The Free Will Conspiracy of the Bible

Originally posted by Shema
reply to post by 1Agnostic1

 

I love your last line when you proclaim that nothing makes sense and that believers are too scared to believe that. I guess everything makes sense to you though, right?

Nothing makes sense in the Bible, no.
And yes, it's clear to me. Read my posts.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by windword

 

Can we separate what the church says and does from what the bible says? Because the church says and does all of the things that you accuse it of saying and doing.

This is what the bible says. You have free will to love or to sin? The outcome of your decision is in God's hands. He is the judge and his judgments are righteous. If you sin in error your judgment will likely be soft, but if you sin out of the sinful desire in your heart, than you can expect to be severely punished.

Luke 12:47-48
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Didn't the Catholic Church create the Bible? How can we separate the two when they teach the same thing?

So, according to you and the Bible, I can do one of two things, love or sins. Is life that black and white for you? Is there nothing else in life but love and sin? What about adventure, curiosity, risk, and indulgence? Are those things all black and white too?

The scripture you cite is a sad commentary on a life of beatings from a "master." It's a blame the victim mentality and is far from healthy. In this reality, there is no free will, only duty and obedience.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by windword

 

FREE WILL is Inverse proportional to Knowledge.
Thats true for everything we do. Example, I love the taste of peanuts but if i am allergic to it and i know it then either i behave wisely and accept it or whine but accept or try a bit of peanuts and take the consequences.
God set an order in the universe and every act leads to its natural consequences. And we as humans are incapable of comprehending the consequences of each act, especially as each act starts a ripple effect. Its just too much information to process.
So now if God in His Mercy informed us what to avoid and thats what is called "Sin" then do i trust that God is doing it for my own good or i think He is selfish?!!
So just like Peanuts are sinful for me,
few acts are sinful to any human in general. Example, God informed ursury is sin, but humans tried it and based the whole economy on it, leading to the economic crisis.

If you know that you are allergic to peanuts, you can use your free will to avoid them, taking control of your life. But, if you didn't know that you had a peanut allergy, you may blame yourself for being a sinner, when ignorance, not sin is the culprit.

But if you had a peanut allergy and were addicted to peanuts, but knew that peanuts were harmful, you would need to employ some self control over your addiction, if you wanted to be healthy.

Self control needs to be included in your equation, ei. free will, proportional to knowledge, proportional to self control. Or, if I may (K)nowledge / (F)ree will x (S)elf control.

reply to post by windword

If you know that you are allergic to peanuts, you can use your free will to avoid them, taking control of your life. But, if you didn't know that you had a peanut allergy, you may blame yourself for being a sinner, when ignorance, not sin is the culprit.

what you said is right but also if i dont know about allergy and i am told not to have peanuts, i have more free will and i whine to give it up, more knowledge makes me stop whining but also less free will.
We are taking the analogy in two different ways.

reply to post by windword


Why would anyone not want to be obedient to love? It's not like anyone is screaming OBEY LOVE. Or is he? I mean look at the world has sin not become utterly sinful? Isn't it time we all become obedient to love? You are allowed to do anything if your true intentions are love. Just don't confuse lust with love.

Originally posted by windword

Didn't the Catholic Church create the Bible? How can we separate the two when they teach the same thing?

So, according to you and the Bible, I can do one of two things, love or sins. Is life that black and white for you? Is there nothing else in life but love and sin? What about adventure, curiosity, risk, and indulgence? Are those things all black and white too?

The scripture you cite is a sad commentary on a life of beatings from a "master." It's a blame the victim mentality and is far from healthy. In this reality, there is no free will, only duty and obedience.

Love is truth, everything done is love is done in truth. Anything done outside of love is against the truth.

Scripture also says he only disciplines those he loves as sons. And it is also said that we are made in his image. He wants us to see him like a father.

In Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

You can see that this is his way to help us grow. He allows us to choose what is done in truth and what is done against the truth. You are the one who determines the outcome. You are judged by your choices. What is unfair about this? Why would anyone want to go down any path but the one that leads to truth? The bible says love but we argue about its message. Can there be any truth found if we are quarreling?

The Dead Sea scrolls predate the Catholic Church to anything historical except a claim that is made by them. They did not have to change the words. They said the Pope was the equal to Christ. Men were told to worship the Pope and hang their faith on his every word. Everyone who didn’t agree with them they killed. Men like me who would have no use for their "Religion" if I didn’t keep my mouth shut they would lock me up and likely kill me. I was Anti Church; therefore I was a son of Satan that was preaching something other than the interpretation that the church claimed belonged to them. I would have been killed in there witch hunt.

And they are right that interpretation does belong to them. Christ has much more power than the church gives him. They are either afraid to call people to righteousness, or they truly have believed a lie.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by windword

 

Why would anyone not want to be obedient to love? It's not like anyone is screaming OBEY LOVE. Or is he? I mean look at the world has sin not become utterly sinful? Isn't it time we all become obedient to love? You are allowed to do anything if your true intentions are love. Just don't confuse lust with love.

