Why will people argue Creation vs. Evolution when it is possible to have both?

Evolution doesn't require a supernatural element, it 'works' perfectly fine without it.

Inserting a 'god', merely adds an unnecessarily complicated element to a scientific model on nothing but the claims made by a bronze age cult.

Creation and Evolution are not equal proposals, to even mention them comparatively is essentially dishonest TBH...

reply to post by Prezbo369

Evolution doesn't require a supernatural element, it 'works' perfectly fine without it.

Inserting a 'god', merely adds an unnecessarily complicated element to a scientific model on nothing but the claims made by a bronze age cult.

Creation and Evolution are not equal proposals, to even mention them comparatively is essentially dishonest TBH...

Hold on a second. Personally, I don't believe any god had any part in developing any aspect of this world other than through fictional literature and various related aspects of culture. I do, however, think there is a basic underlying principle that gives every other law of nature a direction, a purpose. It doesn't have to be conscious, it could just be a functioning mechanism akin to the mechanism that drives a seedling to begin the process of becoming an oak. I call it, for lack of a better term, law of preservation. A physical law that slows chaos down just enough so that it underlines weaknesses rather than just all-out destroying everything, and giving order a chance to clean up after chaos, refining the world in the process.

I don't think this principle requires worship, as it isn't a conscious entity. I do think the principle deserves veneration, as it has many things to teach us about life, the world, and the universe. Why can't we learn from physics? Why can't physics be applied philosophically? Why is it that so few people see the spirituality in physics?

reply to post by SplitInfinity


BECAUSE you can't have both.... It's either CRETANISM or EVILUTION! (Ed Babinski, available on www.talkorigins.org...) - READ IT!.. They are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE concepts... WHY? Because there MUST be a mechanism for CREATING the CREATOR...

If we say another !creator created the creator! we have CRETANISM...
If we say NOTHING created the creator we're talking NONSENSE and still in the realms of CRETANISM...
If we exclude the CREATOR we are only left with EVILUTION from chemical parts that react in certain ways and form the building blocks of life...

JESUS, This is CRETANISM or EVILUTION 101... The Basics

Star anyway!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Hold on a second. Personally, I don't believe any god had any part in developing any aspect of this world other than through fictional literature and various related aspects of culture. I do, however, think there is a basic underlying principle that gives every other law of nature a direction, a purpose. It doesn't have to be conscious, it could just be a functioning mechanism akin to the mechanism that drives a seedling to begin the process of becoming an oak. I call it, for lack of a better term, law of preservation. A physical law that slows chaos down just enough so that it underlines weaknesses rather than just all-out destroying everything, and giving order a chance to clean up after chaos, refining the world in the process.

I don't think this principle requires worship, as it isn't a conscious entity. I do think the principle deserves veneration, as it has many things to teach us about life, the world, and the universe. Why can't we learn from physics? Why can't physics be applied philosophically? Why is it that so few people see the spirituality in physics?

Yes that's very nice

I'm well aware of your beliefs, infact I'm sure most of the folk on these boards are too tbh, but it's unclear as to why you chose to reply to my post with your specific beliefs...

However I will say this, you're still under the illusion that you're neither a theist nor an atheist. I have explained to you in the past why this position is intellectually dishonest but you keep on attempting to sneer and look down on both groups.

Also, I think most people fail to see 'spirituality' in physics because.........well 'spirituality' is a absolutely useless term.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Just to clarify and expand the logic in my last debunking of the idea of creationism & evolution being possible...

If a CREATOR creates evolution and then abandons evolution to do its thing, unattended we can only PROVE EVOLUTION as the creator left no evidence of itself and disappeared at the start of The Universe.

If a CREATOR created The Universe but did NOT create evolution (so is still creating) then why is there NO EVIDENCE of a CREATOR and a huge amount of evidence of evolution? - Again, no PROOF of a creator then NO CREATOR for all intents and purposes, in REALITY.

