The Free Will Conspiracy of the Bible

reply to post by windword

Hiya, wind!

Interesting and thought-provoking thread, S/F!

I'm going to share an anecdote from my working years that I believe illustrates the "illusion" of free will:

I was working as a lowest-tier supervisor for a major hospitality corporation. There were 75 people in the department, all of whom were absolutely CRITICAL to the functioning of the business -- that meaning, if they all called in sick on the same day, the place would necessarily have to shut its doors so that only the handful of "management" would have time to do all the work required.

These people were hardworking; they showed up early every day, in their uniforms, lined up at the time clock to "punch in", no earlier than 7 minutes prior to their shift beginning, and clock out no later than 7 minutes after their shifts had ended.

Their workload was heavy; if there was not as much work to do, I was required to "call them and cancel their shift", so as to avoid "budget overages." The most recently hired were ALWAYS the first to be called to cancel. The only way to be guaranteed a full shift - or a full week of shifts - was to have been there longer than everyone else.

Most of these laborers were women in their child-bearing years; although the most "senior" ones were generally grandparents and not running households with children in them...

Early in my tenure, it was allowed that women who were pregnant were temporarily allowed to go on "light duty", participating in less strenuous tasks than the normal heavy lifting and rapid, vigorous labor of their "normal" duties. Once the babies were born, the women would return to their normal strenuous duties.

Some months later, "Corporate" (for the purposes of this thread, "Corporate" = GOD) decided that this was no longer "profitable," so they stopped the practice of allowing lighter duty during late pregnancy or injury/frailty. One senior laborer became pregnant and was at very HIGH RISK for miscarriage. She had been there for years...and knew the "ropes" and had seen countless "light duty" transfers over her career.

It was my duty to inform her that she would not be allowed to take longer to do her shift, nor have help doing her shift, nor an alleviated workload. She was told she must work JUST AS STRENUOUSLY, not getting any respite from how quickly she was required to do her work....and that if she wanted leniency to AVOID A MISCARRIAGE, she would have to accept SHORTER HOURS. They would not even allow her colleague and good friend to continue to work extra-fast and HELP HER, once they learned that was how the two had been "discreetly" working together toward a healthy outcome for her!

I was appalled. And my attitude showed it; I was, of course, called behind doors and "written up" for taking her side;
by then I had learned that appeals to charity and kindness were useless - the only way to "sway" management was to show them a pie chart of repercussions on the BUSINESS LEVEL of PROFIT. Nevertheless, it was WRONG. And I would not "sell my soul" to protect the jobs or profit-margins of management.

I suggested the liability of disallowing this loyal, dedicated worker to be nurtured through her early pregnancy - if not simply because it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO, then because IF SHE MISCARRIED, IT WOULD BE THEIR DOING.

I said to my senior manager, "It's not right!" She replied, "It doesn't matter if you agree with 'GOD' or not, you have to do what he says." I said, "No, I don't. How do you sleep at night knowing what risk you are demanding she endure for your "profit" margin?"

"Well, it just is the way it is."

I quit the job, unable to support management that cared more about a 5-point font at the bottom of spread sheet that showed the department was 2% over budget.

This was FREE WILL on my part; to do as 'GOD' commanded, even at the expense of another person and an UNBORN BABY, or to refuse to put her to that risk. Might I have chosen to go along with 'GOD'? Of course, I "might have" IN THEORY - but in my HEART, I COULD NOT. There was no question: I WOULD NOT DO IT.

Likewise, 'GOD's "open door policy" was merely a "surveillance and control tool" used to "weed out" the rogues.

WHATEVER.

reply to post by wildtimes


Hiya Wild!

Thanks for your story. Indeed, TPTB have mimicked the authoritative style, and brainwashing techniques of the God of the OT to reinforce the idea that free will is an illusion.

The Hebrews used this, "Give us what we want or we'll kill you!" tactic on the towns that they "lusted" after, ignoring free will as anything of value. They wanted slaves, but whatever, if they didn't comply, killing them was just as easy. Break the law and die! Practice free will and die!

Deut 20:10
“As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace. 11 If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. 12 But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. 13 When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town. 14 But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you."

The Catholics used the same tactics in their CANONS, killing and torturing nonbelievers, dictating what their followers could eat, who they could eat with and when, what they were and were not to believe in and who and how to worship, upon penalty of death or excommunication. The Catholic Church hated free will as much as the God of the OT! They made free will a sin.

