The Free Will Conspiracy of the Bible

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Man was created in His image and given dominion over the Earth. Dominion would be free will. A simple look at humanity shows the observer that we are not autonomous robots who only act in accord with a previous programming.

And,
is that "Dominion" doing the Earth any favors? Not that I can tell.
One would not be insane to wonder how "His image" gives humans license to trash their home.

I see wreckage, waste, destruction, abuse, exploitation, and a lack of regard for the generations to come, not to mention the atrocities against other animals, and all of it in the name of MONEY.

edit on 11-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Well, the dominion we were created with was quite perverted with the fall of man and the entrance of sin into the equation. I was referring to how we were created, with dominion. And the obvious presence of evil in the world backs up my point that we have free will to choose evil or good.

Imagine that all of existence is this:

God experiencing himself.

If this is the case, the question of free will and the moral implications become moot.

reply to post by graphuto


If you have children, you know there is a such thing as free will, and stubburn will too!

If all of existence is God experiencing itself, then I would imagine that free will would provide a nearly infinite source of surprise and excitement for God. I know that my daughter, her unique and individual personality, her wit and humor, never ceases to surprise and amaze me. The things that she's accomplished and the joy and admiration that her existence brings to my life, couldn't happen without free will. IMO

Is the free will of your child a thorn in your side?

reply to post by graphuto


Absolutely not! Why would you think that?

And, I would never treat her this way:

For the same reason you might think that free will is a thorn in the side of God.

reply to post by graphuto


I'm not talking about (MY) God, in my OP.

I'm talking about that guy from the Old Testament, pretending to be god, who also hate free will!

Without the OT and the God thereof, the NT is meaningless.

In my opinion, it has been a strategic attempt for "Satan" to discredit the first half of the book. If the first half is discredited, surely we must question the whole thing. Which is exactly what has happened.

just a few points----

god created satan(according to the OT.)

god experiences nothing-as that would neccessitate duality.

all viewpoints are of the mind- so one must go beyond or behind it to know truth.

reply to post by windword


Absolutely. Which is why he is merely an alien who came here to do something (unsure specifically but mining resources, genetic and social experiments are high on my list).

I also find it hard to follow the bible now that a raw, unbiased, restoration is being done by The Chronicle Project using a self-defining language code discovered within the Ancient hebrew language which enables them to translate without bias.

But they weren't anything about free will. They came to serve their own purposes. Whether our creation was part of this I'm not sure, but I don't totally believe so, but what I'm certain of is this God and its Angels were as physical as you and I, and deceptive.

All the ancient stories tell of the Gods teaching us Agriculture. Agriculture, by the way, is possibly the worst mistake Humans ever made...so I'm not surprised that the rumours/stories tell of the Gods teaching it to us. It seems they also taught us weapon making and even the mysteries of this planet, of which the knowledge was hoarded by power hungry humans.

Originally posted by graphuto
Imagine that all of existence is this:

God experiencing himself.

If this is the case, the question of free will and the moral implications become moot.

love it. And if the omnipotent being does indeed exist (and of course he does) then we are mere game pieces
of varying value according to type. I reckon the best thing we humans can do for ourselves is unload all the baggage we are carrying and start afresh with eyes open but that's an impossible dream. Some of us, maybe, maybe a few already have.

reply to post by windword


This is even simpler than that. If we believe God to be Omniscient, free will doesn't exist at all. Pure and simple.
Because he knows everything you'll be doing before you're even born.
If he doesn't, he's not omniscient and, therefore, not God.
This has numerous implications like the fact that 'tests' don't exist either since he knows what you'll do beforehand. So, the concept of test to explain free will and choice is stupid.

On the other hand, if free will truly exist, then God doesn't. Since it would mean he CAN'T KNOW what you'll do and therefore isn't omniscient.

Think about that. If you're interested I have a lot more to divulge.
Believers are so stupid, it's breathtaking.
I won't make many friends but it also goes for Atheists since they BELIEVE there is no God, no creator, but KNOW nothing nor can they prove anything. Yes, atheism IS a faith (with its dogmas and apostles).

