Enlightenment and God. (biblical view)

reply to post by Angle

Aim for infinity..

But after infinity comes more infinity!

reply to post by Angle


The fact that God wanted to prevent humans from gaining knowledge of good and evil means that God wanted to keep us from reaching enlightened thinking. By disobeying God, we opened the door to enlightened states.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Angle
I post this again, it's from the bible, this passage:
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.



This seems to also be a sort of enlightenment', not?

Or is it that one can only become enlightened under the obedience of God, or when God is known in ones life?

My conclusion: God's got something to do with enlightenment.

Those quotes are another indication of the esoteric side of Jesus' teachings I brought up on a few other threads. Jesus is saying that if your eye is single - i.e., the third eye in the ascended or astral body - then you are communing with the Light of God above the body-mind through this eye. (This is, and was then, an understood yogic practice in various eastern traditions.) If it is not single, you are merely seeing the gross physical world devoid of this Light and living the usual egoic life in darkness (i.e., without the Light above that transcends this separative gesture of the ego).

This esoteric teaching/initiation was given to those who already lived Jesus' two commandments of love, and which prepared the body-mind for the surrender necessary for this initiation and vision.

reply to post by bb23108


Yes, but those teachings are rarely seen in modern Christianity. They ignore it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

That and/or they have lost the esoteric meaning of many of Jesus' words because the esoteric practices had to go underground after Jesus' death - in favor of the more exoteric teachings adopted by the Romans to appease/control the masses. You can't expect a bunch of ecstatics to function for the "man" very well!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Angle

 

Adam and Eve's only obedience was abstinence. Otherwise, they were perfect servants, tending the garden. They knew nothing of enlightenment, because they had no knowledge of "good and evil" the one thing that the biblical god didn't want them to know about.

Once they did, and ate from the fruit of "good and evil" they had become like the biblical god, and they had to go.

How could one be enlightened before being godlike? Doesn't "GOD" embody enlightenment? How could there be enlightenment through blind obedience to abstinence?

Your implying that satan was telling them the truth, that they would become like god.
I'm pretty sure satan will say or do anything to get one simple act of disobedience.

I don't belive the tree had any power of good and evil, it was simply a marker a boundary set by God. All satan had to do was get them to cross that line.

By crossing that line satan had infact brought them to understand that they were capable of doing evil. They already knew about good, this crossing the line became the first act of evil. So they now knew of good and evil.

Originally posted by Observationalist

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Angle

 

Adam and Eve's only obedience was abstinence. Otherwise, they were perfect servants, tending the garden. They knew nothing of enlightenment, because they had no knowledge of "good and evil" the one thing that the biblical god didn't want them to know about.

Once they did, and ate from the fruit of "good and evil" they had become like the biblical god, and they had to go.

How could one be enlightened before being godlike? Doesn't "GOD" embody enlightenment? How could there be enlightenment through blind obedience to abstinence?

Your implying that satan was telling them the truth, that they would become like god.
I'm pretty sure satan will say or do anything to get one simple act of disobedience.

I don't belive the tree had any power of good and evil, it was simply a marker a boundary set by God. All satan had to do was get them to cross that line.

By crossing that line satan had infact brought them to understand that they were capable of doing evil. They already knew about good, this crossing the line became the first act of evil. So they now knew of good and evil.

I'm implying nothing about Satan. He isn't even mentioned in the text. "The Serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. Genesis 3:1." The serpent was one of God's creations that he said was "good".

The serpent made the promise or the lie, however you wish to read it. It was the "Lord God" that said that Adam and Eve had become like him/them, (godlike), not the serpent, not Satan.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

That and/or they have lost the esoteric meaning of many of Jesus' words because the esoteric practices had to go underground after Jesus' death - in favor of the more exoteric teachings adopted by the Romans to appease/control the masses. You can't expect a bunch of ecstatics to function for the "man" very well!

Neither. There is a reason that Our Creator forbids any sort of divination.
Adam and Eve's eyes were closed to Him, and opened to good and evil.
Thus their spiritual eyes were shut to Him, because in Him there is no evil.

Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees (6086)  in the garden,

6086 ets
carpenter, gallows, helve, pine, plank, staff, stalk, stick,

a tree (from its firmness); hence, wood (plural sticks) -- + carpenter, gallows, helve, + pine, plank, staff, stalk, stick, stock, timber, tree, wood.

It sounds like a tree until you look at the root word

see HEBREW atsah (6095)
TO SHUT
"winks"
A primitive root; properly, to fasten (or make firm), i.e. To close (the eyes) -- shut. 

Now look at its related atseh 6096 which is from 6095 above

backbone
From atsah; the spine (as giving firmness to the body) -- backbone

Esoterics never mention the "to close, to shut" relation to trees. Why?
They'd trip up in their lies. You will never access your Creator or Heaven through altering your consciousness because your spiritual sight is closed to it. You are given the false light of darkness. Your spiritual eyes were firmly closed to the Kingdom of God and barred from the Tree of Life. Which begs the question, and answers it really, as to the real source of all 'esoteric and occult' knowledge - the darkness.

Jesus walks us through this in his parable whereby He restores sight.

There is no evil in your Creator, only Light, Truth and Holiness. This is why we are separated. Whilst the world succumbs to the same damning ploy today as used in the Garden of Eden, the only ones not "going within" are those still in faith and obedience. Even if they have no conscious knowledge of spiritual sight, they do understand and trust their Creator's instructions and leadings. As they commune with Heaven, Jesus Christ does exactly as He promised - He keeps them. Unlike Cain, of that evil one, who most certainly wasn't his brother's keeper. And the fact that your brand of "enlightenment" always leads one to reject salvation through Jesus Christ is indicative that you have been given the delusion. You chose wrongly.

The mystery of iniquity is nearly full - the amount on ATS alone pushing the alteration of consciousness and the rise of the serpent religions truly does tell us that the end is known from the beginning.

For future reference, there is a Religion, Faith, Theology section of the website. There's many scripture fiends there.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by Observationalist

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Angle

 

Adam and Eve's only obedience was abstinence. Otherwise, they were perfect servants, tending the garden. They knew nothing of enlightenment, because they had no knowledge of "good and evil" the one thing that the biblical god didn't want them to know about.

Once they did, and ate from the fruit of "good and evil" they had become like the biblical god, and they had to go.

How could one be enlightened before being godlike? Doesn't "GOD" embody enlightenment? How could there be enlightenment through blind obedience to abstinence?

Your implying that satan was telling them the truth, that they would become like god.
I'm pretty sure satan will say or do anything to get one simple act of disobedience.

I don't belive the tree had any power of good and evil, it was simply a marker a boundary set by God. All satan had to do was get them to cross that line.

By crossing that line satan had infact brought them to understand that they were capable of doing evil. They already knew about good, this crossing the line became the first act of evil. So they now knew of good and evil.

I'm implying nothing about Satan. He isn't even mentioned in the text. "The Serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. Genesis 3:1." The serpent was one of God's creations that he said was "good".

The serpent made the promise or the lie, however you wish to read it. It was the "Lord God" that said that Adam and Eve had become like him/them, (godlike), not the serpent, not Satan.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

edit on 12-3-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Behold, the man is become as one of us - On all hands this text is allowed to be difficult, and the difficulty is increased by our translation, which is opposed to the original Hebrew and the most authentic versions. The Hebrew has היה hayah, which is the third person preterite tense, and signifies was, not is. The Samaritan text, the Samaritan version, the Syriac, and the Septuagint, have the same tense. These lead us to a very different sense, and indicate that there is an ellipsis of some words which must be supplied in order to make the sense complete. A very learned man has ventured the following paraphrase, which should not be lightly regarded: "And the Lord God said, The man who was like one of us in purity and wisdom, is now fallen and robbed of his excellence; he has added לדעת ladaath, to the knowledge of the good, by his transgression the knowledge of the evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever in this miserable state, I will remove him, and guard the place lest he should re-enter. Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,"

bible.cc...

reply to post by WhoKnows100


I find it disturbing and interesting how Christians apologetics analyse the mind of God, assuming motives, words, thoughts, etc. above and beyond the biblical message to change the story to fit their version of reality.

