Man arrested after online rant against Liverpool and Hillsborough disaster victims

reply to post by Rising Against


So you want people jailed for saying they still blame the fans for hillsborough.

WOW.

This is a conspiracy theory forum where you are a moderator and you want people jailed for not going along with the widely accepted public opinion.

reply to post by Rising Against


I think the problem here is that we all have different definitions of hate speech. I don't think many people would argue that hate speech should be covered by freedom of speech, but I think you will find that some people are a lot stricter or looser with the definition than you are.

In my case, I play it safe and go with the government approved hate speech targets, no homophobia, racism or sexism. Gingers and fat people are fair game though, until the law changes.

Some people would say those last 2 groups should be protected by law like the first 3, some would argue that the first 3 shouldn't even be hate speech.

There is a difference between something being offensive and hate speech though, the difference is that hate speech is a manifestation of a deeply held prejudice or stereotype of a group of people based on certain characteristics. Offensive speech is just a fool with a mouth being foolish.

In this case, I think you have defined this guy's rant as hate speech, while few other people here have done so. You're arguing with the perception that you think hate speech is bad and everyone else thinks hate speech is good, while everyone else is arguing with the perception that you think you should be locked up for being offensive, while they think being locked up for being offensive is silly.

In reality it doesn't matter, the next 5 pages will be the constitution vs the Magna Carta either way.

reply to post by Rising Against

A world where 9/11 victim's can be openly abused and mocked, as the Hillsborough one's have been. A world where anyone can be insulted, mocked and berated for something completely out of their control. When it comes around to bite you, you won't be so willing for such a world, I can assure you.

Nope, such a world would not differ much from the current UK "police state", because most people are decent and cases of such abuse are rare, widely condemned by society anyway, and those that are prosecuted are again an order of magnitude or two more rare.

Laws regulating speech have a small effect in real world, and even if there was complete anarchy, not much would change.

In addition to this, the rest could be dealt with by ordinary anti-harrassment laws. There is practicaly no reason to go further except stupid hurt feelings mentality and the desire to silence those you disagree with.

reply to post by Rising Against


You mention 9/11...do you know that many Muslims in the UK openly celebrate that day.

Where are those arrests?

reply to post by crazyewok


Well, to be fair-the Patriot Act is sugary fluff compared to some of the laws.
I was pointing it out to contrast the allowances and that which forbidden in context of Constitution or laws to govern speech.

The reasons so many Americans are offended by this premise (someone being arrested for making statements) is it runs contrary to something so many take for granted. Most don't even understand what the 1st Amendment does and falsely claim that a site such as ATS is infringing upon their rights when a post is taken down or similar.

And yet, I bet a whole lot of people horrified about this arrest were for Pierce Morgan deport crap-as if someone making an unpopular statement is worthy of the government taking away his livelihood. The ignorance and hypocrisy around these issues is sometimes staggering.

Originally posted by oper8zhin

Originally posted by Dispo
reply to post by oper8zhin

 

I disagree. Everyone is in the same boat, not just us.

Everyone in in the same boat you say? Speak for yourself.

Heres just ONE example of hundreds. Lets say a gang of THUGS and/or hardened criminals illegally enter my home with the intent tie me up and force me to watch them rape my wife and then my daughter, and then steal my money, credit cards, and valuable processions, he is going to be TERMINATED before he lays a hand on ANY of us. Terminated before he even gets the CHANCE to ruin my entire familiy's lives. PERIOD!!!!!

And the law here where I live will salute me for doing so against said bad guys. They wont arrest me to using "harsh force" against the thug, gangster, or psychopath whose intention was to create total HELL in our families lives.

And we all are not in the "same boat". As you can see here how UK folks cant stop minding American affairs and insulting us for standing up for our rights and freedoms. All the rights and freedoms that you all lost. Are you all that BLOODY jealous us Americans, or is it that you are completely BRAINWASHED. Do you NOT see it? You will have ZERO rights left over in the UK if you dont STAND UP NOW and do something. THIS IS EXACTLY what we in America are ACTIVELY DOING right now, and we have to here folks from the UK insulting us.

I have NEVER witnessed anything so ASININE in my entire life as what I see from the UK folks who are so painfully BLIND or BRAINWASHED!!!

You make American look idoits. I feel sorry for the USA with people like you. No wonder its going down hill.

And last time I checked the UK does'nt have have gangs that as you said are

"hardened criminals illegally enter my home with the intent tie me up and force me to watch them rape my wife and then my daughter, and then steal my money, credit cards, and valuable processions"

Infact almost every break in I know localy happens when the people are out at work! Our criminals are smart you see, they will wait till a house is empty. The few burgalrys that happen with people home end up with them running off as they are not armed. Infact the only breakin and murders that happen are contained within the criminal community.

reply to post by bates

So you want people jailed for saying they still blame the fans for hillsborough.

