People have been brainwashed to believe that socialism is evil...

reply to post by Cabin

The concept of socialism and communism might not be bad except it always seems to be a breeding ground for atheist dictators who restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual. You say that the people have been brainwashed into thinking that socialism and communism are evil well in the same token the people over there are also brainwashed to believe that democracy or that the western society is evil.

Well I think that all of them might not be bad it's just the Powers that control them are bad. The average guy in any country all over the world all want the same thing. No matter what color or race or religion or whatever. they all want the same thing. To just be able to go to work everyday and make enough money to provide for his family.

I blame the crooked international banksters, the large corporate elites and the corrupt politicians for creating all the wars and death and destruction. These people are evil and the sooner that the people all over the world wake up and begin to realize it the sooner they can start to fix it.

When I was going to school no one liked history every one hated it they found it boring and the general opinion was that it wasn't an important a subjects like math and science. Well I have since then found out that it actually is one of if not the most important subject and people need to realize that and make sure that it the true history and not some propaganda lies. People need to research and find out the truth about the history of the world and not just take anyone's word for something.

I'm just sayin' is all.

reply to post by Cabin

The truth is we do not have true capitalism....what we now are experiencing is corporatism, i.e. fascism. Big corporations align themselves politically (Ayn Rand's "the politics of pull") and cooperate on their common goals....enlargement of governmental regulations and suppression of true competition. True laissez-faire would have nothing to do with lobbies or lobbying (it should be criminalized), it would have a value-based currency rather than the fiat dollars the Fed orders the Treasury to print for it and/or the Fed with a few keyboard keystrokes creates create (as with dollars) out of thin air which debases the economy and create more inflation which creates the need for more dollars to be created to syphon through the economy.
It's a house of cards and will eventually lead to hyper-inflation and/or the collapse of the petro-dollar (and the Euro). It's similar to the stock market where "value" is over-inflated in the stock prices.
No matter if you call it crony capitalism, fascism or corporatism....the elite on top will always stay 'ahead' of the Ponzi scheme as they get to utilize the newly created currency before it drains down to the average individual.
Our economy is a total sham with UNDER-employment at, at least 40%, with illegal aliens stealing jobs, with a faux currency, with a corrupt government that is bent on wars of conquest (we now have 'elements' of our military and CIA in 35 African countries) and the militarization of our police-thugs who have no problem tasing anyone they choose (judge-jury-executionor) killing many of those whose heart can't handle the shock.
Shame on the US (the only nation ever to use nuclear weapons on a civilian populace) and the other largest terrorist nation on earth....Israel. Shame!!!

What people have been brainwashed into thinking that? Nobody I know. I am certain many Americans dont think that either, except for those whom feel that oligarchs are the shiz.

Originally posted by primus2012
People have been brainwashed to believe that hard work and maximum effort are evil.... And that there is no God.

It's NOT about "hard work and maximum effort". Even in a "perfect", utopian socialistic society, it would be EXPECTED that the individual puts in their share (aka: work) to get their share back, whatever that share might be. Eg. food, housing etc.

You are living the illusion that hard work is always rewarded while the reality is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

The majority of people in our society are not just rewarded for their work - the opposite: The most, hard working people usually get the least benefit since they will work for the profit of OTHERS, in fact many of the ultra-rich do not even have to work at all. THE SYSTEM works only by enslaving others.

One or several MUST work hard to increase the profit of a few, NOT for their own benefit.

As opposed to what you say, people are brainwashed that "hard work" and their effort will always pay out and benefit them - which is ironic living in a society where people are "employed" by others and more often than not working "for their boss" or "their company" while getting a measly pay in exchange which can barely keep them alive.

The ONLY occasion where your illusion is halfway true is for people who have their own business, entrepreneurs etc. where their own efforts would in fact benefit them directly (to some extent) but again, the majority of people are not directly working into their own wallet but FOR OTHERS, to increase their profit, NOT their own.

