People have been brainwashed to believe that socialism is evil...

The problem is, Capitalism is the alternative, touted as the only fair system. However, what we have in our western societies, which we have all seen in recent years, and even those with an IQ in single digits should be able to fathom, is NOT capitalism at all, but plain financial criminality.

In a system of capitalism, there are free markets, and the under-performers go out of business....simple! What we are seeing though is rampant fraud, and those commiting the financial crimes plunging the whole world into financial turmoil get a free pass and the taxpayer bails them out.
In a capitalist system, there would be NO bailouts, NO "too big to fail" institutions and criminal proceedings against the fraudsters and those in the political realm shielding them. Thus, we are not really living in a capitalist system either.

Without the bailouts, many big name banks would have collapsed long ago, due entirely to their own risky dealings and fraud. The result, and the biggest losers, would be other banks and big bondholders, who knew what they were getting into and deserve to lose everything, NOT be bailed out by the people who suffer whilst those who caused it remain in their mansions accumulating even more weallth.

reply to post by Britguy


Well said, Britguy.

By the way, I'd like to know where the evidence is that everyone believes that socialism is evil? Seems to me that if you breathe a word of negativity about socialism anywhere, socialists come out of the woodwork to eat you alive.

Good to see TheComte helping to dispel some of the misinformation/delusion too. Several of us have tried now many times to explain the easy to spot clear flaws in many of the arguments here. If they carry on going around in circles it just proves the point some of us are trying to get at : people would rather stick with false beliefs and propaganda that's been served to them than do a small check of what socialism actually is.

The next question is why so many people try to defend false information when they can be proven wrong by anyone who does take even a few minutes to check. Why put so much energy into an argument that's perpetuating false information and that can also make people doubt anything else you say in the future, because it's so clearly wrong?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by korgmeister

 

The banking system is another example of socialism sorry to say. Just because they are making money doesn't mean they are not socialist. That would be like saying there are no socialists/progressives and even communists who are rich... Just look at what the elites are trying to do by controlling everyone, and everything and they claim it is being done "for the good of all...

Didn't you know that under socialism there must be a central bank?... You can pretend that "it is a bank for the people" but the truth is that it is a form of control, and control is the force behind socialism.

Socialism seeks to control private property, and it seeks to control the people "for the good of all"...

Why don't you go ahead and explain to me which system does not use a bank; private or central?

That's a WHOOOLE other topic that has nothing to do with economical systems like socialism or capitalism -- regardless of how negatively private and central banks all hurt the economy; these systems address issues which have very little to do with banks. As is most of life because the banks have pretty much all of the control regardless of what anyone wants to do about it. I hate to break it to you, but ALL banks are bad for the economy, too, because they introduce money which, beforehand, never existed. This devalues the already-existing money because money, as anything else, is valued based on supply and demand... and if the supply goes up, the value goes down.

Originally posted by robhines people would rather stick with false beliefs and propaganda that's been served to them than do a small check of what socialism actually is.

It amuses me (slightly) that I am supposed to believe socialism is not a disease simply because an obvious socialist tells me it isn't and insists that before I can decide that it is, I must do some "research" and read all the contrived false arguments and lies that socialists are constantly churning out.

Yeah. Dude. I know that socialists don't believe socialism is evil. That's pretty obvious. Charles Manson doesn't believe he's a lunatic.

Originally posted by BrianFlanders

Originally posted by robhines people would rather stick with false beliefs and propaganda that's been served to them than do a small check of what socialism actually is.

It amuses me (slightly) that I am supposed to believe socialism is not a disease simply because an obvious socialist tells me it isn't and insists that before I can decide that it is, I must do some "research" and read all the contrived false arguments and lies that socialists are constantly churning out.

Yeah. Dude. I know that socialists don't believe socialism is evil. That's pretty obvious. Charles Manson doesn't believe he's a lunatic.

edit on 9-3-2013 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

What an amazingly compelling, well-versed argument.

You must really know what you're talking about.

reply to post by BrianFlanders


This is pretty funny. How about pick up any first year economics textbook and read chapter one? Or, are you saying the education system is a socialist plot?

Pray tell, from where do you get your definition of socialism? I wouldn't mind reading that source.

Bottom line for me?

Have any form of government you want.

As long as I can continue to do what I want, earn what I want, spend what I want, buy what I want, and can continue to self-determine as I wish, then we're cool.

Mess with any of the above?

And we'll have an issue.

Originally posted by BrianFlanders

Originally posted by robhines people would rather stick with false beliefs and propaganda that's been served to them than do a small check of what socialism actually is.