If a CREATOR creates evolution but TINKERS now and then we have CREATIONISM and something that is NOT QUITE EVOLUTION.

I really am trying to make a created universe compatible with evolution but the EVIDENCE and PROOF = TRUTH (or not if missing) problem persists. We have NO CONCRETE, PRIMARY EVIDENCE of a CREATOR but plenty for Evolution..

Your mind has resolved this problem by removing the need for concrete, primary evidence of a creator (either now, or before the universe (and evolution) were created)... Anything's possible in your HEAD but this is a question about REALITY and PROOF... Glad you're happy with your IMAGINARY COMPROMISE though - I don't like thinking in black & white either but this is a binary issue IMHO.

I didn't want to dissect your post as I find putting the logical conclusion out there more useful. Cheers.

reply to post by salainen


OK...lot's of questions you ask.

As far as the Moses thing...just Google Moses crossed Reed sea not Red sea and all sorts of info will come to you.

As far as my statement about whether there is or is not a GOD and how the evidence points against a GODS existence...although I hope there is one...the reality of there really being no evidence to support the existence of a GOD is self evident. The only thing people of faith bring to the table for evidence...which is not evidence at all...is what is written in one ancient text or another. There is absolutely no scientific...logic bases tangible evidence to support the existence of a GOD...although I with this were not true...wishing for something will not make it be a reality.

As far as Chimps and Humns haveing so much similarity within each of their Genomes...that is because both species shared a common ancestor...it this has been Genetically Proven and is a FACT beyond reproach.

As far as my statements concerning Space/Time Universal Geometry...I don't specifically remember how I know such knowledge as there is a lot of stuff rattling about up in my head...but if I were you...I would look at QUANTUM MECHANICS and how Quantum Particle/Wave Forms such as Quarks, Glueons, Mesons, Leptons, Electrons....etc...all Quantum Particle/Wave Forms that make up all MATTER in our Universe...as all Matter which is at is Atomic Level...Protons, Neutrons and the orbiting Electrons...IS COMPLETELY COMPRISED OF QUANTA. Thus all Matter is essentially Quantum Energy.

In order for Matter to exist and of course as I stated Matter is just Quantum Particle/Wave Forms...it must have a Universal Reality with Space/Time and a MINIMUM of 10 or 11...there are probably more....Dimensional States.

This means such representations as the other very nice AND PATIENT WITH ME as I can be a pain in the ass...ATS Member had posted for my benefit....such representations are for the purpose of teaching and giving a person the ability to at the very least associate such Higher Dimensional States given the limitations of the Human Minds ability to comprehend any Higher Dimensional State than 4-D.

But MAKE NO MISTAKE...such representations are NOT A REALITY and do not adequately show or explain the true reality of our 10 plus Dimensional Universal Reality. Such things as described in those representations such as casted shadows in a 5-D, 4-D, 3-D, 2-D, 1-D Universal State are but Fantasy and cannot actually exist.

Split Infinity

reply to post by LittleByLittle


Have you ever considered the possibility that everything exists and works and is interconnected asit is because IT HAS TO BE for us and this Universe and possibly...actually MOST LIKELY...a Multiverse to exist?

Split Infinity

reply to post by bloodreviara


I feel the same and as a true follower of the tenets of Science and the Scientific Method I cannot rule out the possibility of the existence of a GOD or for that matter perhaps several GODS...but I am happy that several Christian Sects including the Roman Catholics have Publicly Admitted....and this was done by Pope Johm Paul II....that Humanity exists due to the process of Biological Evolution.

When he announced this the Italian Press ran the Headlines...Pope say's we come from Monkey's!

It was not a scientifically correct or actual mirrored statement by the Pope...but I enjoyed it anyway's. LOL!

Split Infinity

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I am happy you are not angry with me for my deception...and I have to admit getting a small thrill in doing it...but such is the nature of a person who tends to know too much.