WOW.

This is a conspiracy theory forum where you are a moderator and you want people jailed for not going along with the widely accepted public opinion.

This is my post you're replying to:

Originally posted by Rising Against
reply to post by Dispo

 

The whole point of the "big fight" we're having is to prove that Duckenfield could and should have foreseen the disaster.

..And whether he was responsible or not, as ever since the disaster, up until this year in fact, fans have been wrongly blamed for what took place.

Now we know they were not to blame, instead, the actions of those in charge that day, I.e. Duckenfield. A real cover up took place, a sickening one too.

Now, where on earth am I saying in that post I want people jailed for the reason you just mentioned. I never said it and I never hinted at anything like that either. I was pointing out the reason why there was a fight for justice all these years.

Straws. You're clutching at them. Aaand rather desperately now...

reply to post by LFN69


I honestly have no idea what the overall message you're trying to convey is - could you rephrase it a bit for me please?

Originally posted by oper8zhin

Originally posted by Dispo
reply to post by oper8zhin

 

I disagree. Everyone is in the same boat, not just us.

Everyone in in the same boat you say? Speak for yourself. Americans are NOT in the "same boat" because we FIGHT for our RIGHTS despite all the UK insults when we do so. (OH the irony of that one!!!)

Heres just ONE example of hundreds. Lets say a gang of THUGS and/or hardened criminals illegally enter my home with the intent tie me up and force me to watch them rape my wife and then my daughter, and then steal my money, credit cards, and valuable processions, he is going to be TERMINATED before he lays a hand on ANY of us. Terminated before he even gets the CHANCE to ruin my entire family's lives. PERIOD!!!!!

And the law here where I live will salute me for doing so against said bad guys. They wont arrest me to using "harsh force" against the thug, gangster, or psychopath whose intention was to create total HELL in our families lives.

And we all are not in the "same boat". As you can see here how UK folks cant stop minding American affairs and insulting us for standing up for our rights and freedoms. All the rights and freedoms that you all lost. Are you all that BLOODY jealous us Americans, or is it that you are completely BRAINWASHED. Do you NOT see it? You will have ZERO rights left over in the UK if you dont STAND UP NOW and do something. THIS IS EXACTLY what we in America are ACTIVELY DOING right now, and we have to here folks from the UK insulting us.

I have NEVER witnessed anything so ASININE in my entire life as what I see from the UK folks who are so painfully BLIND or BRAINWASHED!!!

edit on 30-12-2012 by oper8zhin because: (no reason given)

What exactly has your post got to do with the actual subject matter of this thread?
ALL countries have their own laws and do things their own way.
Look, If you lot want to all go around like Stallone killing each other, thats entirely up to you.
If we want to arrest people for insulting Liverpool we shall because we can!
Now give it a rest, already!!!

Originally posted by bates
reply to post by destination now

 

It's sounds to me like you daughter was the victim of a horrific hate campaign and was receiving very real harassment, i'm not sure it falls under the freedom of speech issue.

It wasn't just people saying nasty things, it was coupled with some very real actions that moves it well out of the freedom of speech remit.

No one was threatening violence against her though, just telling her she should have killed herself rather than it being the other girl (as if my daughter killing herself would have stopped the other girl anyway, poor soul)

So it does still come down to words and how they can affect people and I think that is what is important. Most of us don't say nasty things to people because we know how we feel when someone says something nasty to us (or about our families, friends etc) so mostly we use self moderation. Clearly though some people are unable to moderate themselves in my example the girls who made the remarks were still very young and trying to cope with a tragedy and didn't realise the harm they were doing, they needed to learn, but like I said previously, this guy is an adult, he should know better and if being arrested is his form of being taught how words can hurt, then so be it and maybe next time he will restrict his internet ranting a bit.

He can still have any opinions of scousers that he wants, but shouting about it on the internet, coupled with threats of violence is just not the way to go in a civilized society.

Originally posted by lordtyp0
reply to post by crazyewok

 

And yet, I bet a whole lot of people horrified about this arrest were for Pierce Morgan deport crap-as if someone making an unpopular statement is worthy of the government taking away his livelihood. The ignorance and hypocrisy around these issues is sometimes staggering.

Im with you on that. Infact no I understand most of what your saying. Its a shame some of your fellow citizen are so stupid

Originally posted by Rising Against

Originally posted by RoScoLaz
reply to post by Rising Against

 

wrong. freedom of speech and expression is non-negotiable. causing 'offense' is not a crime. nor should it be treated as such. pathetic.