It amuses me (slightly) that I am supposed to believe socialism is not a disease simply because an obvious socialist tells me it isn't and insists that before I can decide that it is, I must do some "research" and read all the contrived false arguments and lies that socialists are constantly churning out.

Yeah. Dude. I know that socialists don't believe socialism is evil. That's pretty obvious. Charles Manson doesn't believe he's a lunatic.

edit on 9-3-2013 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

I'm an anarchist, not socialist, but think libertarian socialism could be a good step towards anarchism, so that corporations and governments can't be the vampires they currently are. Anyway you make yourself look daft by saying what you do, (evil, Charles Manson, etc) I don't really need to help. Kind of self-defeating, but then again not understanding what you're arguing about does exactly the same thing.

The idea of sharing wealth so that the whole of society benefits instead of a group of selfish morons hoarding everything is evil. Well done. Ah yeah, wanting people to have access to things that creates a better society all around means you want to be a leech and you're jealous of people hoarding loads of cash. OK.

socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

www.britannica.com...

Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy. "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, or citizen ownership of equity. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them. They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.

Proponents of state socialism advocate the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange as a strategy for implementing socialism. In contrast, libertarian socialism proposes the traditional view of direct worker's control of the means of production and opposes the use of state power to achieve such an arrangement, opposing both parliamentary politics and state ownership.

en.wikipedia.org...

A human being who believes that the most harmonious state of affairs would be for all to get a fair shot at financial sucess. This belief is not motivated by his own selfishness as a capitalist would have you think, but is in actuality an honorable difference of opinion. In the 1930's farmers in the mid west were plowing their corn under because it was unprofitable, and at the same time millions across America were starving. Capitalists see this as logical, while socialists find it abhorrent. In short, socialism is about production for use, not profit.

"Everyone calls me a socialist because I think universal health care is more important than Ross Perot having 28 cars."

www.urbandictionary.com...

Originally posted by beezzer
Bottom line for me?

Have any form of government you want.

As long as I can continue to do what I want, earn what I want, spend what I want, buy what I want, and can continue to self-determine as I wish, then we're cool.

Mess with any of the above?

And we'll have an issue.

Earn what you want while doing what you want?

Easy, Beez, you don't want to sound like one of those kooky super-entitled kids out there.

I sure hope you're not an aspiring artist or scientist!

reply to post by Druscilla


Really funny thread.
Everything in public school and the media has been talking bout how GREAT socialism is, where is the "brainwashing"?
Half the country is on the dole, and its going broke, when socialized "obamacare enters the scene, that will do it,
if we are not collapsed already.
Why are people who hate socialism "ignorant"? Maybe they know something you socialists don't,
mainly the old saying "there aint no such thing as a free lunch".
Truer words were never said.
A libertarian political science teacher in high school got me started on the freedom train, he was teaching real economics, how things really work, when the "brainwashers against socialism" found out he disapeared(fired).
Another "brainwasher" replaced him, couldn't stop talking about how socialism was the "future".
So I voted for Carter the communist, spent four years out of work while every factory in town shut down,
and did a lot of reading.
Read Atlas Srughed.
Four times.
The book that is second in sales behind the Bible, sells 500,000 copies a year, none of the "brainwashers"
you talk about ever mention it, or the author.
Read Robert Ringer, Harry Brown, James P. Hogan, L. Neil Smith.
Yeah, I know I am Ignorant because anybody who disagrees with you just has to be, right?
Can't be that you are the ignorant one, is it?
Ever occurred to you?
When America was free there were no guarantees, and people were well off, happy for the most part,
and they built the greatest, most powerfull, wealthy country on earth.
And they built it doing exactly the OPPOSITE of everything you beleive in!
And you say the non socialist is "ignorant"!!!
While you don't believe the evidence that is right before your eyes.
I grew up in America, cokes 7 cents, candybars a nickle, watched over the years, as it has gradually become "socialized", and poorer and weaker in the process.
Whats funny though, is where the "brainwashing" is, everything in the media, liberal(now "progressive) politicians,
college professors, even most holy roller types, they all espouse the virtures of "socialized life",
which is basically stealing from the most productive to feed the most parasitic.
I am an objectivist with a libertarian bent, but if anything its because I use my mind, unlike socialists, who listen to the darkest parts of their psyche, without realising it.
Its the "socialists" who are doing the "brainwashing", and I am not who I am because of it, but in spite of it.
So keep your housing projects, food stamps, free baindaids for broken limbs, cough syurp for the flu, a half a loaf
life while the elites live high on the hog.
Which is what "socialism" is really all about, creating a fudaist system where the elites rule in the name of the govt while the rest eat sawdust and work 17 hrs a day.
Ever read "1984"? Animal farm?
I did.
In the sixth grade.
How ignorant of me.