I respect your ability to have Faith giving the overwhealming evidence against such a thing but you must ALWAYS remember...the Bible is a collection of stories put together by the church at their own discretion and it is well known that many...MANY ancient texts were left out of it that differed in meaning and stated truths that the church selected collection of texts points to as a truth.

There does not exist a single original Gospel or Story written by any Apostle or any listed Author of such texts in the Bible. EVERYTHING in the Bible was taken from the writtings of other men who claim that what they have written was the actual written words of such Apostles and other Men of GOD.

Knowing this as a FACT as well as ALL sects of Christianity admitting this is a FACT...I would be careful to base my Faith upon such possible incorrect truths.

Split Infinity

reply to post by colin42


Thank you Colin42, that was helpful and the best example I've heard. I'll admint I have not done extensive research into evolution but I do know of several studies that show eveolutionary change as fact.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

I respect your ability to have Faith giving the overwhealming evidence against such a thing but you must ALWAYS remember...the Bible is a collection of stories put together by the church at their own discretion and it is well known that many...MANY ancient texts were left out of it that differed in meaning and stated truths that the church selected collection of texts points to as a truth.

I have covered nearly all texts I can find. The same story emerges. Most movies hold the same story. Most books of literature hold the same story. The Bible holds the seeds.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

There does not exist a single original Gospel or Story written by any Apostle or any listed Author of such texts in the Bible. EVERYTHING in the Bible was taken from the writtings of other men who claim that what they have written was the actual written words of such Apostles and other Men of GOD.

Knowing this as a FACT as well as ALL sects of Christianity admitting this is a FACT...I would be careful to base my Faith upon such possible incorrect truths.

Split Infinity

At one time in my life, I was a skeptic, looking for these types of evidence against the Bible. They do not hold up. The Bible has much more evidence in support of its authenticity than against. The arguments on the side of the skeptic are weak at best.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Knowing this as a FACT as well as ALL sects of Christianity admitting this is a FACT...I would be careful to base my Faith upon such possible incorrect truths.

Split Infinity

The Bible holds the highest axioms of truth we possess as a world community.

Originally posted by PrivateSi
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

BECAUSE you can't have both.... It's either CRETANISM or EVILUTION! (Ed Babinski, available on www.talkorigins.org...) - READ IT!.. They are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE concepts... WHY? Because there MUST be a mechanism for CREATING the CREATOR...

If we say another !creator created the creator! we have CRETANISM...
If we say NOTHING created the creator we're talking NONSENSE and still in the realms of CRETANISM...
If we exclude the CREATOR we are only left with EVILUTION from chemical parts that react in certain ways and form the building blocks of life...

JESUS, This is CRETANISM or EVILUTION 101... The Basics

Star anyway!

edit on 25-2-2013 by PrivateSi because: markup, link

edit on 25-2-2013 by PrivateSi because: spelling - I'd like to add, you are WRONG!

Sorry but your reply has no Logic to it.

There IS Proof to state that EVOLUTION is a FACT. It can be stated as a FACT as we have an irrefutable line of LOGIC to back it as such....we have the existence of a FOSSIL RECORD....we have the reality of proving Biological Evolutionary development through Genetics and comparisons of thousands of Species Genomes....we have the absolute proven existence which occurs all around us every day of Quantum Evolution which is the precursor of Biological Evolution....we have MANS practicle application of both Quantum Evolution and Biological Evolution as nothing say's PROOF OF REALITY more than being able to create or do something using a Process as it is IMPOSSIBLE to deny the existence or reality of a Process such as Quantum and Biological Evolution if a person USES them as a means to an end.

On the other hand....the existence of a GOD creating our Universe using these two process that are Quantum and Biological Evolution cannot be disproven.

The existence of a GOD creating our Universe and everything including all LIFE within it without using Quantum and Biological Evolution is a EXTREMELY LOW PROBABILITY and given the existence of Proof of the REALITY of Quantum and Biological Evolution....this probability boarders near but not at ZERO%.

Thus...we can state this with 100% surity.

