Enlightenment and God. (biblical view)

reply to post by windword

According to the story, Adam was created to do a job.

I agree with you. What was the Job?

The L ord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. (Genesis 2:15 NLT)

Mans first achievement was pretty cool categorizing Gods animal kingdom. Impressive.

So the L ord God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one. (Genesis 2:19 NLT)

Man chose a name, he was not handed a clipboard and told to write down these names. God allows a human to do a task that God could have done in seconds, A good CEO coaches and trains their employees by delegating important tasks, that will equip them for their position.

Adam was created a fully formed adult who never experienced a mother's love, felt a hug, fell down and got a boo boo, learned to walk or got a scolding from dad.

Yah the expectations were high for this one, Gods love was sufficient in all areas but knew man would be better equipped to perform his job with help. A woman's touch was no doubt one of Gods best ideas.

What dad wouldn't want his children to desire to be like him? What father doesn't teach his child to emulate him? What kind of a father punishes his son's first mistake with exile and death? The God of Genesis sounds like a corporate CEO that "likes to fire people", not a father.

Like you said Adam was an adult, he knew and understood Gods Command about the tree. He decided to ignore God. This wasn't a kid forgetting to put the dishes away.

An adult can be trained and coached too, see my CEO comment above.

God did not fire them, when someone is fired they no longer are part of the plan for that company. He provides a suitable covering so they can get out of their shame, and get back to work. Gods goal was for them to fill the earth.
Even in their imperfect state they were still used by God.

And the L ord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife. (Genesis 3:21 NLT)

That's odd behavior for an evil CEO. Sound like he was a good CEO,
And forgave them. But since they jumped gods plan, he now had to keep them out of the garden, and send them to work the earth with their limited knowledge. God made it tougher because he knows humility combats pride. This was part of His plan to redeem them so they could properly take from the tree of life.

They hid out of shame and fear. I don't see where you get pride from shame and fear.

Some external source on pride and shame.

Pride promotes self. Shame demotes self. But, both are increases to self-centeredness. To demote self is not to decrease self. It is simply a different, though negative, self-centered view of self.

Pride encourages self to believe that personal performance can overcome unpleasant negative feelings of shame.

As I said before, Adam's soul was fractured. He was literally divided in half by "God". He was no longer whole and he was distracted by the projection of his feminine persona in Eve. If Adam & Eve perceived their imperfection, it was the imperfection in which they were created.

Having a hard time grasping this concept. Feminine persona in Eve?

Don't question me, question the Bible. The Bible says that the fruit of the tree endowed them the "knowledge of good and evil." "They ate of the tree and their eyes were opened."

There eyes were open to what? What did they see, who closed their eyes.
Lets say that the serpent had blinded them with his deception, the beauty of the tree and how it looked good to eat. But when they ate it their eyes were open, they wer no longer being deceived. They saw that they were no longer perfect. They made a poor decision.
They knew their position in the garden was jeopardized.

There is absolutely no indication in the text of Genesis that says that "God" intended to teach them about good and evil, in his own way at his own time. There was a tree for that. Period. They were told not to eat from it. They were barred from the "Tree of Life" that they were previously allowed to eat from. That was "God's" decision to drive them away. It wasn't a cause and effect thing.
He gets them back to work, now more on the job training but still the work that God commanded.

If you look at the bible as a whole you will see one of Gods characteristics is a patient teacher. God is also seen as a God of order, he must have planned the progress of the humans. He has a specific order of things. So why wouldn't God plan to have both trees revealed to them at a specified time.

reply to post by Observationalist


You are simply reading things into the story that simply are not there. You are projecting human attributes and to "God" that aren't in there either.

If you look at the bible as a whole you will see one of Gods characteristics is a patient teacher. God is also seen as a God of order, he must have planned the progress of the humans. He has a specific order of things. So why wouldn't God plan to have both trees revealed to them at a specified time.

The God of the Old Testament wasn't a patient teacher. He was a ruthless, jealous, wrathful, tyrant that commanded the murder of entire populations.

John 3
New International Version (NIV)

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

Jesus appeared as a Spiritual Master able to transmit the Spirit Light of the Divine to his closest followers. That he was their Spiritual Master is indicated in the Bible by the disciples calling him Master.

The disciples communed with the Divine through Jesus' transmission of the Divine Spirit Light which Jesus was One with. Jesus' confession that he and the Father are one, is the confession of his profound sacrifice of self into God - no separation - only One Person. So he testifies that He is One with God.