So, you think people should be allowed to go out there and quite literally say whatever the hell they want, with absolutely no limitations whatsoever? Well, I do say good luck to you in such a world, because I won't be pretty. Not in the slightest.

A world where 9/11 victim's can be openly abused and mocked, as the Hillsborough one's have been. A world where anyone can be insulted, mocked and berated for something completely out of their control. When it comes around to bite you, you won't be so willing for such a world, I can assure you.

I live in the real world. A world where I recognize that we do unfortunately need some limits.

I have read this thread up to this point and thought i would add my 3 penneth.
What about the (so called) british citizens who say in public that our troops should all
be killed.This is often voiced in public.NO ARRESTS.
I do think he was arrested as was said earlier for his own good.
Just saying

reply to post by destination now


Personally I am not against the school of hard knocks, you shoot off your mouth in that manner and get a few teeth knocked in then you faced the consequences. In the case of the girl you mentioned, she got what was coming to her and perhaps she will change her mind (and perhaps not, I know a few cases where that never worked)

Yes, I know that is hypocritical of me, but meh - I am far from perfect. I just can see the slippery slope of giving the government the right to censor speech with that kind of authority (I see videos and blogs on the net from Europe talking against the austerity and the governments who which to implement them (and some definitely have are quite hateful), should they be arrested?

Originally posted by Dispo
reply to post by LFN69

 

I honestly have no idea what the overall message you're trying to convey is - could you rephrase it a bit for me please?

Sorry, no can do.
I think you are a bit smug and santimonious, not the kind of person I really want to get into any kind of discussion with.
If you dont get the message, you dont get it. So what?
Some will understand and some wont, it doesnt mean that you are entitled to an explanation of its inner workings does it.
The whole thread does not revolve around your single input anymore than it does mine.
I dont owe you any more air time fella.
You have your view, I have mine, its not somesort of intellectual scrabble we are playing, you would, obviously beat me hands down.....
I bow to your intellectual superiority, ok?

Originally posted by crazyewok

Originally posted by oper8zhin

Originally posted by Dispo
reply to post by oper8zhin

 

I disagree. Everyone is in the same boat, not just us.

Everyone in in the same boat you say? Speak for yourself.

Heres just ONE example of hundreds. Lets say a gang of THUGS and/or hardened criminals illegally enter my home with the intent tie me up and force me to watch them rape my wife and then my daughter, and then steal my money, credit cards, and valuable processions, he is going to be TERMINATED before he lays a hand on ANY of us. Terminated before he even gets the CHANCE to ruin my entire familiy's lives. PERIOD!!!!!

And the law here where I live will salute me for doing so against said bad guys. They wont arrest me to using "harsh force" against the thug, gangster, or psychopath whose intention was to create total HELL in our families lives.

And we all are not in the "same boat". As you can see here how UK folks cant stop minding American affairs and insulting us for standing up for our rights and freedoms. All the rights and freedoms that you all lost. Are you all that BLOODY jealous us Americans, or is it that you are completely BRAINWASHED. Do you NOT see it? You will have ZERO rights left over in the UK if you dont STAND UP NOW and do something. THIS IS EXACTLY what we in America are ACTIVELY DOING right now, and we have to here folks from the UK insulting us.

I have NEVER witnessed anything so ASININE in my entire life as what I see from the UK folks who are so painfully BLIND or BRAINWASHED!!!

You make American look idoits. I feel sorry for the USA with people like you. No wonder its going down hill.

And last time I checked the UK does'nt have have gangs that as you said are

"hardened criminals illegally enter my home with the intent tie me up and force me to watch them rape my wife and then my daughter, and then steal my money, credit cards, and valuable processions"

Infact almost every break in I know localy happens when the people are out at work! Our criminals are smart you see, they will wait till a house is empty. The few burgalrys that happen with people home end up with them running off as they are not armed. Infact the only breakin and murders that happen are contained within the criminal community.

Oh really, is that so?? How old are you by the way? Your post sounds like it was written by a preteen kid.

SO such an EXAMPLE as that which I provided is IMPOSSIBLE?? Is that what you are saying?? IMPOSSIBLE??? You must live in FANTASY LAND.

First, I would like for you to tell me where I can live WHERE such an example that I provided is GUARANTEED to never happen??

Its posts like YOURS that makes people look like "IDIOTS" honestly. Painfully stupid "IDIOTS" in fact.

reply to post by LFN69


Well, fair enough then. If you change your mind I'd be interested in talking it over with you.