Originally posted by WhoKnows100
Esoterics never mention the "to close, to shut" relation to trees. Why?
They'd trip up in their lies. You will never access your Creator or Heaven through altering your consciousness because your spiritual sight is closed to it. You are given the false light of darkness. Your spiritual eyes were firmly closed to the Kingdom of God and barred from the Tree of Life. Which begs the question, and answers it really, as to the real source of all 'esoteric and occult' knowledge - the darkness.

Wow! This is quite a post.

Oddly enough, without me even starting any conversation about Christianity, a friend on a phone call just mentioned that a very close Christian friend of his said to him today, "Jesus, please save me from your followers!"

We laughed especially given the irony of the statement, but I had no idea that I would be using this line minutes after hearing it! (Please know that I am certainly NOT aiming this comment at any other Christians I have related with here.) (Edit: Also, after googling, I realize now that is an old line, but I actually never heard it before tonight.)

So your argument is that I am deceived by the darkness and to be speaking of Jesus' revelation of the Light to his beloved disciples is all wrong, a product of the devil? Would you please elaborate a bit more in your own words without all the quotes?

And who said anything about trying to alter one's consciousness to attain what Jesus is speaking of? It was his initiation. All the disciples would be doing was preparing their body-minds through obeying his core commandments to completely love God and neighbor. They were not trying to get altered, they were surrendering to their Lord and Master, Jesus, and he granted them God's Light above the brain-mind to the extent their surrender was true and their body-minds were open to it.

Thus they gained singleness of sight - the indivisible Light of God.

Anyway, I look forward to your elaboration.

Originally posted by Observationalist


Your implying that satan was telling them the truth, that they would become like god.
I'm pretty sure satan will say or do anything to get one simple act of disobedience.

I don't belive the tree had any power of good and evil, it was simply a marker a boundary set by God. All satan had to do was get them to cross that line.

By crossing that line satan had infact brought them to understand that they were capable of doing evil. They already knew about good, this crossing the line became the first act of evil. So they now knew of good and evil.

Yes, that's it, their act of disobedience was evil on itself. What great insight. superthanks!

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by Observationalist

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Angle

 

Adam and Eve's only obedience was abstinence. Otherwise, they were perfect servants, tending the garden. They knew nothing of enlightenment, because they had no knowledge of "good and evil" the one thing that the biblical god didn't want them to know about.

Once they did, and ate from the fruit of "good and evil" they had become like the biblical god, and they had to go.

How could one be enlightened before being godlike? Doesn't "GOD" embody enlightenment? How could there be enlightenment through blind obedience to abstinence?

Your implying that satan was telling them the truth, that they would become like god.
I'm pretty sure satan will say or do anything to get one simple act of disobedience.

I don't belive the tree had any power of good and evil, it was simply a marker a boundary set by God. All satan had to do was get them to cross that line.

By crossing that line satan had infact brought them to understand that they were capable of doing evil. They already knew about good, this crossing the line became the first act of evil. So they now knew of good and evil.

I'm implying nothing about Satan. He isn't even mentioned in the text. "The Serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. Genesis 3:1." The serpent was one of God's creations that he said was "good".

The serpent made the promise or the lie, however you wish to read it. It was the "Lord God" that said that Adam and Eve had become like him/them, (godlike), not the serpent, not Satan.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

edit on 12-3-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Right, I missed that, I was on my way to work should have waited to post.

Let me explained.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

How they become as one of them?
God has the power to give and takeaway life, man now does too. God commanded them to fill the earth, creating life. Now because their disobedience, and the introduction of death, they possess the power to eliminate life.
We have seen with world leaders that "Play God" or have a "God Complex" how destructive this power can be.

Adam already has a taste for the power when he says to God.

The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.” (Genesis 3:12 NLT)

God is the ultimate judge over what is good and evil.
Adam and Eve decided that they new better, and they have the power to decide. So while they became like God in knowing good and evil, they were not trained to properly discern between good or evil.
That's why God did not want them around the tree of life, because they would live for ever in this prideful ignorant state.

God then made a way for them to properly receive the fruit from the tree of life. The rest of the bible lays out this plan pretty thoroughly.

reply to post by Observationalist

God is the ultimate judge over what is good and evil.

Here's God judging "good."

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Here's God judging "not good."

Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Adam and Eve decided that they new better, and they have the power to decide. So while they became like God in knowing good and evil, they were not trained to properly discern between good or evil. That's why God did not want them around the tree of life, because they would live for ever in this prideful ignorant state. God then made a way for them to properly receive the fruit from the tree of life. The rest of the bible lays out this plan pretty thoroughly.

There is nothing to indicate that "God" ever had the intention of gently allowing mankind an initiation in the knowledge of good and evil. Also, there is nothing to indicate that Adam and Eve felt pride or became ignorant after eating. On the contrary, they were "ashamed" when they "knew" of their nakedness. The tree did indeed make them wise.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Now, as far a Adam blaming Eve for his transgression, in my opinion, Eve was only a projection of his feminine persona. When "God" took Eve from Adam's side, he made her out of himself. She represents duality and a personal schism or fracture of Adam's soul. God literally split Adam in half, creating 2 bodies and 2 souls from the whole, that was once Adam.

Obviously Adam and Eve weren't in a state of perfection, otherwise the serpent wouldn't have been able to play on their weakness and desire to be godlike (whole). Before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they lived in ignorance.

reply to post by Angle


This is how I would define enlightenment:

Enlightenment is a sense of peace one gains when they are proud of their own concepts. It happens when one's concepts do not conflict. It most often occurs in people who are patient.

It is arrogance without the excessive angst.

If differs from vanity only because it is strictly pride of concepts and not pride of the body.

It's the opposite of anguish.



What kind of enlightenment are you referring to? Just knowledge? You can have that if you pray. It may not give you peace though. Peace relies on your acceptance.

reply to post by Observationalist

Your implying that satan was telling them the truth, that they would become like god.
I'm pretty sure satan will say or do anything to get one simple act of disobedience.

I'm pretty sure a competent detective gets the whole side of the story instead of formulating his conclusions prematurely in order to receive eternal life. But, you know, that's competence for you. It's not like anyone really cares about the truth anymore, right? After all, once lying becomes so easy, and the truth so much harder to isolate, it becomes simpler to settle for a convenient lie rather than fight to find an agonizing truth. So it has been throughout all of history. Once you know too much, you die. So logically, it follows that the less you know, the longer you live.

I guess ignorance is the currency of today. So much for critical thinking - it's about as valuable as equality and compassion.

By crossing that line satan had infact brought them to understand that they were capable of doing evil. They already knew about good, this crossing the line became the first act of evil. So they now knew of good and evil.

First act of independence, you mean. In eating that fruit, not a single creature was harmed or insulted - save the one entity who supposedly wanted to keep them locked in that garden forever. Is that a very humane thing to ask of a sentient species? A man and a woman, neither of whom has committed any crime, are asked to stay in one small slice of a great big world...and their punishment for disobeying the guard is freedom.

So what, exactly, did they do wrong? You know, besides deciding they wanted to make their own decision, instead of taking their lead from "God"?

reply to post by windword

There is nothing to indicate that "God" ever had the intention of gently allowing mankind an initiation in the knowledge of good and evil. Also, there is nothing to indicate that Adam and Eve felt pride or became ignorant after eating. On the contrary, they were "ashamed" when they "knew" of their nakedness. The tree did indeed make them wise.

Adam an Eve were sufficient enough to be in the garden to thrive and work and to enjoy a relationship with their creator. We don't know the extent of their knowledge, or the relationship. The type of relationship you describe is a dictatorship. While I see a father leading.

Here's why, humans are born to older more knowledgeable human parent, we all at some point were dependent on an older humans wisdom. This cycle of being sufficient yet needing instruction, is repeated in nature and humanity. God designed this pattern and set the example with his first creation. Perhaps that why the commandment to honor your father and mother comes with the promise of long life.

Adam and Eve dishonest their father, and forfeited a better life.
They went from being sufficient to being deficient, that's why they felt shame. In the presence of a perfect God against a background of a perfect reality, they stood out like naked people in a garden. Even as they hide they are being prideful thinking they can out smart God, as they sew fig leafs together they make their own provisions and not rely on Gods. This cycle of pride and shame continue.

The tree made them wise? Not sure how shame equals wise. Shame is associated with depressions and other psychological disorders. Shame is an emotional scar.