Fact is that nowadays people need two jobs to keep up with THE BASICS, to even be able to *exist*. And this is entirely effing wrong. The "new poor" are not people who are homeless begging for change on the streets. The "new poor" are people working 40+ hours per week in one or two jobs so they have a roof over their head and can (if they are lucky) pay gas, medical bills and groceries. What a great society this is!

reply to post by FlyersFan


Maybe it's time for a new kind of system to be implemented into failed countries. Why are people arguing about systems that were developed centuries ago when we clearly live in a totally different world with developments beyond the comprehension of Marx and Smith. Clearly people are brainwashed to focus on two systems that are both clearly flawed in the basis of an organized governing body with greed as its number one priority. Maybe there should be ultimatums for a new means of exchange instead of money. Clearly the relationship between people and money and the atrocities that have been committed against humanity in the mists of said relationships should be enough to show us that it's time to come up with something different. Yet the argument still ensues between two dated systems. Sad how paradoxical our human nature is, we have this advanced way of living in abundance but we are so selfish that its left most of us in need.

Good things

Originally posted by FreeThinkerbychoice
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Maybe it's time for a new kind of system to be implemented into failed countries.

There is no reason for a "new" system. It would be sufficient to address the shortcomings of existing systems, to cite the pope (lol) what we call "unregulated capitalism". Many countries already do it that way, basically implementing a western, capitalistic system but where certain elements are improved in some way, eg. socialist "elements" are mixed in.

The funny thing, YOU TOO (United States) already do this, for example pay taxes. You pay a percentage of your income to the government, you pay tax when you buy things. LOL, you pay $15 for a pack of cigs in Chicago or NY, $14 of that money is tax. HOW MORE SOCIALIST CAN IT EVEN GET?

If the system would be purely capitalist (as some believe), yes, correct, there would be no taxes, bailouts etc.etc., every company/individual would be on their own and their success would ONLY be depending on how much they work with no government influence WHATSOEVER.

Since this (obviously) is not the case, the entire discussion is moot since we already have "socialist aspects" in our economy...the rest is only minor things like WHERE tax money flows to..or the amount of tax. THE BASICS ARE THE SAME. Whether I take more tax from military spending and/or take more tax and increase it for healthcare/welfare etc...it's still the very same system. You/We are already "socialist" to some extent, and there is nothing wrong with "tweaking" the system.

The problem is that people are made to believe that socialism means the same as a communist, totalitarian regime. Being social just means that you are willing to share with the weaker ones in society. A socialist system is one of solidarity (or it should be).

Of course, enforced solidarity also means that you will have elements in society who play the system and will get financial or other assistance to which they normally would be not entitled, which is unfair to those who play by the rules, not to mention immoral.

But the same applies to a pure capitalistic system.

Think about all the abuses that occur in the financial world: banks, bailouts, sleazy deals with government officials, etc. Who gains from all the wars? Right, the defense industry: Halliburton, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, etc.

The problem is human. You either have empathy or you don't.

The concept in and of itself may not be evil, the problem as I see it is this: You would describe capitalism as bad since some folks get "left behind" (I just woke up and am really keeping this reply simple). Socialism does nothing different, it creates a ruling class (govt), that takes massive amounts of wealth, doles out what it sees fit, and keeps the rest for itself...in very simple terms. Look at good 'ol Hugo, he dies with a personal wealth of what...2 billion, while the common folk below him fight for his "free" stuff".

Has there ever been an experiment conducted where all members of a society work half of their day for a goverment job for no pay, then use the remainder of their towards capitalist pursuits which would be untaxed?

I wonder what the results would be like? I have ideas about what would happen.

Originally posted by butcherguy
Has there ever been an experiment conducted where all members of a society work half of their day for a goverment job for no pay, then use the remainder of their towards capitalist pursuits which would be untaxed?

What you are alluding to resembles a resource-based economy, which is - in my opinion - a nice concept.

Originally posted by slugger9787
The people of the world vote all the time
between socialism, communism and capitalism.

If given the opportunity, where do people mostly move to?
A country that is based on SOCIALISM?
A country that is based on COMMUNISM?
A country that is based on CAPITALISM?