Sacgamer,

The God of the Bible, ie., the Old Testament isn't "all about love," but he was all about wrath, jealousy, killing, raping , on and on and on. He demanded that his laws, that weren't based in love at all, be obeyed without question, on penalty of death. And he wanted to be worshiped as no other.

What kind of God was this Yahweh, that he was so obsessed with mankind's intellectual abilities, yet he had to command worship? If they were created in "God's" image, why isn't free will part of his image? Isn't that was any father would want of a son, to become a self determined, confident individual exercising his free will?

When I see what "GOD" created, I see mountain ranges that take my breath away. Flocks of birds that take off in a rush and cover the sky. I see whales breaching for joy in a seemingly infinite ocean. I see a crystal blue dome of sky dotted with clouds during the day, and a canopy of of stars, stretching into forever at night.



I don't believe that this Bible god character is the god of love that you're looking for.

reply to post by windword


I am not looking. I am found.

reply to post by 1Agnostic1


i agree with your logical argument against deistic freewill.

Although i would say your will is as free as your next breath. Try to resist the urge to breath... youll wake up on the floor doing it whether you want to or not.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by windword

Didn't the Catholic Church create the Bible? How can we separate the two when they teach the same thing?

So, according to you and the Bible, I can do one of two things, love or sins. Is life that black and white for you? Is there nothing else in life but love and sin? What about adventure, curiosity, risk, and indulgence? Are those things all black and white too?

The scripture you cite is a sad commentary on a life of beatings from a "master." It's a blame the victim mentality and is far from healthy. In this reality, there is no free will, only duty and obedience.

Luke 12:47-48 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked

Love is truth, everything done is love is done in truth. Anything done outside of love is against the truth.

Scripture also says he only disciplines those he loves as sons. And it is also said that we are made in his image. He wants us to see him like a father.

In Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Spoken like an abusive husband who beats his wife for her own good, or a master who beats his slave in order to make them better servants.

You can see that this is his way to help us grow. He allows us to choose what is done in truth and what is done against the truth. You are the one who determines the outcome. You are judged by your choices. What is unfair about this? Why would anyone want to go down any path but the one that leads to truth? The bible says love but we argue about its message. Can there be any truth found if we are quarreling?

Now your justifying the reason why one should give up their free will in a beautiful, but empty, promise of truth and love, after all the free will has been beaten out of us by our loving master.

The Dead Sea scrolls predate the Catholic Church to anything historical except a claim that is made by them. They did not have to change the words. They said the Pope was the equal to Christ.

What!? Nope! There is nothing about Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church or the Pope in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Men were told to worship the Pope and hang their faith on his every word. Everyone who didn’t agree with them they killed. Men like me who would have no use for their "Religion" if I didn’t keep my mouth shut they would lock me up and likely kill me. I was Anti Church; therefore I was a son of Satan that was preaching something other than the interpretation that the church claimed belonged to them. I would have been killed in there witch hunt.

And they are right that interpretation does belong to them. Christ has much more power than the church gives him. They are either afraid to call people to righteousness, or they truly have believed a lie.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the church was right to kill non-believers?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by windword

 

If you know that you are allergic to peanuts, you can use your free will to avoid them, taking control of your life. But, if you didn't know that you had a peanut allergy, you may blame yourself for being a sinner, when ignorance, not sin is the culprit.

what you said is right but also if i dont know about allergy and i am told not to have peanuts, i have more free will and i whine to give it up, more knowledge makes me stop whining but also less free will.
We are taking the analogy in two different ways.

More knowledge doesn't equal less free will. It equals the opportunity to make better choices.

reply to post by windword


yes, more knowledge=>better choices
also
more knowledge=> less bad choices.
So free will is what? Ability to do what one wants or to do what is right??
Submitting Free will to a higher Souce doesnt impede in choices like blue or pink, chocolate or vanila. It just makes a person do the right things and avoid wrong choices.
So more free will is only required to do something wrong. But yes in ignorance or knowingly. And a human being doesnt have the mental ability to know everything.
And when done knowingly, well then why complain about natural consequences that has already been warned of(hell)?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by windword

 

yes, more knowledge=>better choices
also
more knowledge=> less bad choices.
So free will is what? Ability to do what one wants or to do what is right??
Submitting Free will to a higher Souce doesnt impede in choices like blue or pink, chocolate or vanila. It just makes a person do the right things and avoid wrong choices.

Submitting ones free will, in this example, is like asking God to choose for you between pink or blue, instead of choosing the one you like and accepting the consequences.

So more free will is only required to do something wrong. But yes in ignorance or knowingly. And a human being doesnt have the mental ability to know everything.

(Bangs head against wall!)

I refuse to accept this logic that free will only leads to error. I reject the idea that humans, when confronted with a choose, using their knowledge, critical thinking skills and free will, are only capable of making wrong choices. Therefore they should turn these attributes over to God and accept what is "fated" to, or only do what is written in a book that pre-chose for you how to choose or what to do, 1000's of years ago.