The only correct, scientific and logical stance is Agnosticism.

reply to post by orangutang


Yes. That is a good point. God's self awareness necessitates duality, because as soon as something "IS" sonething also "ISN'T."

I don't know if this is Gnostic, Pythagorean or Platonic, but I remember reading the natural birth of existence from the first "ONE." ONE becoming self aware, naturally creates "TWO", what ONE is not. The next natural process gives birth to "THREE", the Observer.

The ONE, TWO and THREE points of reference, naturally creates a triangle, and the extremes of each perspective, through the laws of attraction "snap" together, to join at the points to create a new dimension consisting of space and time, with the birth of "FOUR" the Tetrahedron. The first piece of matter, the four letter name of GOD, "The FIrst Word."

reply to post by LightAssassin


I've come to believe that if the gods were real, they were sent by some cosmic corporation. Not unlike human's, they argued among themselves. fighting over territory, methods and resources, and finally went to war with each other, as cited in all ancient texts, and the powers that be, that sent them, called them home, leaving some oversight behind.

I'm not familiar with the Chronicle Project. I wonder if it's a branch of Stan Tenen's work with Meru Foundation?

Originally posted by 1Agnostic1
reply to post by windword

 

This is even simpler than that. If we believe God to be Omniscient, free will doesn't exist at all. Pure and simple.
Because he knows everything you'll be doing before you're even born.
If he doesn't, he's not omniscient and, therefore, not God.
This has numerous implications like the fact that 'tests' don't exist either since he knows what you'll do beforehand. So, the concept of test to explain free will and choice is stupid.

On the other hand, if free will truly exist, then God doesn't. Since it would mean he CAN'T KNOW what you'll do and therefore isn't omniscient.

Think about that. If you're interested I have a lot more to divulge.

Yes, I have pondered this conundrum before. I have come to the conclusion that the only way a self aware "GOD" could exist as all knowing, would only be if IT was all knowing in present time "ONLY."

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this topic! Please divulge!

Believers are so stupid, it's breathtaking.

I feel your frustration, man!

I won't make many friends but it also goes for Atheists since they BELIEVE there is no God, no creator, but KNOW nothing nor can they prove anything. Yes, atheism IS a faith (with its dogmas and apostles).

The only correct, scientific and logical stance is Agnosticism.

You may surprised the friends that you make speaking your critically thinking trained mind to us alternative thinkers here on ATS!

I'm looking forward to hering more!

reply to post by windword


Ok, just some easy points but I won't develop them (much) for now, here:

- The Biblical God is a sadistic pervert since he created Satan, Adam, then Eve KNOWING they will fail him and that he will punish them (us) even before to create them.

- To pray is also stupid since God should know what you think and need, as well as what you did (do) and if you are deserving or not. To ask Him/Her anything is not only redundant but pushy and disrespectful don’t you think?

If he can't read your mind and know everything about your deeds, then he can't be an omniscient nor OMNIPOTENT God. So, why pray to him, then? Does that also mean he can be fooled (since he doesn't know what you need/think if you don't ask/say it) and lied to??

Also, if (S)He really demands you pray (and ask for His/Her help then), to even consider guaranteeing your request it’s pervert too and just to show off His/Her power (to say no) and the fact that you DEPEND on Him/Her. Is that the policy « Don’t ask, don’t get »?
This is ludicrous.

- Then, He really seems NOT to be omnipotent, though, and it seems to be common knowledge among angels ( ) since Satan decided to raise an army against Him.
Yes, the Bible says he lost but he wouldn't have been stupid enough to even try if he thought God was omnipotent and omniscient.
If God is omnipotent, there is no point in even trying to defeat, it's plain stupid. If God is even only omniscient, he would know Satan plans...

- More, since when obedience and complete utter devotion is REQUIRED before to be loved or even deemed worthy of anything?
Only an insecure being would ask that of someone.
What about fear (of going to hell) as means of coercion to follow His/Her rules: The « virtuous path »?