This process of Spirit Transmission of the Divine Spirit Light is the ancient "secret" or esoteric way of how all great spirit-transmission Masters taught those who recognized the realizers' enlightenment. The ancient means has always been through surrender of separate self to the Divine through the Spiritual Master.

Jesus also confessed that his great mission was to awaken others to this same Truth that communion with the Divine Spirit Light of God is freedom, non-separation, real Love.

John 17:20-26
New International Version (NIV)

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[a] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Jesus walked the earth as Spiritual Master, not as some separate God-Person that was going to magically cure everyone's problems but through Blessing true aspirants with a profound understanding of their fundamental non-separation from God via initiating them into esoteric practices regarding the Spirit Breath and Light to awaken them to communion with the Divine.

Such was his authority and mastery over the conditional realms of earth and heaven, and his message is essentially an esoteric message relative to God as the Divine Light above, and how to rightly prepare the body-mind for this reception of his Blessing Light through fully loving God and neighbor.

reply to post by windword

We both have a different perspective on God.
From your experience and the reading of the Scriptures you have formed the opinion that God is bad.

From my experience and reading of the scripture, I have found that God is good.

You have your reasons for seeing God as a bad CEO or a tyrant oppressing man every step of the way. I see God as a good father, leading and teaching his creation.

Not to distract anymore for this thread I will give you my short answer why I see God as good.

I discovered through the reading of the new testament the life of Jesus, and how He became "the way" for Adam and Eve to re-connect with God in the garden and properly partake of the tree of life. I see everything connecting in the Bible, from Adam and Eve to Jesus. The Bible has a list of redemption stories, preparing mankind for the salvation that comes through Jesus.

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. (John 14:6 NLT)


reply to post by Angle

I'm sorry if I derailed your thread a bit, but if enlightenment comes from God then establishing if God is good or bad has some merit.

Thanks

reply to post by Observationalist

We both have a different perspective on God. From your experience and the reading of the Scriptures you have formed the opinion that God is bad.

Perhaps.

I don't buy the story that the guy from the Old Testament is "God" or a representation of "God." So no, I don't think God is bad.

If we loose the Bible altogether and talk about the concept of what "GOD" may be, we may or may not agree.

In my reality, God doesn't write books. God's word is written everywhere in the world and universe around us.

There is a huge schism in Christianity. There is East vs West, Dogmatic vs Mystic, Exoteric Vs Esoteric, OT vs NT. Pick your poison wisely.

If you want to know about Christian Enlightenment, read about the Saints, Mystics, Monks, and Hermits of the tradition and they will reveal a few things to you. self denial (ego denial), hard core prayer, mediation, ilumination, ego death, and eventual enlightenment.

It's hard core stuff and I've glimpsed quite a few of these avenues. If your willing to do 12,000 Jesus prayers in a day, while ignoring the ego, then your really churning the butter.

It's the Jesus Prayer that has shown me that everyone is like the guy Jesus came across and asked his name, and he replied, "Our name is Legion for we are many." There are many of these ego's all fighting over dominance in a person. The angry I, lustful I, Jealous I, student I, husband I, father I, brother I, vengeful I .......

When I really started plunging the depths of my own soul, I witnessed these various ego's and began to see them in others. Thankfully I also experienced the Source of all things and united with it, off and on in sporadic moments here and there sometimes longer, sometimes shorter.... which puts into perspective the various I's.

It's some really dark and gruesome scary stuff that the average person caries with them in the depths, and it is these same depths that are eventually plunged, and the cobwebs cleaned out, to reveal the Source. No matter what path or road you take there, your going to come across this.

My final conclusion after a decade + of studying Christianity, is that Jesus was teaching way above the heads of anyone that can understand him, hence he had to water down and speak the language of the Jews. This watering down has been taken as the actual teachings, but their not. The actual teachings revolve around Enlightenment through grace, prayer, Love, Surrender, Meditation, and Knowledge, of all of which can be gained through studying the rest of the World's Philosophies and other paths.

I used to be a narrow minded dogmatic judgmental fundy, which was what Evagelical's were teaching me. Luckily through the Holy Spirit I experienced years worth of mystical experiences and dropped the Church to roll solo ... a relationship that's basically between me and the Source, Jesus, Spirit.

