Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You are correct about the knowledge that I am speaking from.

You are incorrect when you say that I feel.
I do not feel, as in sad hurt angry afraid ashamed or glad, about the subject, Instead I think and know.

I separate very distinctly and rationally my thoughts from my feelings.

I know when something is good or evil.

It is not a feeling, as described above. it is a thought.

You yourself know as well if something is good or evil.

There are certain absolutes in our world.
Absolute objective universal truths.

For example math, gravity (physics), logic, morals, good/evil.

Compliments of EnochWasRight (worthy of consideration)

That's funny and beautiful when you really think of it, and essential (that God isn't present on a throne wielding power).

Thank you God for hiding, and I'm serious. (and yes I'm aware how the Atheist will jump on this like a flea to a dogs tail).

But it's true and humorous, loving, beautiful and magnificent, that God is the living light of the universe, and isn't proven, isn't in your face, only evidenced, and thus requiring at least a degree of faith however small (the size of a mere mustardseed is sufficient to get ball rolling).

That's funny, as a joke told to the atheist, really funny. That is if but a mere inkling is permitted according to the proper and appropriate definition of atheism, which it is.

You don't have to "get it" either, for the truth to remain both hidden and revealed and thus a joke that's still coming at you whether you got it the first time or not namely that you really are a child of a loving God standing as it were next to the very Godhead atop a mountain of cosmic evolutionary history and surely it can't all have been for nought, so there's still a Great Work to perform within and among us, and that Great Work is YOU as you really and truly are as a beloved spiritual (and thus psychological) child of God (there's no other way to describe it in terms of origins and intentions) growing, both evolving and involving.

Or would you prefer instead (to maintain at all cost the no-God position) reduce yourself to a mere thing with all thoughts and experiences occurring exclusively inside your scull (or at best within a self-imposed isolation chamber of your own subjection interpretations i.e.: opinions and closely held "reality tunnel") in the context and framework a purely materialist-monist "reality" without intent or purpose - not conscious i.e.: dead. Your own consciousness then is an isolate consciousness, adrift on a lawless sea of chaos, in a meaningless existence except what little meaning you're able to assign it, but of itself meaningless, and purposeless, aimless, directionless, devoid of intentionality as an "arrow of progress". A fluke. A "coincidence". And then you die. And that could be true, or just maybe it doesn't get the last word (non existence).


I think we live in a living Universe, not a dead one. It has a purpose, and it's not blind as a bat (as we can see from the moon-earth-sun configuration evidence). In fact it appears to have "seen" or envisioned this very life even from the very beginning of time and space (or through whatever creation since it's fully informed in eternity) with mankind intended, and a Great Work already completed and with another one yet to perform, through us, in partnership (communion) with God as the living Spirit of Infinite Intelligence and Infinite Light and Love and Creativity and VISION my oh my what vision and foresight by anticipation! - that is if the by-design position is adopted as the only possible way to interpret the data (See Page 19 for more) whether scientifically OR meaningfully (as symbol and allegory).


Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan

So how does God "hide"? In light. As in the NDE video previously posted, God is clothed with light, a light that is also spread out upon the creation as the manifest reflection of God as the Living Light of Life.

Brilliant Disguise: Light, Matter and the Zero-Point Field

What makes this more than just speculation is that Haisch's colleague derived Newton's law of motion F=M/A from the same set of equations Haisch was working with in relation to the ZPF.

Looks like all the evidence, even including a lack of absolute in your face PROOF is all stacking up in favor of God.

I invite a comprehensive response from any and all atheists (other than just afterinfinity who's really an agnostic). Thank you.

For reference - here's the substance of the original OP.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
There's been a lot of confusion over this issue.

I myself think that in regards to the notion of the weight of evidence i.e.: everything, that there's rather more in favor of God than that there is no God..

It just seems exceedingly presumptuous to me the position of the atheist. I mean like how does he/she KNOW there's no God?

Might not everything including our own selves be evidence of an intelligent creative agency?

And what if I could come along and demonstrate superintelligent design in the creation of our earth-moon-sun system, would that suffice?

Would anything satisfy the atheist?

Don't get me wrong, freedom rules and people are free to think whatever they like obviously, and to each his own as they say, but both sides of this debate can't be right, or can they?

Anyway, our motto is to "deny ignorance" and I am committed to that concept which could also be translated as being committed to truth and reality at all cost except at the cost of truth and reality itself.

Furthermore, it's either meaningless and purposeless, or meaningful and intentional. Is life absurd and meaningless, or by virtue of our own existence and inclusion is it of the highest meaning and significance imaginable?

I just don't see how the former can be the conclusion of a logical and reasonable mind. And how nihilistic such a conclusion - which to me appears not in alignment with life and of life meeting life, but death including death of the spirit of life, which to me is joyful, humorous, playful, creative and loving..

On what basis can a person conclude that there's no God? That's ridiculous isn't it?

Furthermore, how can I as a rational and scientifically minded person, and philosopher (one who inquires into truth) be put to ridicule by atheists who presume to know better?

I'd like to see their argument, which cannot have anything to do with disproving a negative, no it must show and prove that the universe and life including ourselves is NOT the product of an intelligent designer but that instead is an absolutely random happenstance and coincidence with the universe itself and life itself being completely impersonal or just a "thing".

But I warn you that if this is your argument, evidence might come flying in capable of smacking you upside the head with a reason and a logic you can't deny or defy.

Let's get to it let's have this debate...

Let me start by asking the atheist -- How do you KNOW there's no God?

