Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

from a thread I started called Desperate for the love of God.

I find whenever I'm desperate for the love of God that I find it, however subtle it might be. Come to think of it, it's mostly at those times when we're at the end of our rope and we must begin to trust with faith and belief, and even if we let go and let God we find to our dismay that beneath us was already constructed, in anticipation, a catchnet like that below the high wire in the circus, and then we do yet another facepalm and laugh some more at all our prior ignorance, which by comparison to the love of God, touched in or touched by however slightly, is rendered an utter absurdity, enough comedic material at one's own expense to last a lifetime, and oh the joy and liberation of no longer having to take one's self seriously any longer, while taking God much more seriously henceforth as a child of a loving God with God at one's side.

One, utterly agonizing and painful loss (loss of an outmoded ego-projection) and a reaching out for the hand of God, and even if you miss you land in him.

I spent most of my life running away from God.

But here's the funny part. What you resist only persists..! LOL

God finds us in eternity, but we have to have the gumption and the audacity to reach out for him, and by being desperate for his love, actually find it as the buried treasure.

"Life is a Mighty Joke. He who knows this can hardly be understood by others. He who does not know it finds himself in a state of delusion. He may ponder over this problem day and night, but will find himself incapable of knowing it. Why? People take life seriously, and God lightly; whereas we must take God seriously, and take life lightly. Then, we know that we always were the same and will ever remain the same.......the Originator of this joke. This knowledge is not acheived by reasoning.
But it is the knowledge of experience."

~ Meher Baba

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I don't know why, but it's so funny!

That's what I was trying to express.

Warning: Cannot be achieved by reason alone.

That's funny too in and of itself.

Originally posted by bb23108 So the real question is, what is Reality? Not how did we get here, who made this, what was the plan, etc., because that is already based on various presumptions about existence that may or may not be true. Thus the conundrum of these kinds of arguments in terms of Creator God vs. Science, etc.

Perhaps that is the question/answer posited, to at least question this insane world of derisiveness, division; even within religious contingient/camps of all things. What I find startling is that spiritualism and science cannot get to the same dinner table, cocktail party on time (oh there is the problem of where the host is/missing locked the entry gate). Science attempts to explain through the material physics, Spirituality has no access to an electron microscope or a telescopic lens 20x20 ft diameter. No one seems to understand the majick behind human thought; its potencial never ever to be measured with instruments. It did manage to create everything above simple matter form and alter/change it. Where is the credit given or any allocade for this brilliance innate to the humanbeing, which is spiritual in nature yet a plodding explorer of the material world as well? I almost want to say a masochistic search for nothing here, got to wait for the death experience for all to be revealed. In that case Mass Suicides Forthcoming.

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by Druscilla

 

The Spirit of the Serpent of Death speaks through you.

You have had the experience and yet remain alive? What exactly does it express speakwise and in what language are its utterances. Why the serpent for the 'death iconology', the SNAKE has suffered enough. Spirit of Death can take any form; you choose your nemisis. You speak death and scream to others of your malformed hatred of yourself Godlover or not; picking on a someone calling itself Druscilla (one of Cinderellas evil stepsisters) shame on her for identifying herself to a Walt character.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bb23108

 

Yes but it's a sign, in our very midst of THE reflection itself. You still don't really get it I don't think because you don't like the idea of "God" speaking through the creation to the created, but it's a reminder you see of what you're talking about, so it validates you're position in the most astonishing and unexpected way.

We are not the reflection. God is the reflection. We speak for God not the other way around period. We just kind of sort of lack a valid spokesperson to Stand UP on a cartoon cardboard soapbox and proclaim "WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO SAY!" adlibing to the hostile crowd "We have no leader!" God has no vocal chords, honestly it is an electro magnetic monster form that needs caging.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

God isn't an "electromagnetic monster" that needs caging, don't be absurd, and neither are we caged. It was always to be freedom beginning with the end in mind from the beginning, a shared freedom while standing on the shared unconditioned ground of all being and becoming, like coming into an inheritance we did not work for prepared for us from the time before time when the world was first conceived. We were made by consciousness for consciousness to BE consciousness because of love. To then turn around and lash out at the electromagnetic spectrum for making this experience possible is utterly absurd! You see you can even get a reaction out of ME you little rascal you!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I don't know why, but it's so funny!

That's what I was trying to express.
Warning: Cannot be achieved by reason alone.
That's funny too in and of itself.

It is funny. It is true. Easterners get the grand joke, hindi, buddists, shinto (look at the sincereity behind the puppydog expression wide eye psychosis). This is a game; I play it for fun, so do they and there lies the grand overall truth that encompasses all faiths. Some of us are a little better at playing with the definitions of God than defining absolutes. Poker game now Westerner against the East (not texas holdum) 5 card Stud.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


This Christian right here get's it too (points to himself as if to no one in particular).