I experienced the Source ultimately while coming across my first Zen Koan. It was basically n intellectual puzzle that shifted me beyond the ego and awareness, and dropped me like a drop of water into the Ocean. After that, no words can suffice. It can be experienced, but you have to let go of yourself or unravel the ego to experience it.

I don't know about alot of things in OT I disagree with like the necessity for Blood Sacrifices to a Blood Thirsty god, or ordering Moses to kill various Armies, thousands and kill the remaining children, and take the women for themselves ....basically a genocide. Regretting that he created humans and causing the flood. It's like a human author putting human charechteristics on God who is not human.

But the NT is legit to me. I practiced it and it eventually lead to ego death, third eye wide open, inner light, transcendent Love, the Now, and my Heart yearning for Union w/ God

Great post dominicus, thank you.

Originally posted by dominicus
I used to be a narrow minded dogmatic judgmental fundy, which was what Evagelical's were teaching me. Luckily through the Holy Spirit I experienced years worth of mystical experiences and dropped the Church to roll solo ... a relationship that's basically between me and the Source, Jesus, Spirit.

So you still commune with the Source through Jesus via the Holy Spirit? Is this something you care to elaborate more on from an esoteric standpoint? If you don't, I completely understand, given this is a public forum.

Originally posted by dominicus
But the NT is legit to me. I practiced it and it eventually lead to ego death, third eye wide open, inner light, transcendent Love, the Now, and my Heart yearning for Union w/ God

Do you think Jesus was teaching these same processes of going to the God-Light above the body-mind via his transmission of the Holy Spirit, coupled with the yogic ascent via the third eye in his disciples (and any subsequent serious practitioners)? Do you think the morning star referred to in the Bible is the Light recognized in association with the third eye?

reply to post by bb23108

So you still commune with the Source through Jesus via the Holy Spirit? Is this something you care to elaborate more on from an esoteric standpoint? If you don't, I completely understand, given this is a public forum.

I commune through the Source by going within, Love, prayer, meditation, letting go, surrender. Jesus was my blueprint for these things, a friend, teacher, Master, brother. The Holy Spirit was a direct mystical experience and came down and indwelled me, slaying my ego and burning me up in Ecstatic Rapture which basically rearranged me. I was once w/ worldly ambition, selfish, drunkard, etc etc ...the Spirit came down and I had no choice but to surrender, let go, give up the ego.

When you long for God, practice prayer, meditation, Love, going within, surrender, Letting go, etc..... then the Spirit will descend upon you and fill you with Spiritual realities.

Do you think Jesus was teaching these same processes of going to the God-Light above the body-mind via his transmission of the Holy Spirit, coupled with the yogic ascent via the third eye in his disciples (and any subsequent serious practitioners)?

Yes. Although it's more a descent into the Heart. When you drop into the heart, that is where God lives, the Source of thoughts, of you, of Soul, of God. The Heart is the portal to Enlightenment. The Third Eye is the Lamp to see your way into the Heart. LEaving the Body via soul travel is cool and all, and even Paul in Corinthians describes it, but at the end of the day it ends up being a distraction from Union/Enlightenment.

Do you think the morning star referred to in the Bible is the Light recognized in association with the third eye?

You reach a certain Mystical Maturity in your relationship w/ God, where you directly experiencing Transcendence, Timeless Now, The Grand Perspective, and when that happens, you don't trouble yourself anymore with arguing and debating the different meanings of minor pieces of the Bible.

WOuld you rather spend the rest of your life reading and debating these things. or actually experiencing them?

Check out my Ultimate Enlightenment How To Thread here:
Thread Here

It will explain everything

Originally posted by dominicus
Yes. Although it's more a descent into the Heart. When you drop into the heart, that is where God lives, the Source of thoughts, of you, of Soul, of God. The Heart is the portal to Enlightenment. The Third Eye is the Lamp to see your way into the Heart. LEaving the Body via soul travel is cool and all, and even Paul in Corinthians describes it, but at the end of the day it ends up being a distraction from Union/Enlightenment.

Yes, too many aspirants are interested in the above-the-mind experiences that do not relieve the suffering associated with being identified with the process that is the ego-I.

Originally posted by dominicus
WOuld you rather spend the rest of your life reading and debating these things. or actually experiencing them?

No, not me. I was just curious about what you thought of that particular symbol, given the third eye is also considered a star.

Originally posted by dominicus
Check out my Ultimate Enlightenment How To Thread here:
Thread Here

It will explain everything

That is certainly an excellent description of the process many practitioners of different spiritual teachings also describe.