Governments and corporation have usurped the idea that people can be convinced that free will is illusion. Non compliance with governments can get one killed or jailed, noncompliance with corporate "gods" can get one fired, blacklisted or like you, force a kind of "self excommunication." Exercise free will and suffer the consequences!

I know of no other religious text like the Bible, that claims that free will is evil and coerces, lies, threatens and bribes followers to give up their free will, which is an illusion anyway! The Bible seems to be the ultimate blue print for brainwashing and hypnotizing mankind into believing that free will is an illusion for today's mainstream civilization, and the governments and corporation have hitched a ride on it's methods.

reply to post by windword


The concept of free will is in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. Man was created in His image and given dominion over the Earth. Dominion would be free will. A simple look at humanity shows the observer that we are not autonomous robots who only act in accord with a previous programming.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Man was created in His image and given dominion over the Earth. Dominion would be free will. A simple look at humanity shows the observer that we are not autonomous robots who only act in accord with a previous programming.

And,
is that "Dominion" doing the Earth any favors? Not that I can tell.
One would not be insane to wonder how "His image" gives humans license to trash their home.

I see wreckage, waste, destruction, abuse, exploitation, and a lack of regard for the generations to come, not to mention the atrocities against other animals, and all of it in the name of MONEY.

At the fall(Garden of Eden), man lost the ability to come to faith on his own. He was dead spiritually. The Reformed position is that man has the free will to sin, but not the free will to choose faith. Its kinda like your initial birth

Did you ask your parents to give birth to you? I think not

The same is true in your spiritual rebirth. Right now you are DEAD in your sins, unable to believe as a actual dead person. That is what Paul means in those epistles quoted

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Man was created in His image and given dominion over the Earth. Dominion would be free will. A simple look at humanity shows the observer that we are not autonomous robots who only act in accord with a previous programming.

And,
is that "Dominion" doing the Earth any favors? Not that I can tell.
One would not be insane to wonder how "His image" gives humans license to trash their home.

I see wreckage, waste, destruction, abuse, exploitation, and a lack of regard for the generations to come, not to mention the atrocities against other animals, and all of it in the name of MONEY.

edit on 11-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

That's because from birth we are all failed Jesus's, because the Son of God is the Image of God, the part of God we can see. We don't live up to our Creator's standards because we inherited a nature to sin. That's why he had to come here. The first step was covering our sins with his own blood at Passover, the second step was Shavuot when his covenant to send his spirit to his people so we could live in him and him in us was fuflfilled 50 days later.

The third step is Rosh Hashana when he reclaims the people he remade in the rapture/harpazo event.

The fouth step is Yom Kippur when he sends the goats into the desolation while his sheep get their reward.

The fifth step is the marriage Feast of the Bride when Christ who is the Temple goes into his city he prepares for his people called New Jerusalem. The marriage bowers the groom goes to build during his betrothal period while he waits for his wife-to-be to "put on white".

All of these things are symbolized in the jewish Feast Days and the rites of marriage given in the Law, the last 3 waiting for fulfillment.

reply to post by windword


First of all why are you quoting the New Testament when you are saying "the god of the Old Testament"? That's already out of place.

Secondly you are using scripture out of context. God in the Old Testament was pretty brutal and up until Jesus came, you had to try hard to keep your crap together. Also don't ever use a one line verse from the Bible... It is always meant to be read with surrounding text as well as being a whole complete book. Such a your piece from Romans 8. If you read from Romans 8:28-30 you'd realize Paul is speaking about those who love God, that they were predestined to experience His glory by Jesus dying for everyone. The passage doesn't state just how predestination exists lol.

All of the passages you're quoting state how we should strive to be good people, or else we will experience hell on earth. There is nothing stating that you can't go out and choose to hurt some poor individual or get hammered everyday. The Bible is a calling for everyone to experience unconditional love, and I'm not quite sure why everyone wants to twist and reject it all the time.

See my thread on the "Entheogenic Theory of Religion"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Robonakka
Mankind alone has free will. The angels nor the demons have it. We alone can choose. Sure, God may have went a little over the top trying to reach us at times, but it is for our own good.

How then did a third of the angels decide to follow Satan? How did Satan himself decide to try and set himself above God?

Does the clay have power over the potter?

Does the computer tell the human what to do?

As created beings, who are we to question what our creator chooses to do with us?