Based upon Probability and Logic...one cannot state with 100% certainty a GOD does not exist in our Universe.
This also means one cannot state with 100% certainty that a more than one GOD does not exist in our Universe.

One can state with 100% certainty that Biological Evolution is a REALITY as well as is responsible for the development of Man as well as all Genomed Mapped Species.

Since Biological Evolution is a FACT...Quantum Evolution must also be a FACT...although one can state...IF a GOD or GODS exist in our Universal Reality then it is a near 100% Probability that Quantum and Biological Evolution would be the process such a GOD or GODS would use.

Split Infinity

reply to post by PrivateSi


I will answer you in the most possible direct and specific way.

The Science and Logic used and identified which gives us the realities of Proof has shown us that there currently is NONE to back the existence of a GOD. Ancient texts such as the Bible and others are NOT PROOF as they do not provide evidence that is proveable.

If a person had never thought or heard of the idea of a GOD and used all available proof now existing...they would NOT use the concept of a GOD in ANYTHING pertaining to the UNIVERSE based upon such evidence.

I only base my reality upon what can or cannot be proven...thus...I KNOW EVOLUTION to be a reality as well as KNOW I cannot rule out the possibility that a GOD may exist.

Split Infinity

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Look at the Church' refusal to place the Gospels of Judas and the Gospels of Mary Magdelyne into the Bible as the base four Apostels in the Bible state in their Gospels that Jesus was the actual Son of GOD.

The Gospels of Mary and Judas state that Jesus taught how ANYONE could be the Son's and Daughter's of GOD if they simply followed his teachings.

This is something that is easily found in the Vaticans web page as well as has been written about by many Biblical Scholors.

Split Infinity

This topic is a new ending battle. PP is right , you can not believe in both. You either believe God or you believe in evolution. The theory of evolution does not state that God made the universe, it states everything evolved from a single organism. You cannot say you believe both. Does the bible say " God put an amoeba on the earth and over time , that amoeba slowly somehow evolved into almost 9 million different species" it does not. So therefore to say its possible to believe both is hypocritical. Most will say evolution can't say that because scientist have no proof of God. There is no way to prove humans came from a microscopic one called organism, there's just no way. A human's brain is so complex compared to a chimp. They may be close in size and shaped similar, by
It you don't see a chimp being capable of anything a human can.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


You have to understand...I do not post what I do for the purpose of pushing some AGENDA. I would be more than happy if there was proof that EVERYTHING written in the Bible was a FACT....but the reality is there is evidence against this.

I am just stating the REALITIES based upon evidence, logic and provable FACTS.

What those realities and facts turn out to be is what I post about...not what I want them to be...don't want them to be...or wish them to be.

I have found that many members base their posts upon their BELIEFS or what they wish a reality to be.

I DO NOT!

Split Infinity

reply to post by EnochWasRight


This is not relavent to this topic. I also hold the lessons in the Bible up as lessons most important and necessary for Humanity....still....this does not mean that something so important to Humanity is something that was written by a GOD.

Split Infinity

reply to post by GoldenOne23


I will use simple logic to disprove your statement.

Let us represent belief in a GOD as (A).

Let us represent the reality of Evolution...since it has been proven as well as we use it in practicle applications all the time in Pharmacology and Genetic Engineering....as (B).

Now let's look at Probability and Certainty.

There is a 100% Probability of FACT that we do NOT have the proof a GOD DOES NOT EXIST. Thus (A)=1

There is a 100% Probability of FACT that Evolution exists. Thus (B) =1

There is a 100% Probability of FACT that we do NOT have the proof that GOD created the Universe and life on Earth without EVOLUTION. We will represent this FACT as (C) thus (C)=2

Thus (A+B-C=0)

When all Axioms of Concepts cancell out Logic Dictates a Freedom of Possibility.

Thus Logic Dictates the REALITY of Evolution can coexist with one Belief in the possibility of a GOD.

Split Infinity