When you speak of falling into the Heart, is that associated with transcending the function of attention itself? Is there a locus in the Heart that you associate this process of "falling" with?

reply to post by bb23108

When you speak of falling into the Heart, is that associated with transcending the function of attention itself?

Awareness, or the Observer, is prior to the Mind/Thoughts/Ego ......however the Source, is Prior to Awareness/Observer/Attention.

What ends up happening, is that you as the Observer becomes loosened from the head area and are able to move around freely outside of the body and also within. When this loosening happens, it literally feels as is you drop down through a tunnel from the head area, through the neck, and then deep into the heart ...where all of a sudden there is no more you anywhere to be found, as you are merged with the One.

Is there a locus in the Heart that you associate this process of "falling" with?

Yes, it literally feels as if you drop from head to heart. A very deep going within, like deep sea diving.

All across the board, the major religions work on this, well besides dogmatic judaism, and the rest of the exoteric dogmas.

Eastern Christianity does this w/ the Jesus Prayer, Love, Surrender, Letting Go. Sufism has something similar. Buddhism calls it the Heart Mind, Taoism calls it the Tao, Yoga calls it Union, sooooo many ways.

That's why I think Jesus was dropping Spiritual Science similar to the depths of all the other paths. For example Buddhism isn't considered a religion, but a science on going within and what you will find there. There is nowhere you can go and find the deepest covered subjects than in esoteric Buddhism.

So Jesus watered t down and made the path easier by dropping the Holy Spirit on people. Because most folks can't by monks, hermits, live in monasteries. So instead, if your genuine in your path, you get hit with the Holy Spirit which quickens the path for you through Grace.

If you break down the picture of Jesus, which is a very common depiction across the board and across various Denominations including Eastern and Western, you will find his head is lit up with a Halo, and his Heart is lit up inflamed.

The Halo, is actually the Awareness/Observer Expanded beyond he Body. It is the Third Eye fully Open and Thine whole body shall be full of Light.

The Inflamed Heart is where this Awareness/Observer drops down into, in order to access Source/God. He's pointing to the heart in lot of these depictions cause he's saying, that's where you have to penetrate in order to be complete and find Enlightenment.

So the Ego is transcended because one is Plunged into the Heart/Source/God. And the Body is Transcended because as Observer/Awareness, you are actually expanded beyond the body and know first hand that the body is not you, but an Avatar like Vessel. Therefore Death of the Body is looked forward to and not feared.

Very few ever reach this though, with so many distractions and the A.D.D. mind scurries from one object to the next

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by bb23108

 

Eastern Christianity does this w/ the Jesus Prayer, Love, Surrender, Letting Go. Sufism has something similar. Buddhism calls it the Heart Mind, Taoism calls it the Tao, Yoga calls it Union, sooooo many ways.

Particularly the Christian mystics speak in terms that resemble the middle or astral heart in Hinduism, where great love and feeling of oneness with the Divine is profoundly felt and infuses the body-mind.

Ramana Maharshi taught non-dualism and also spoke of the heart on the right - the causal heart - in which the ego-I is first generated, i.e., the first gesture of separation. He spoke of finding the source of I in this heart. Adi Da Samraj has also spoken of this heart and also the regeneration of Consciousness through Amrita Nadi to the Light infinitely above the crown of the head.

Of course, any such esoteric matters would not be discussed in Jesus' time publicly. For this reason he gave his two commandments of love - which are both esoteric and exoteric - because if someone actually fully lived the life of loving God with the whole heart, mind, soul, and strength (body), and one's neighbor as one's self - they would be very well prepared for the surrender it takes for these esoteric practices, and which Jesus obviously offered, but only to those who were properly prepared through devotional surrender of the ego-I.

Originally posted by dominicus
So the Ego is transcended because one is Plunged into the Heart/Source/God. And the Body is Transcended because as Observer/Awareness, you are actually expanded beyond the body and know first hand that the body is not you, but an Avatar like Vessel. Therefore Death of the Body is looked forward to and not feared.

Why would you look forward to death if you are already free of the body-mind?

reply to post by bb23108

Why would you look forward to death if you are already free of the body-mind?

Because that's what death is.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by bb23108

 

Why would you look forward to death if you are already free of the body-mind?

Because that's what death is.