Originally posted by GeneralMishka
At the fall(Garden of Eden), man lost the ability to come to faith on his own. He was dead spiritually. The Reformed position is that man has the free will to sin, but not the free will to choose faith. Its kinda like your initial birth

Did you ask your parents to give birth to you? I think not

The same is true in your spiritual rebirth. Right now you are DEAD in your sins, unable to believe as a actual dead person. That is what Paul means in those epistles quoted

edit on 11-1-2013 by GeneralMishka because: (no reason given)

Sorry General,

I'm having a problem with this rationale. Are you saying that everyone is born with a dead soul? What does it mean to "come to faith", for Adam and Eve? Faith in what? How does someone with no soul know that it's dead or missing?

So, you propose that man has free will to sin, but not to do good? Man can't seek a spiritual path unless God has already decided that he can? So man is born spiritually dead and is only free to sin, and is incapable of doing anything good. God chooses who will or will not be "reborn in spirit" before a person is born.

Wow! This take the free will conspiracy to a new level.

We are, IMHO, first and foremost, spiritual beings that are having a physical experience. I believe that the soul is immortal and in it's pre-existence. We are naturally born good, loving, social and compassionate people with hope, self determination and free will. We are never separate from God, because God is everywhere and everything.

Sorry.

Originally posted by windword

Sorry General,

I'm having a problem with this rationale. Are you saying that everyone is born with a dead soul? What does it mean to "come to faith", for Adam and Eve? Faith in what? How does someone with no soul know that it's dead or missing?

Adam and Eve didn't have to "come to faith." They walked and talked with God.

So, you propose that man has free will to sin, but not to do good? Man can't seek a spiritual path unless God has already decided that he can? So man is born spiritually dead and is only free to sin, and is incapable of doing anything good. God chooses who will or will not be "reborn in spirit" before a person is born.

Wow! This take the free will conspiracy to a new level.

"Doing good" and "being right with God" are two entirely different things.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

Originally posted by graphuto
You are very confusing wind.
"I believe in God"
"I don't believe in God"
"God is loving"
"God is a tyrant"

Make up your mind.

I don't believe that the God of the Bible is God, but I do believe in a God. The God of the OT is a tyrant and then some, the God I believe in is personified as a loving being.

See?

Does the clay have power over the potter?
Does the computer tell the human what to do?
As created beings, who are we to question what our creator chooses to do with us?

Do you believe that we are no more than molded clay or a computer? That we have no free will?

I can't say for certain. There are certainly several times in the bible that make one question if we do indeed actually have free will. Whether we do or not, the illusion that we do is (if it is an illusion) strong enough to suffice.

reply to post by Myollinir


This thread is about The Free Will Conspiracy of The Bible, and when Paul talks about God, he's talking about the God of the OT, correct? He was a Jewish Pharisee, correct? Do you think that Paul abandoned his God Yahweh, for the Abba, father God of Jesus? I don't.

If you read from Romans 8:28-30 you'd realize Paul is speaking about those who love God, that they were predestined to experience His glory by Jesus dying for everyone. The passage doesn't state just how predestination exists lol.

So, God predestined some to believe in and love "God", but Jesus died for everyone? Where does free will come into the picture?

I can't believe the Jesus myth. So, is that free will or predestined? How can I will myself to believe something that doesn't make sense to me?

reply to post by graphuto


So you believe that the God of the OT is the creator of the universe, and the Bible is his unerrable word? Are all answers found in the Bible or can we find truth in other places as well?

The beginning of your post is predicated on the assumption that the God of the OT is a different being from the God of the NT.

As far as the rest of it, I've never felt the need to apply such critical thinking skills to the concepts. It's very easy, straightforward, and acceptable to me that:

1. God created us
2. God can do as He pleases with his creation
3. The main gist of everything is to "love your neighbor as yourself"

Any arguments against that are nothing but ego driven.

I have personal reason based on my own experience to believe that the entirety of everything anyone ever does is predetermined, set in stone, and that our free will is illusory, and I accept it for what it is.

reply to post by graphuto


In the OP, I address the God of the Bible. Later, I posted that I believe that Jesus taught of a different God. I also posted that I think Paul participates in the conspiracy to convince us that free will is an illusion, evil or a false belief.

This thread is about the free will conspiracy in the Bible, not what Jesus taught.

In my opinion, there is no conspiracy. We don't have free will, the Bible itself alludes to it more than once.

As much as people want to believe that they "run things", they simply don't.