It's Good News, like a running free invitation freely available to anyone who doesn't have to first go back to inspect his newly purchased five yoke of oxen (so to speak).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

God isn't an "electromagnetic monster" that needs caging, don't be absurd, and neither are we caged. It was always to be freedom beginning with the end in mind from the beginning, a shared freedom while standing on the shared unconditioned ground of all being and becoming, like coming into an inheritance we did not work for prepared for us from the time before time when the world was first conceived. We were made by consciousness for consciousness to BE consciousness because of love. To then turn around and lash out at the electromagnetic spectrum for making this experience possible is utterly absurd! You see you can even get a reaction out of ME you little rascal you!

You are correct about the inheritance factor. Instead of not being able to murder the parent for the payoff (cant find its location), the child is lazy or not interested (premium payment of eternal life not high enough I guess). Freedom comes into play/awareness only if it is given up as a potencial tool/implement to change the rules. Im not sure that was the intent by our (always) good natured creator, lunch tomorrow at 12;00 sharp. Still certain that God only has consciousness because we tell IT that it is so, contantly reminding it (very tiresome). Love factor is a force energy just as magnetism is, called sometimes 'loosh' the thing is so illusive: the sought after LIFEFORCE. Really should not have been hidden in such lame terminology. "Optimus Prime Simian" or "Who IS The Carpenter(s)". I know 4 letters is betters to remembers.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

This Christian right here get's it too (points to himself as if to no one in particular).
It's Good News, like a running free invitation freely available to anyone who doesn't have to first go back to inspect his newly purchased five yoke of oxen (so to speak).

Bank gives you some elemental gnostic belief chips (invisable of course). The east is easy, it does not appear to question any potencial dogma or flaw in its creators thought pattern; is that because a truth there is more potent than Christianity or is it a product of DNA cells remembered souls in body that trumps the newer Western Thought? They do realize we all share the same creator; the messenger is different but all in all the same diatribe. Not as though its an arm wrestling contest but I wonder about the sanity of monksters living in isolation (maybe the purile nature will bring about a manefestation of Siddhartha).

Sometimes you really ring the bell vethumanbeing, but at this point I think you've lost me..

And I enjoy a metaphor and allegory as much as the next guy and I like reading between the lines between the lines.

An interesting aside, compliments of Murgatroid - life after death NDE

Ian was night diving off the island of Mauritius when he was stung multiple times by Box Jellyfish, which are among the most venomous creatures in the world. His testimony relates how he clung to life while getting to hospital, was declared clinically dead soon afterwards, and how during this time he had an encounter with Jesus, which radically changed the direction of his life. Link

Set aside any bias and try to examine his story with an open and discerning mind and heart to see if it's true.

This one just seemed rather compelling to me so I thought I'd share it and it's still in line with the questions posed in the OP of this thread.

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Dimethyltryptamine aka "Spirit Molecule"

When ingested, '___' acts as a psychedelic drug. Depending on the dose and method of administration, its subjective effects can range from short-lived milder psychedelic states to powerful immersive experiences; these are often described as a total loss of connection to conventional reality with the encounter of ineffable spiritual/alien realms.

Research indicates that this chemical compound is produced naturally by the human brain during birth, sleep, and death. Near-death experiences would provide a plausible case of '___' release as the body prepares for the final stages of total shut down. As such, it is entirely possible that all of the experiences related in the above videos can be attributed to chemically-induced hallucinations. While such hallucinations can result in a very productive shift in perspective, the results do not lend any significant degree of credence to the veracity of the encounter.

Note: for some reason, the letters D-M-T (the initials for the chemical compound described in the link) are consistently modified as though censored by the forum code. The " '__' " you see up there is what the code has evidently substituted as a suitable replacement for what I can only guess to be a taboo term. Interesting.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I'm not sure that explains it, or the nature of the experience he had. When he was in the Ambulance when his mother appeared in a vision over him, she apparently, who was resident in New Zealand and a person of faith, saw a vision of his face along with a voice telling her that he was near death and in need of prayer..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Sometimes you really ring the bell vethumanbeing, but at this point I think you've lost me..
And I enjoy a metaphor and allegory as much as the next guy and I like reading between the lines between the lines.

You are exhibiting signs of Gnostic thought.
The circumtances of monastic cloistering interest me, the purpose beyond (obvious) the aborrance or dread of anything carnal (physical intimacy) Bizarre rituals of silence and fear/mistrust of the opposite sex.
Reincarnation is as easy a concept to Eastern thought as for you to understand 'Juicy Fruit' gum is not to be swallowed as a food source.
They have thousands of years on Christianity and do not need a physical martyr figurehead (as much as Id like Mohammed etc. to reappear "SURPRISE").
Jamb a bunch of concepts in very few words hidden away like an origami paperfold sculpture. Sometimes the complex thought form comes across better as Roans (rule).
Simple is good, but always better in codex.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You can believe what you do about NDE's and OBE's.