Maybe "isms" aren't the answer.

reply to post by Directive5120


The people of the world vote all the time
between socialism, communism and capitalism.

If given the opportunity, where do people mostly move to?
A country that is based on SOCIALISM?
A country that is based on COMMUNISM?
A country that is based on CAPITALISM?

reply to post by Directive5120


what do you mean it is immoral.
According to whose definition of morality?
Atheism, Agnosticism, Christianity?

And ALL basic human nature is evil, bad.
Not half of it ie"empathy, you either have it or you don't"
Morals, you either have tham or you don't?
Same thing.

Both OP and the anti-communist bigots here are misinformed on what socialism really is about... especially from the aspect of where, when and why was it created in the first place.

Socialism and capitalism are actually very SIMILAR systems. They are just managed in a sightly different way, by a different crowd of people.

Wow, it just goes in circles. People just can't seem to grasp the fact that the socialism they loathe isn't even socialism, but corruption masked as state-socialism.

Anyway, most people I guess that are railing against this idea have been brought up in a country that hard McCarthy and all the cold war propaganda against communism, marxism and socialism, so I guess the conditioning runs deep.

Personally like I said, I prefer anarchism so I don't really hold to anything economic unless I think it frees us of government and corporate control, but when you look at it I suppose if it wasn't for the corruption a lot of these systems would work decently, maybe even some type of mixture of several of them.

At the end of the day socialism isn't causing the problems, it's just not been applied properly to benefit people as whole enough, but maybe capitalism hasn't either. If checks and balances protected people and the environment from corruption maybe things wouldn't be so bad, but it's those same small groups that just seem to warp any system put in place anyway. It's our ability to root out the corruption that's always been the problem, and our lack of ability to really pursue freedom from rulers (anarchism) that keeps us enslaved.

Maybe in the future, but left vs right, democratic vs republican, labour vs conservative, socialism vs capitalism, well we're just arguing and doing not much else while they fleece us hiding behind all those things. Maybe if we wake up enough we'll get to try most of these systems and see that they work pretty well if done right.

reply to post by Cabin
You said it well, the key word in your post was "utopic" . People like you belive in the good in our species, people like me see the bad, reason being if we can't fix the bad the good is overwhelmed and the bad prevails.............just my opinion.

Socialism on paper is great as long as everyone agrees and thats the key phrase "everyone agrees" as a species we can not agree on anything and as we populate to our next billion people it only gets worse.

Id tell you to research and learn about human nature but it sounds like your a person with convictions so you would probably ingnore our history and what we as a species really are...........so don't bother yourself with our history just hold on to your convictions, it may be all you have when reality sets in.

I went back and read some more post's and your thread should be a start on reality by the way everyone is attacking each other with the two biggies "hate and ridicule"...............find a way to have this coversation without these two human frailties and you have a start...................think it is possable??????

Socialism isn't evil; PEOPLE do evil. The human condition is one in which some are traumatized during their developmental stages, which induces them to prioritize power and status as more important than love.

In a utopian world (or heaven) where there are no traumatic events and there are no maladaptive compensative behaviors, then socialism would be great. No human on Earth has been spared the "human condition" as we appear to exist here to undergo trials and growth, by overcoming those trials.

Since human nature is one of constant struggle and psychological trauma, socialism is a dangerous political system. It isn't the pretty picture that is so popularly (mis)represented in the news. Just go LIVE in a truly socialist country for a few years and you'll discover first-hand why socialism is one of the most effective ways governments can restrict personal freedom, restrict personal pursuits of happiness, restrict personal levels of success, and even restrict the length of life.

Socialism is for p*ssies and weakling sheeple because it is the Nanny State presented as a benevolent parent to a child who willingly trusts and feeds from its mammaries.

It's the brighter side of communism and dictatorships and caliphates. But after you lose basic personal independence and personal freedom in true socialism, you might as well be a pawn slave in one of these other systems of total corruption and tyranny.