For additional clarification, because there was some confusion early on with respect to the TRUE definition of atheism, what we arrived at was something along these lines.

Originally posted by stormson

Originally posted by idmonster

Originally posted by stormson
look at the words-

An atheist (and I know this has been said over and over on this thread...but I feel it bears repeating) view is not that there is no god(s)..(that would be an anti-theist) it is that there is no evidence in support of god(s)

negative.

words have meaning.

atheist- noun a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods: (oxford)

antitheist- Antitheism (sometimes anti-theism) is active opposition to theism. An antitheist is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "One opposed to belief in the existence of a god." (wiki)

agnostic- noun a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. (oxford)

as you can see, your definition of atheist fits agnostic. dont blame me, but the dictionary.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by stormson

 

So then, an atheist, by proper definition (Oxford) is one who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods, regardless and in spite of any evidence whether for or against the existence of God, as differentiated from an agnostic, who takes no position, or an anti-theist who is opposed to or against belief in the existence of God.

Then of course there's the theist who believes or who has faith in God in the complete absence of any evidence or, who presumes to have God, as a certain conception, neatly wrapped up in a personal nutshell however "almighty" his version of God may be (for reasons he cannot explain or define or at best explain by the circular reasoning of "it just is because it's the word of God" i.e.: because I believe what I've been told to believe and accept).

I tell you if there IS a God then "he" must be laughing his ass (or whatever) off!

Just to clarify, for the purpose of this thread and argument, I only wish to posit evidence to show the existence of God, not to define God in any way, shape or form, because I don't want to get into any trouble here, amid the obvious predicaments and absurdities.

Best Regards,

NAM

< < crickets > >

I do hereby humbly declare this debate and thread, complete.

"It, is, finished."


Best Regards, and God Bless (it's happening anyway by virtue of your inclusion),

NAM

reply to post by AfterInfinity


E.L.F.
Everyone Lives Forever.
As an intact,
uniquely created
soul/spirit.

If you think you created yourself then
I ask what was the reason?

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

E.L.F.
Everyone Lives Forever.
As an intact,
uniquely created
soul/spirit.

If you think you created yourself then
I ask what was the reason?

You stated it in the five lines above the two lines below the above adding 8 carriage return one taking 2 spaces. Why would one have to question an absolute no ifs are required or demanded.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
< < crickets > >

I do hereby humbly declare this debate and thread, complete.

"It, is, finished."


Best Regards, and God Bless (it's happening anyway by virtue of your inclusion),

NAM

Uh oh, not the famous last thread Title of (the unmentionable banned one) hum...OK I get the joke, Jesus.

reply to post by slugger9787

E.L.F.
Everyone Lives Forever.
As an intact,
uniquely created
soul/spirit.

If you think you created yourself then
I ask what was the reason?

Because the only other option is destroying myself. And I gotta tell ya, I'm not too big on suicide or anything like that. I think I can still bring joy to the world, in some fashion or another. Won't know until I try, right? And I could live for a hundred years and still not try everything.

Whether there is an afterlife or not, it shouldn't affect what you do here. You are still here, along with everyone else, and a decent person will be decent no matter what. If being a kind and compassionate human being meant you would be eternally condemned to hellfire, how many people would waste their time on a thankless job like empathy and kindness? Having a heart doesn't get the bills paid. Acting like a shark and stepping on everyone else to get ahead in life...that's what pays off.

But many time, your sacrifices determine who you are, just as much as any house or car ore Swiss bank account or company you may own. What you are willing to give up to see a better tomorrow. Those are the things that create you. Every decision you make today leaves its mark on who you will be tomorrow. You have to be willing to give before you can begin to take.

That goes for everyone. Even gods.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

< < crickets > >

I do hereby humbly declare this debate and thread, complete.

"It, is, finished."


Best Regards, and God Bless (it's happening anyway by virtue of your inclusion),

NAM

Judging by the last few responses, I would have to veto that motion. This thread is still alive.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Something's happened to you. You've lost your meanness! I'm very happy for you and it must be a relief to you also. Welcome to the land of the living and the living loving light of the world, may you walked in and enjoy the light of life. Amen.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
< < crickets > >

I do hereby humbly declare this debate and thread, complete.

"It, is, finished."


Best Regards, and God Bless (it's happening anyway by virtue of your inclusion),

NAM

LOL! Don't you know that is a sure-fire way of keeping the thread going?

I've enjoyed it and thanks again.

For still further consideration and investigative inquiry, I would like to hereby extend to everyone, believer and non alike to the thread The Day of the Cross. . Thank you in advance for your interest and your participation whether here or anywhere and we all have something of value to contribute each in our own way which is something that I firmly believe that Christianity, understood properly, really celebrates and raises high.

God Bless,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Out of the frying pan and into the fire, huh? Figures.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Out of the frying pan and into the fire, huh? Figures.

Would you care to elaborate?

It's more like out of the trap and into the domain of unconstrained and unfettered freedom as the freedom to freely love.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Would you care to elaborate?

It's more like out of the trap and into the domain of unconstrained and unfettered freedom as the freedom to freely love.

I'm saying that if speculation and conjecture were drugs, you'd be a junkie.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Stop judging and either put forth something with substance as part of a well reasoned argument or don't even bother saying anything at all.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


The biggest philosophy of an atheist is they do not want to admit there is an intelligence greater than themselves.
Pride and arrogance.

The agnostic is just not sure there is an intelligence greater than themselves.