Originally posted by destination now

Originally posted by bates
reply to post by destination now

 

It's sounds to me like you daughter was the victim of a horrific hate campaign and was receiving very real harassment, i'm not sure it falls under the freedom of speech issue.

It wasn't just people saying nasty things, it was coupled with some very real actions that moves it well out of the freedom of speech remit.

No one was threatening violence against her though, just telling her she should have killed herself rather than it being the other girl (as if my daughter killing herself would have stopped the other girl anyway, poor soul)

So it does still come down to words and how they can affect people and I think that is what is important. Most of us don't say nasty things to people because we know how we feel when someone says something nasty to us (or about our families, friends etc) so mostly we use self moderation. Clearly though some people are unable to moderate themselves in my example the girls who made the remarks were still very young and trying to cope with a tragedy and didn't realise the harm they were doing, they needed to learn, but like I said previously, this guy is an adult, he should know better and if being arrested is his form of being taught how words can hurt, then so be it and maybe next time he will restrict his internet ranting a bit.

He can still have any opinions of scousers that he wants, but shouting about it on the internet, coupled with threats of violence is just not the way to go in a civilized society.

edit on 30-12-2012 by destination now because: (no reason given)

Amen to that!

reply to post by Rising Against


I was just replying to you in general.

You clearly said in this thread you're happy to see him jailed, and the reason was for his comments on hillsborough which you find to be hate speech.

Are you now saying you don't think he should be jailed for his hillsborough comments?

He doesn't exactly mock the dead does he, he just blames the liverpool fans for the tragedy.

From that I can only assume you want him jailed for not going along with the widely held opinion on what happened that day.

he says:

You squashed yourself to death in that stadium; it's your fault, not the police.

That's what you want the man jailed for.

Amazing.

Originally posted by oper8zhin

Originally posted by crazyewok

Originally posted by oper8zhin

Originally posted by Dispo
reply to post by oper8zhin

 

I disagree. Everyone is in the same boat, not just us.

Everyone in in the same boat you say? Speak for yourself.

Heres just ONE example of hundreds. Lets say a gang of THUGS and/or hardened criminals illegally enter my home with the intent tie me up and force me to watch them rape my wife and then my daughter, and then steal my money, credit cards, and valuable processions, he is going to be TERMINATED before he lays a hand on ANY of us. Terminated before he even gets the CHANCE to ruin my entire familiy's lives. PERIOD!!!!!

And the law here where I live will salute me for doing so against said bad guys. They wont arrest me to using "harsh force" against the thug, gangster, or psychopath whose intention was to create total HELL in our families lives.

And we all are not in the "same boat". As you can see here how UK folks cant stop minding American affairs and insulting us for standing up for our rights and freedoms. All the rights and freedoms that you all lost. Are you all that BLOODY jealous us Americans, or is it that you are completely BRAINWASHED. Do you NOT see it? You will have ZERO rights left over in the UK if you dont STAND UP NOW and do something. THIS IS EXACTLY what we in America are ACTIVELY DOING right now, and we have to here folks from the UK insulting us.

I have NEVER witnessed anything so ASININE in my entire life as what I see from the UK folks who are so painfully BLIND or BRAINWASHED!!!

You make American look idoits. I feel sorry for the USA with people like you. No wonder its going down hill.

And last time I checked the UK does'nt have have gangs that as you said are

"hardened criminals illegally enter my home with the intent tie me up and force me to watch them rape my wife and then my daughter, and then steal my money, credit cards, and valuable processions"

Infact almost every break in I know localy happens when the people are out at work! Our criminals are smart you see, they will wait till a house is empty. The few burgalrys that happen with people home end up with them running off as they are not armed. Infact the only breakin and murders that happen are contained within the criminal community.

Oh really, is that so?? How old are you by the way?

Your post sounds like it was written by a preteen kid.

SO such an EXAMPLE as that which I provided is IMPOSSIBLE?? Is that what you are saying?? IMPOSSIBLE??? You must live in FANTASY LAND.

First, I would like for you to tell me where I can live WHERE such an example that I provided is GUARANTEED to never happen??

Its posts like YOURS that makes people look like "IDIOTS" honestly. Painfully stupid "IDIOTS" in fact.

edit on 30-12-2012 by oper8zhin because: (no reason given)

Nothing is impossible. Under your reasoning you should have a nuclear bunker as a nuclear war is not impossible..

Look what works in US does not mean it will work in the UK. Examples of what you said may be a likely event where you live but very very very unlikely over here. We are happy with our gun laws like you are happy with yours.

So shut up and stop bashing other countrys.

And Im dyslexic. When you have to result in attcking ones spelling it shows your argument is wearing thing.