInAsia
It's an old adage in science that real breakthroughs tend to come from research areas that were originally thought to be of no practical use. Neutrinos are hard to detect, but maybe they are used for interstellar communications as they tend to pass right through matter. Again, more a problem of current technological limitations than anything else.
physicsworld.com...

Unless you plan to wait years to get a response (and this is an interstellar message to the nearest star), then neutrinos clearly won't work since they don't travel faster than light. Communication by interstellar means through a superior method to EM waves is simply not possible.

Originally posted by ManInAsiaAlso, as others and myself have mentioned, you can travel around the galaxy on spaceships using standard model physics, they would just create a lot of energy to reach velocities at a signficant % of LS

It's possible, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will happen. Read the first post on why relativistic space travel is a fantasy.

Originally posted by ManInAsiaYou could also place probes or replicator type machines in the different parts of the galaxy prior to use and use neutrinos, quantum entanglement or regular EM waves to transmit information between them i.e. if the mountain can't come to Mohammed move Mohammed to the mountain.

Well, you could do that with EM waves (neutrino communication is totally impractical though). And even then, all methods are limited by the ultimate speed limit of the universe. Thus, there could be thousands to tens of thousands of years in wait time just so these probes can communicate, and by then they surely will be long obsolete.

Originally posted by ManInAsiaAs I mentioned already, Multiverse theory is not some 'abstraction' that doesn't affect us but if it is true opens up a new revolution in our conception of physics and space.

edit on 21-3-2013 by ManInAsia because: (no reason given)

Except that all of the hypotheses beyond the standard model show that it is exactly that; an abstraction. It is not something of practical interest in the slightest. Of course, practicality is not the goal of these attempts to understand reality, but there is absolutely no scientific reason why any of these ideas will ever lead to anything practical and revolutionary in the future.

Oh man, you are really sounding like the dude who said there was only a need for one computer in the world

There are many concepts you just write off because of your own biases.
For instance 'the probes would be obsolete or out of date'? Why? According to whose timeline and lifespan? Time is all relative as you know well.

As for neutrino communication being impractical? Why? Current technological limitations?

Multiverse theory is not abstract, it touches on the core of how universes are formed and made and whether they are infinite and whether they can interact and whether we could form new universes artificially. They have REAL consequences to their understanding that COULD result in revolutions in physics.

This should be fairly obvious as it's just a step up the value chain again isn't it. From 3D > Spacetime > Universe/Multiverse

If this guy lived 200 years ago, he would be saying instant communication with people half way across the world is impossible because you cant write a letter fast enough.

"There is a universal speed limit on how fast you can write and deliver those letters so getting an answer immediately is impossible. *derp* *derp*"

If just one report of a real flying extraterrestrial aircraft out of the 1000+ reports since records have been kept are real then it does not mater who says what about FTL speed( figured by distance traveled) for some civilization has it figured out already..... which would make the nay Sayers full of important.....nothing..... and wrong as many before them.

Many test pilots were killed and aircraft lost due to compressibility and control reversal when approaching the speed of sound which was a barrier that many swore would never be breached. The Bell X-1 and Yeager proved then wrong.

No, FTL speed is not the same as air travel, but, If we ever figure out a sure fire way of decreasing and objects mass through some type of force field to the point of negative mass then 17,000 mph 90 degree turns when just out joy riding would just be a normal thing to do while eating your crew meal.

I do know this: if we do not get off this planet as a race then everything written and all the knowledge gained by the human race will have been for nothing....... for one day our egg/planet will be at a point of we hatch or all die; Have faith our destiny will be written amongst the stars; just sorry I won't be around to see it.

Originally posted by 727Sky

No, FTL speed is not the same as air travel, but, If we ever figure out a sure fire way of decreasing and objects mass through some type of force field to the point of negative mass then 17,000 mph 90 degree turns when just out joy riding would just be a normal thing to do while eating your crew meal.

Suppose it were possible to do this, i.e. modify inertia. It would make intercontinental air and cargo traffic faster and cheaper. Military aircraft would have immense capability. ICBM's could be stupendously scary, hide them in a large garage.

It still would be impossible to travel FTL, and even near light-speed travel would be extraordinarily hazardous requiring immense additional breakthroughs. Just the blueshifted radiation would be insanely dangerous, random hydrogen atoms would induce massive biological damage, and a tiny bit of dust could obliterate the spacecraft.