And when done knowingly, well then why complain about natural consequences that has already been warned of(hell)?

How did we jump straight to hell? If your taste for peanuts is more enjoyable than the allergic reaction, and so you make the choice to eat them , is that hell, or a discomfort for a time, until you can get that epiPen ready.

reply to post by windword

Submitting ones free will, in this example, is like asking God to choose for you between pink or blue, instead of choosing the one you like and accepting the consequences.

NO!! Not all free will has to be submitted. Just the part which can make me do wrong. I am free to choose to study physics or biology but shouldnt cheat even if otherwise i fail. Is this acceptable?

(Bangs head against wall!)
I refuse to accept this logic that free
will only leads to error. I reject the idea
that humans, when confronted with a
choose, using their knowledge, critical
thinking skills and free will, are only capable of making wrong choices.

i agree with you on that.

Therefore they should turn these
attributes over to God and accept what
is "fated" to, or only do what is written
in a book that pre-chose for you how
to choose or what to do, 1000's of years ago.

again NO!!
The "fate" comes in picture later. Say i saw a homeless guy and wanted to feed him, so took a plate of food and start walking towards him(free will) but i trip and the plate falls(fate). So the belief in fate only helps me make peace that i may make efforts but the outcome may not be as expected and its fine. (P.S- i'l take food again)
and God sees the intentions, the heart.

How did we jump straight to hell? If
your taste for peanuts is more
enjoyable than the allergic reaction,
and so you make the choice to eat
them , is that hell, or a discomfort for a
time, until you can get that epiPen

we jumped to hell because of my question "what if hell is a natural consequence of some actions/belief?" just like natural consequence of jumping from a tall building is a deadly "crunch." and by mentioning epipen, you took the analogy too far

Originally posted by oonkala
I have a tendency to see like this; God is a selfish toddler throwing a tantrum. A kid with a magnifying glass over an ant hill. A teenager who holds the remote of an electric dog collar. All who are under him have the "free will" to go wherever they choose, but the path, even slightly off course from where he determines it, is detrimental.
Rules have been created that he himself has already broken. ie The commandments: he has done them all
Lies and contradictions are common place in "his" world
I have no place in my life for the god created by men. I seek true God in my heart, without boundaries or rules or contradictions.

think mao and Pot trod a similar path

COSMIC

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by 1Agnostic1

 

i agree with your logical argument against deistic freewill.

Although i would say your will is as free as your next breath. Try to resist the urge to breath... youll wake up on the floor doing it whether you want to or not.

edit on 13-1-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

I also agree with you. Physics (here biology) is the first reality check. Logic, understanding, knowledge, emotions, beliefs are others.

Anyway, I don't believe in (an absolute) free-will.
Choice exists but, the more you adopt a rational behaviour and free yourself from fears as well as unproductive (because delusions, desires that can't be satisfied by reality, and fears) thoughts and behaviors, the more the illusion of free-will fade away.

It doesn't mean that choices do to though. It means heir nature change and, while you abandon/let go of what you thought possible and valid actions/responses in the past, you start to see new options, a lot more gratifying and fulfilling ones. Things become clearer and choices increase in fact.

reply to post by logical7


Why do you need to defer to anyone, even a God to tell you what you should or should not do??
This is the definition of total obedience. Here, this is more like slavery since he has total control over you, even your thoughts (process). He dictates everything that is your life and punish you if you don't obey: slavery, pure and simple.
How can you surrender volontarily to slavery or to ANY being for that matter??
It's not because we'll never know EVERYTHING that we can't understand ANYTHING and that we have to throw away our critical thinking and our individuality to melt ourselves in this idea of God.

How could you know he has your best interests at heart?

Plus, in this case, you chose the wrong master.
Read my posts (and others' on this thread) and you should understand that the god described in the bible is NOT omniscient nor all loving.
And, as you said, you don't even have the knowledge and intellectual capacity to truly know if you make the good choice by following these rules. This is non-sensical.

Also, free-will doesn't exist. It's the expression of a childish being that believes that if you believe something strongly enough, it makes it true. Absolute freedom (free-will) is an illusion... as is the existence of the active father-like figure depicted in the bibles. Or, if this being (has) exists, he is NOT benevolent, nor is he omniscient or omnipotent. And he's not all-loving that's even more obvious.
The bibles prove the absolute opposite. If you can't see that...

reply to post by 1Agnostic1


its not about any one religion. And the difference in our thinking is the approach. Top to bottom for me and bottom to (trying to make sense of) Top for you.
You say that i need God because i am insecure.
I can as easily say that you are arrogant to think that you are independent.

How can anyone who is conscious not know they have free will?

Originally posted by graphuto
In my opinion, there is no conspiracy. We don't have free will, the Bible itself alludes to it more than once.

As much as people want to believe that they "run things", they simply don't.

edit on 11-1-2013 by graphuto because: (no reason given)

Clockwork universe...completely and utterly ridiculous...

...and as much as you would like to respond, and that you believe it will be your own words...they simply aren't!

Completely and utterly ridiculous...

A99