While Capitalism within a Republic form of democratic government isn't perfect, it is the best option yet available. It is one which empowers the best self-respect, self-governance, self-discipline, self-esteem, and all other manners of giving free reins to individuals who decide to make the best of what they've got and shoot for the moon. In no other country can an individual (from deepest poverty and from any ethnic background) have a brilliant idea that he/she can then cultivate into a big business, thus transcending from poor to 1%. No other country affords that opportunity to its citizens like America does on the scale that America does.

Meanwhile, there are people who do not want to take self-discipline or have self-respect that do not deserve any fruits from those who worked hard and RISKED ALL to achieve capitalist success. Socialism removes the reward aspect from the cause + effect equation. Even worse, socialism penalizes individuals who work hard or innovate harder for society. Socialism kills innovation and true success that benefits the evolution of society.

The true problem with our country right now is that we have a lot of fat pig politicians in federal office who have stronger loyalties to special interest groups because those special interest groups can provide better "incentives" than the common citizens can provide. Moreover, few common citizens care to put the effort into getting REAL news (not the PR pay-to-play stuff that goes on TV and major media) and studying each key issue to understand what is going on, how their politicians are doing on it, and how to vote on it. Additionally, each citizen should be aware of how the cartel media turns "reports" of an honest politician and paints his/her every move as dishonest in efforts to discredit and destroy the good guys. The cartel media or mainstream media have their own vested interests in not reporting the truth. They are PR spin houses for THEIR AGENDA, which includes amassing more power and more wealth. They can currently do this because the vast majority of the media consumers WANT the fake stories. It is the SHEEPLES' fault.

The democratic republic form of government REQUIRES individual participation. Before this age of self-gratification (which is not true self-respect, self-discipline, self-esteem, nor self-growth), the vast majority of the populace spent time and energy examining current political issues and participating in the political process to make sure the right outcomes could become realized.

We need strict, tight term limits on all politicians -- and ensure that even a common plumber or common secretary can realistically run for election because those political seats were created to be an honor for anyone (who wins popular vote) to SERVE the country, not leech from it as a professional career.

If we just cleaned up the Sheeple and the career politicians, we would have a far better society and nation than those dreaming of socialist phantasms could ever offer us.

While true perfect socialism seems like a Utopian ideal, it can never happen as it was originally intended. Human nature is the reason why that statement is the truth.

The REAL problem is not the system itself, the real problem is the people in charge of the system. As citizens in the U.S. ( I can only speak of the society to which I belong), We think that we can change the way the government manages the system which we live under, the unfortunate truth is that though on paper (for now) we can do just that, yet we fail to do so when the need arises. The average voter in the U.S. is lazy when it comes to keeping up on the doings of their representatives. Most are easily swayed by the most outlandish propaganda and re-elect proven liars. It happens in our Capitalist society, It will happen in a Socialist one as well.

This is not a pro-conservative or pro-liberal post, BOTH major parties have shown that NEITHER can be trusted to run this country in a fair and equitable manner.

Regardless of the social system that a country chooses to adhere to, as long as those in charge are allowed to pervert it to their own benefit; it will always fail.

Capitalism in the United States IS failing. Not because it is a poor system, but because it is managed by greedy, self-serving people. Socialism would fail in the U.S. just as easily. The public school system in the U.S. is essentially a socialist program, and it is atrocious. Why? Union pensions, Tenured teachers who no longer give a damn about the kids in their classes, and complete and utter mismanagement of curriculum (where the school takes it upon itself to propagandize social issues rather than stick to the essentials, which is what the system was supposedly created for in the first place). Notice that socialism fails for pretty much the same reason that capitalism does; greedy, self-serving people.

If you have a pair of shoes that look great, but are too small for your feet, what's the point of buying another good looking pair that is the same size? After all, you'll only be in the same position all over again.

I realize that my post probably doesn't shed any light on the discussion, but I think that due to the nature of humanity, it won't really matter if the system changes. We'll find a way to screw it up eventually.

reply to post by ProfessorChaos
You said it very well, we are who we are and nothing short of a compleat genetic change will change that.