They are ignorant in that they couldn't continue to learn and develop their God given attributes in the proper setting of the garden. So they missed out on the complete teachings of their creator.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Once you know too much, you die. So logically, it follows that the less you know, the longer you live.

Knowing and disobey are different things. These two had the ability to know all, under the guides of their creator, the one who created the world they lived in. The creator set up some boundaries for them to operate in. Simple rule. Don't eat of the tree and live long, eat of it and death will be introduced.

Are you dumber because you follow he rules of the stoplight, or stay in you lane, that someone determined was what you need. Are you oppressed by these road safety shackles that keep you alive.

What knowledge did they receive from breaking the rule. They now could blame someone for their mistakes. They learned to hide from the truth in order to feel less shame. They learned to make up stories that put them in the best light. They now could decide to pick up a stone and kill someone.

save the one entity who supposedly wanted to keep them locked in that garden forever.

God did not want them in that garden forever, he told them to multiply to fill the earth, the garden was not the world.
God planned for them to take care of the earth not just the garden.

So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.” Then God said, “Look! I have given you every seed-bearing plant throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food. And I have given every green plant as food for all the wild animals, the birds in the sky, and the small animals that scurry along the ground—everything that has life.” And that is what happened. Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good! And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day. (Genesis 1:27-31 NLT)

Then the L ord God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he placed the man he had made. The L ord God made all sorts of trees grow up from the ground—trees that were beautiful and that produced delicious fruit. In the middle of the garden he placed the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Genesis 2:8, 9 NLT)
The L ord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. But the L ord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden— except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.” (Genesis 2:15-17 NLT)

Originally posted by Observationalist
reply to post by windword

 

There is nothing to indicate that "God" ever had the intention of gently allowing mankind an initiation in the knowledge of good and evil. Also, there is nothing to indicate that Adam and Eve felt pride or became ignorant after eating. On the contrary, they were "ashamed" when they "knew" of their nakedness. The tree did indeed make them wise.

Adam an Eve were sufficient enough to be in the garden to thrive and work and to enjoy a relationship with their creator. We don't know the extent of their knowledge, or the relationship. The type of relationship you describe is a dictatorship. While I see a father leading.

According to the story, Adam was created to do a job.

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Here's why, humans are born to older more knowledgeable human parent, we all at some point were dependent on an older humans wisdom. This cycle of being sufficient yet needing instruction, is repeated in nature and humanity. God designed this pattern and set the example with his first creation. Perhaps that why the commandment to honor your father and mother comes with the promise of long life.

Adam was created a fully formed adult who never experienced a mother's love, felt a hug, fell down and got a boo boo, learned to walk or got a scolding from dad.

What dad wouldn't want his children to desire to be like him? What father doesn't teach his child to emulate him? What kind of a father punishes his son's first mistake with exile and death?

The God of Genesis sounds like a corporate CEO that "likes to fire people", not a father.

Adam and Eve dishonest their father, and forfeited a better life.
They went from being sufficient to being deficient, that's why they felt shame. In the presence of a perfect God against a background of a perfect reality, they stood out like naked people in a garden. Even as they hide they are being prideful thinking they can out smart God, as they sew fig leafs together they make their own provisions and not rely on Gods. This cycle of pride and shame continue.

They hid out of shame and fear. I don't see where you get pride from shame and fear.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

As I said before, Adam's soul was fractured. He was literally divided in half by "God". He was no longer whole and he was distracted by the projection of his feminine persona in Eve. If Adam & Eve perceived their imperfection, it was the imperfection in which they were created.

The tree made them wise? Not sure how shame equals wise. Shame is associated with depressions and other psychological disorders. Shame is an emotional scar.

Don't question me, question the Bible. The Bible says that the fruit of the tree endowed them the "knowledge of good and evil." "They ate of the tree and their eyes were opened."

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

They are ignorant in that they couldn't continue to learn and develop their God given attributes in the proper setting of the garden. So they missed out on the complete teachings of their creator.

There is absolutely no indication in the text of Genesis that says that "God" intended to teach them about good and evil, in his own way at his own time. There was a tree for that. Period. They were told not to eat from it. They were barred from the "Tree of Life" that they were previously allowed to eat from. That was "God's" decision to drive them away. It wasn't a cause and effect thing.

and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.