Until you have one, your answer ---
that they are produced by chemicals
in the brain----
suit you just fine.

It is a shallow explaination
at best and a thin shield at worst
to explain NDE + OBE.

You like allegories.

Not having an NDE and using a chemical to explain it is like
you are in first grade math and I who have had an
NDE am in College Calculus or
Analytical Geometry.

I cannot explain it to you so you can understand it.

I hope you have one (NDE)+(OBE) sooner rather than later.

One can explain it to someone who has an OPEN mind.
However no one can understand it for you.
And in your case it cannot even be explained to you.

reply to post by slugger9787

I think from that man's experience (if it's to be accepted as valid) we can conclude that the spirit never dies, that God is the light fantastic, and is all loving and all good and in whom there is no darkness and no evil. Nevertheless God is also merciful and kind, and fair, asking that we simply own up to our faults and errors, and forgive as we are forgiven. It would make sense too that any infinite eternal Godhead of light (spread out upon the creation) would need to uphold the highest standards of justice, goodness and love, being incorruptible, and is therefore a God who makes no compromise with and has no part in or with evil. I realize and understand how such absolutes might scare some of us, but how can it be any other way, and if in our hearts there is love then we needn't fear the eternal darkness of self aware non-existence that is hell.

It is interesting that he was shown a "new creation" with the light spread out on everything, but before choosing it as a paradise not of this world, his mother appears and he's called back to our world - but was there really a new creation or it THIS one the one and only where the foundation of heaven on earth must eventually be laid in the fullness of time, because there's always more work of love to do here, to bring that about.

God told him twice that upon making his return that he needed to see things in a whole new light. I think that's significant.

It's our faulty perception in our ignorance that's what's wrong with the world - without which we would perceive a new creation with the light fantastic spread out upon the creation.

"The kingdom of heaven is spread out upon the earth but men do not see it." (children see it).

reply to post by NewAgeMan

It's our faulty perception in our ignorance that's what's wrong with the world - without which we would perceive a new creation with the light fantastic spread out upon the creation.

I disagree with the statement that it is our faulty perception.

What is wrong with the world is that basic human nature is fallen and evil.

Unless we actively and daily address and "treat" our sinful, fallen nature we will,
like water, seek our own level.

There are what are called fallen angels which were beings with a free will, who had grasped the
perspective of heavenly brilliant light, and pride (one of the seven deadly sins and the root of all evil and sin) trumped the perspective and paradigm and based on following self will,
and not
Gods will, the section of angels were cast out of heaven.

So just changing everyone on earth perspective whit education, to treat ignorance, will not work.

The only paradise on earth was in the Garden of Eden when Man and woman were following Gods will.
When they followed self will, they too were cast out into the cold cruel world.

reply to post by slugger9787

What is wrong with the world is that basic human nature is fallen and evil.

Unless we actively and daily address and "treat" our sinful, fallen nature we will,
like water, seek our own level.

You say that like you have the understanding and authority to tell us that something is good or evil, when really what you mean is that you yourself feel something is good or evil. Do not transfigure your personal perceptions into a factual quality which can be objectively applied as per the system you yourself feel should be implemented. You are human - you are no less susceptible to bias than the rest of us, and as such, you should have no more responsibility for determining the absolute nature of an object or person than the rest of us.

Before you observe the dirt of our ways, amend the filth of your own.

reply to post by slugger9787

What you're talking about it an abuse of freedom where the Garden of Eden is a perfect allegory. And we were never in a position to judge good and evil, so the moment that this duality of judgement entered in, separation from God occurred.

The goal then isn't to try to be good in order not to be bad, but to BE good for goodness' sake and in goodness and love we are set free to freely love where there's still one tree (of duality of good and evil) that we are best to leave alone.

I still see a struggle in this, against pride, and sin, lust, and all the rest, which is at cause in the sorrow and suffering of the world, and I suppose a real man is someone who's willing to accept responsibility, repent and then make a better go of it.

This might appear to some to represent a limitation or constraint upon our freedom, but it's not really when goodness and love are the only things that make any sense and bring about real and lasting enjoyment.

So by removing ignorance, that's what I mean, to get at the root and source of the place from which sin arises.

It's funny in a way the negative reaction and revulsion that occurs in response to the idea of absolute goodness, righteousness and love.. where people wish to claim the absolute right to sin as they will without constraint or limitation - that's hilarious, and the epitome of ignorance.