In terms of the physical body, obviously at death there is freedom from it - but if the ego-principle is still not transcended, one goes through the unconscious, like in a dream, but without the anchor of the body and the usual waking up in the morning. The rebirth cycle then starts up again at some point with yet another body, to start all the learning over once again. This is not freedom in and of itself.

AI, did you read the prior posts? I would also recommend his thread he linked us to a few posts up. Or are you just being cute and clever with your response?

dominicus is expressing freedom from the body-mind already - so my question as to why would he be looking forward to death?

Nice posts/information here.



To member bb...... Jesus commandments were there for the ego to follow. It's kind of a mimick to what 'universal consciousness' is. When one is enlightenment one does not steal, love his neighbour (as himself), worships only the most high and such, not?

Can it be the ego transforms into a positive ego, or that is just another illusion and another phase of ego just the way ego is/does.

Nice post dominicus. I have two experiences to address here.

1st. I bought a laserquartz a few years ago already, and I did a silva ultramind course. In the course we were trained to go into objects as it were. We needed to do that holding the object in front of our 'third' eye and intenting to observe the object with it. I did this with the laserquartz and a flash struck my brain. Just as a sidenote this one.

2nd. I read somewhere in the bible (Paul) about inner circumcision, but took it too literally I suppose, for I once felt physically something like a lightning that came out of my head into the center of my chest (the heart I'd say) It was like a cord that shooted from my third eye I could say to/into my heart. It did not hurt really, but it was felt.

I'm still human, people.

I think I fear losing guidance. It is something I shouldn't have fear of. I don't really know what it is I doubted now. I'm good!

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Another form of death. It is not the same as physical death. One is alive because of this mystical meaning of death. Prolly death of the ego. It is the death of something by which one is alive.

Originally posted by Angle
To member bb...... Jesus commandments were there for the ego to follow. It's kind of a mimick to what 'universal consciousness' is. When one is enlightenment one does not steal, love his neighbour (as himself), worships only the most high and such, not?

To me, Jesus gave the commandments to everyone - and whoever was most serious about their application of them altogether, would simply also be most prepared for conducting the energies of the esoteric practices he offered and transmitted.

If one did not practice love or ego-transcending devotion to God relative to every ordinary life circumstance, then when coming face to face with the Conscious Light of the Divine, it would perhaps be a positive experience, but Jesus was about having his disciples transcend the body-mind in God, not just about having a positive experience.

Originally posted by Angle
Can it be the ego transforms into a positive ego, or that is just another illusion and another phase of ego just the way ego is/does.

Sure, people can certainly be better people by adapting to his commandments - and this is the exoteric aspect of his teaching. However, transcending the ego is not about it being a good or bad ego - from the standpoint of truth, all egoity is an illusion - and this is his esoteric teaching. However, unless you practiced the core commandments of Jesus, no esoteric understanding would be likely, and certainly not permanent.

reply to post by bb23108

Particularly the Christian mystics speak in terms that resemble the middle or astral heart in Hinduism, where great love and feeling of oneness with the Divine is profoundly felt and infuses the body-mind. Ramana Maharshi taught non-dualism and also spoke of the heart on the right - the causal heart - in which the ego-I is first generated, i.e., the first gesture of separation. He spoke of finding the source of I in this heart. Adi Da Samraj has also spoken of this heart and also the regeneration of Consciousness through Amrita Nadi to the Light infinitely above the crown of the head.

Yeah I experience those things from Ramana, Adi Da, Nisargadaata, etc. I think Jesus was a Nondualist as well. He said, "I and the Father are One." I've dropped into the Source of I, and at the Source there was no "me" anywhere to be found in an ocean of Oneness.

Also the Gospel of Thomas is said to be the oldest of the NT writings, even though the Dogmatic Fundies consider it gnostic. Still I think Thomas is legit and in it Jesus is saying all types of Koan like Nondual pointers like when Two things become One, then you will kow God, or when you know thyself, then you will know God.

No Imagine a Nondual Christ trying to break down to blood sacrificing Jews that the way is Within and Love and etc. They killed him for it, cause they were so wrapped in blind ignorant tradition. Judiasm makes me sick to my stomach when I think about the animal sacrificing.

Of course, any such esoteric matters would not be discussed in Jesus' time publicly. For this reason he gave his two commandments of love - which are both esoteric and exoteric - because if someone actually fully lived the life of loving God with the whole heart, mind, soul, and strength (body), and one's neighbor as one's self - they would be very well prepared for the surrender it takes for these esoteric practices, and which Jesus obviously offered, but only to those who were properly prepared through devotional surrender of the ego-I.