Originally posted by LightOrange


Earn what you want while doing what you want?

Yes.

Easy, Beez, you don't want to sound like one of those kooky super-entitled kids out there.

Nope. Just a hard working individual.

I sure hope you're not an aspiring artist or scientist!

Freedom to do what you want is a great thing.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by LightOrange


Earn what you want while doing what you want?

Yes.

Easy, Beez, you don't want to sound like one of those kooky super-entitled kids out there.

Nope. Just a hard working individual.

I sure hope you're not an aspiring artist or scientist!

Freedom to do what you want is a great thing.

I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

If you're an artist in today's society, then chances are you're making pennies.

I'm a web designer and I earn $90 an hour. I WANT $1160 an hour. Something is wrong with the system!

Originally posted by LightOrange


I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

If you're an artist in today's society, then chances are you're making pennies.

I'm a web designer and I earn $90 an hour. I WANT $1160 an hour. Something is wrong with the system!

It's up to you to make yourself worth 1160/hr. Not the system.

Originally posted by Britguy
The problem is, Capitalism is the alternative, touted as the only fair system. However, what we have in our western societies, which we have all seen in recent years, and even those with an IQ in single digits should be able to fathom, is NOT capitalism at all, but plain financial criminality.

In a system of capitalism, there are free markets, and the under-performers go out of business....simple! What we are seeing though is rampant fraud, and those commiting the financial crimes plunging the whole world into financial turmoil get a free pass and the taxpayer bails them out.
In a capitalist system, there would be NO bailouts, NO "too big to fail" institutions and criminal proceedings against the fraudsters and those in the political realm shielding them. Thus, we are not really living in a capitalist system either.

Without the bailouts, many big name banks would have collapsed long ago, due entirely to their own risky dealings and fraud. The result, and the biggest losers, would be other banks and big bondholders, who knew what they were getting into and deserve to lose everything, NOT be bailed out by the people who suffer whilst those who caused it remain in their mansions accumulating even more weallth.

You realise that everything you talk about comes from the govt, don't you?
Monopolies can't exist without the govt, corporations were created by the govt, and nourished with tax breaks and incentives.
And the nail on the coffin, the fed reserve act, which included the income tax, in 1913.
Roosevelt finished things off, declaring bankruptcy, and signing over everything, including all Americans,
over to the fed.
The fed is a private agency, owned by europeans, the european owners get the hay bales of money, pay their govts off the top(taxes) which funds their socialist countries, and the owners get the rest.
The europeans are going broke because we are going broke, no matter how hard the other private agency,
the I.R.S wrings us for money, can't get blood outta a turnip.
No, America has not been "free enterprise" for a long time, and its' been eating through the wealth it created when it was free.
And now, again with tax incentives, manufacturing is going overseas, so our country can be turned into a giant park
for the elites to hike in, while theres plenty of cheap labor in the "service" economy, somebodies got to serve the coffee, after all.

Originally posted by steven2977
reply to post by Druscilla

 

when socialized "obamacare enters the scene, that will do it,
if we are not collapsed already.
Why are people who hate socialism "ignorant"?

Obamacare isn't socialist. It's closer to fascist. The government doesn't own the means of production.

Ask me again why people who hate socialism are ignorant.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by LightOrange


I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

If you're an artist in today's society, then chances are you're making pennies.

I'm a web designer and I earn $90 an hour. I WANT $1160 an hour. Something is wrong with the system!

It's up to you to make yourself worth 1160/hr. Not the system.

Not exactly on-the-ball when it comes to sarcasm, are ya

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

Ew.

Disclosure. I was raised a spoiled brat. So my father had me shovel horse manure every Saturday morning growing up. (yes, we had stables)

Shovel enough "poop" will end up humbling anyone. But you know what?

I can handle a shovel now.

I can always find work.

I can always dig a ditch or shovel poop.

I will never be unemployed.

And I will be the best damned poop shoveler the world has ever seen. Because I found pride in doing a job. I found worth in accomplishing a task. I also found that regardless of your job, what it is, is important.

But not important enough to be paid a living wage, gotcha

Originally posted by LightOrange

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by LightOrange


I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

If you're an artist in today's society, then chances are you're making pennies.

I'm a web designer and I earn $90 an hour. I WANT $1160 an hour. Something is wrong with the system!

Nope. Kinda slow that way.

It's up to you to make yourself worth 1160/hr. Not the system.

Not exactly on-the-ball when it comes to sarcasm, are ya