This is endless.

The Bibles are filled with this kind of non-sense that only stupid people can accept without seeing any logical problem.
The Bibles, themselves, DISPROVE the existence of the God they claim to portray.


Also, your conception of God knowing everything of what makes the present is wrong, since the present/Now doesn't exist. It's a human concept which has no logical meaning. Now is already past. BUT the future is almost an equivalent meaningless concept since, by definition, it doesn't exist (yet).
As for the pst, well, it obviously doesn't exist anymore. Therefore, time as seen by us and as a scientific reality doesn't exist at all.

It's an helpful concept for us in our everyday life and for our level of reasoning but with no empirical/logical evidence to back it up.

Even if we consider that He/She can know (all of) the ‘present’ (variables), it can then determine what will happen with certainty. That’s how you predict a trajectory for example. So, he would still know the future.


All that to say God has indeed be created by men... And they were not too bright...

Again, this is NOT to say that there is no Creator, just that the 'Gods' religions try to push on us aren't real and the product of some power-hungry, attention-seeking, control freaks. That's it.

Why not simply admitting that we don’t know… But that the Bibles certainly are full of it, THAT we (should all) know.
By the way, I know why: Fear (of death and nothingness after it) and narcissism (we MUST be special, our 'lives' CANNOT end with our body. The soul MUST exist).

reply to post by windword


FREE WILL is Inverse proportional to Knowledge.
Thats true for everything we do. Example, I love the taste of peanuts but if i am allergic to it and i know it then either i behave wisely and accept it or whine but accept or try a bit of peanuts and take the consequences.
God set an order in the universe and every act leads to its natural consequences. And we as humans are incapable of comprehending the consequences of each act, especially as each act starts a ripple effect. Its just too much information to process.
So now if God in His Mercy informed us what to avoid and thats what is called "Sin" then do i trust that God is doing it for my own good or i think He is selfish?!!
So just like Peanuts are sinful for me,
few acts are sinful to any human in general. Example, God informed ursury is sin, but humans tried it and based the whole economy on it, leading to the economic crisis.

reply to post by windword


Can we separate what the church says and does from what the bible says? Because the church says and does all of the things that you accuse it of saying and doing.

This is what the bible says. You have free will to love or to sin? The outcome of your decision is in God's hands. He is the judge and his judgments are righteous. If you sin in error your judgment will likely be soft, but if you sin out of the sinful desire in your heart, than you can expect to be severely punished.

Luke 12:47-48
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by windword

 

FREE WILL is Inverse proportional to Knowledge.

I happen to completely agree with this sentence. It's a powerful one.
Too bad you waste it (and its implications) by trying to apply it to a non-sensical field like religion though.
If you followed your own principles (or the meaning of this sentence), by reading my posts (and others like OP) on this topic, you should let go of any (religious) belief. As hard or difficult as it may be, this the ONLY true path towards human evolution (of his psyche).

Entertaining the possibility of a Creator is one thing, accepting the existence of a(ny) God described by (an)y Bible as truth is damaging for your mind, your critical thinking and, as counter-intuitive as it may sound, your mental well-being and development.

You don't even realize that what you say is that God is denying us knowledge (because "we couldn't process it") and uses this fact to make us believe there is a free-will.
This is the ultimate scam/hypocrisy/perversion: To be saved, one has to blindly follow and shut his critical thinking down completely.
Only justification (for existing rules) and obedience are allowed. And, worst of all, fear (of damnation) is used and complete devotion are required. This NIT the work of a loving being. This is not elevation (spiritual or cognitive) this is the negation of our very (inquisitive) being. Pure and simple.
Why create us in the first place then?

Nothing makes sense and faithers won't see that. This is too scary for them.

reply to post by 1Agnostic1



I love your last line when you proclaim that nothing makes sense and that believers are too scared to believe that. I guess everything makes sense to you though, right?