Exactly!!!! This is why Christianity and especially Catholicism is crumbling, because they lack Enlightenment. The Christian of the Future will be a Mystic.

Why would you look forward to death if you are already free of the body-mind?

Because in many Saints/Enlightened BEings, the Body is the cause of Ignorance and Ego. It's from the Body that Lust stirs, and hunger, and Anger, and all the passions that cause troubles. To be free of the body is to be back with God and to be free from this realm.

I remember pre-existing prior to coming here, I was a Soul in a natural, free, non-clinging, airy, spaceous, grand place. This Earth realm is like a heavy, dirty, slow, mechanical animal like prison. We're like a bunch of animals here completely living off animal instincts and ego......

Tune back into Source and Awareness and your Free

Originally posted by dominicus
The Christian of the Future will be a Mystic.

It is definitely the case If many more Christians practiced what Jesus was teaching in both exoteric and esoteric terms (his commandments and receiving his transmission Blessing), much would change. It would certainly save Christianity because it not only would bring the ecstasy of Jesus' message to the membership again, but would completely re-align Christianity with its actual roots.

Originally posted by dominicus

Why would you look forward to death if you are already free of the body-mind?

Because in many Saints/Enlightened BEings, the Body is the cause of Ignorance and Ego. It's from the Body that Lust stirs, and hunger, and Anger, and all the passions that cause troubles. To be free of the body is to be back with God and to be free from this realm.

I remember pre-existing prior to coming here, I was a Soul in a natural, free, non-clinging, airy, spaceous, grand place. This Earth realm is like a heavy, dirty, slow, mechanical animal like prison. We're like a bunch of animals here completely living off animal instincts and ego......

Tune back into Source and Awareness and your Free

True enough about this world - it is hell-like in many ways. But in the fullest form of Enlightenment, wherever one manifests, he is free - and free to bring humor and wisdom to others as well. If any thing or body results in losing that freedom, then one's enlightenment would have to be questioned/deepened.

It is not the physical body that is inherently the problem, even if it is all those things you mentioned in its untransformed state. It is the egoic reaction to it - fundamentally whether to indulge it or escape from it.

Most spiritual traditions, especially the mystically-oriented ones, seek to escape the body, usually through ascent up the spinal line to the third eye, and beyond - due to having a similarly negative sense you just described about the body.

The non-dual traditions of Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism typically don't pay the body much mind one way or another, but their method still tends to be body-negative in the sense that it also is excluded.

However, the body-mind is to be mastered, much like a dog, to allow the force of Divine Communion to utterly transform it - even at a cellular level. (This is also obviously served by various supportive life disciplines.) This Divinely-based transformation is why various realizers shine as you were pointing out with the Halo and Heart. The more they have allowed the Divine to utterly descend into their physical form, the more their whole body shines with Grace - and the more obvious that Grace is to whomever the realizer may end up serving.

Until we are surrendered/released to the degree that we are utterly free of the motive to escape or indulge the body, we are likely to be reborn in planes like this because the seeking-force that got us born here in the first place may not have been made completely obsolete.

reply to post by bb23108

Well yea I agree there needs to be a balance. I've found since all my experiences and realizations that there are a bunch of channels opening up in the body now and making it lighter, more free, easier to be in. We obviously need it to communicate to other body dwellers.

Also some branches of thought say that the body is necessary to realize Enlightenment through the Heart. third eye, belly, etc......

But as you know, there are various takes on it all. Personally, I'm just Zen about. Having remembered pre-existing as Soul, I know directly that inherently I am not the body and one day will return from where I came.

However, on another note, I'm here, as an apparent body/avatar-like vehicle and thus there is a purpose for being here, work to do, a mess to untangle.

I find it interesting that in Buddhist thought they say unless One realizes the Supreme State/Self, the person will be forever re-incarnating. Jesus said, for a man to enter Heaven, he must be born of water and Spirit (basically water baptism which leads to Holy Spirit Activation, which then leads to Ego death).

Alot of different paths discuss the high standards that it takes to acquire a one-way ticket out of this place, and personally, I would do what ever to come back here. Then again that's mind talking. When Mind is seen through, then out of compassion one would come back for the sake of others.

Also it's interesting Edgar Cayce predicted his death, many other predictions, and then said he would reincarnate in 2100 and remember his past life...... so it sounds as if eve Christians are not immune to reincarnate if you take that view.

Personally though, I've witnessed too much disgust, starvation, death, shootings, misery, hatred, and the worst of the worst to sit here and say that after my experiences in Oneness, and behind Illusion, to be able to say it's all good......I can't. You can sit in Enlightenment all day, but when your standing in front of a dying African child w/ Aids, fly's on him, and his parents are dead, ....you realize that this realm, this madness has to come to an end, but we can't solve them within the same limited consciousness that they were created.

I think time, enlightenment, and intelligence will be the cure. Most starvation and horrors happen in 3rd world countries. When you study 1st world educated countries, or areas, you find less crime, poverty, craziness, chaos, etc. ALso I think tech is going to get to a place where we can transfer Enlightenment, or the "How To" of it, from One mind to another via consciousness uploads. I think this alone will revolutionize and change everything.

Originally posted by dominicus
Personally though, I've witnessed too much disgust, starvation, death, shootings, misery, hatred, and the worst of the worst to sit here and say that after my experiences in Oneness, and behind Illusion, to be able to say it's all good...

I think time, enlightenment, and intelligence will be the cure.

Yes, definitely. This world is constantly reminding us of our mortality. Much of the destruction that goes on is directly due to man being out of touch with the indivisible unity that our body-minds all arise in. More and more this adolescent egoity, in which everyone is wanting to live in their own castle and own all kinds of unnecessary stuff, is taking over - and using up the incredible amount of resources this approach to living requires. The world cannot sustain this current model - it is being destroyed by extreme consumerism leading to extreme weather, etc., etc.

Big religion that pushes that Jesus is coming back to save everyone, or that if you are good enough, you will go to heaven, or as long as you confessed before dying you are good to go, etc., is basically supporting this egoic madness that is destroying the world - and mainly the impoverished countries are suffering more and more.

A dreadful dreadful situation that can only be truly remedied if everyone renounces this insanity of ego by recognizing that we all arise in a vast indivisible field of relatedness, and that we are all in the same boat regardless of our nationality, etc.

On this basis we can change everything - because we will see that endless consumerism is not happiness, that fast food is toxifying and killing millions as well as the planet, that right diet, appropriate exercise, etc., are all supportive of the bodily equanimity necessary to realize what is truth, etc.

So no, I too am not at all idealistic about this earth plane - it is very gross in the cosmic scheme of things. But this is where I appear and it is necessary to practice this whole bodily understanding of non-separation and love regardless of how difficult it can be.

Originally posted by dominicus
ALso I think tech is going to get to a place where we can transfer Enlightenment, or the "How To" of it, from One mind to another via consciousness uploads. I think this alone will revolutionize and change everything.

In reading your "How To" thread I am wondering if you still relate to this process through Jesus as your Master?

Certainly various yogic techniques can allow an aspirant to experience the love-bliss of the astral heart. However, Unconditional Conscious Light/Love-Bliss is utterly beyond the body-mind and all of its gross, subtle, and causal sheaths.

The most complete Enlightenment cannot be gained through any seeking, any method, or technique - because all such doings are egoic. This is why Unconditional Grace must draw the aspirant through the eye of the needle, so to speak, to the Unconditional "Realm" of Conscious Light in which all conditions arise and are a modification of.

No amount of conditional manipulation be it a technique, substance, technology or mind-transfer, regardless of how subtle it is, will work. Complete surrender and the Grace of Reality Itself is absolutely necessary.

There have been endless attempts to short-cut real ego-transcending practice with various methods and/or substances. They are short-lived at best because they cannot touch the causal root of the ego - it is the very first, most primitive gesture that consciousness makes to individuate, to separate. Nothing but Consciousness or Grace can undo that moment to moment root activity that occurs beyond and prior to the body-mind.

And so, such a God-realizing practice from the very beginning should be based on Grace and always. Because what is realized is Grace Itself, Reality, Consciousness, God! So why not begin with this and persist in a Grace-filled life throughout the whole ordeal? Is this also what you are saying?

Jesus offered Grace to all from the very beginning. The basis for their living by his commandments was this transmission of his Grace - and only that Grace or understanding of one's indivisible unity with God and all others, from the beginning of one's practice and throughout it, would even allow these commandments to be fully lived, and the body-mind able to conduct that Spirit transmission of Divine Grace more and more fully.

I guess when you said in an earlier post that you roll solo now, I am wondering what that means besides not being affiliated with big-time religion business.