Do I want to go to Heaven?

You know,I always remember the episode in the first series of Blackadder a 'historical' satire/comedy series starring Rowan Atkinson and Tony Robinson where he plays a complete anti hero,devious,self serving,wickedly sarcastic to all that aired on the BBC in the 80's for those who don't know it.

In one episode the King,his father is at war with the church (think of Thomas Beckett and 'who'll rid me of this turbulent priest') and he needs someone he can control as Archbishop of Canterbury because the church is too good at frightening noblemen on their deathbed with hellfire into willing their lands to the church not the king.So he points his spineless son Edmund as the new Archbishop instead of a church man.

Anyway cut to the deathbed scene and Edmund is busy trying to get the dying noble to will in favour of the king when a prierst comes in saying leave to the church or burn for eternity in hell which scares the nobleman to change his mind.

Then Edmund gets this devious glint in his eye and tries a change of tack.

'you know heavens not what its cracked up to be.Ok if you like church meetings,bible reading,playing harps and talking with god' (i'm paraphrasing btw)

'Where as hell is for those who like the other things.rape,pillage,murder,drinking'

the noble is suddenly interested.

'so hell is for the fun things??'

'yes,sign over to the king and enjoy it for eternity !!!'

Anyway,trouble with heaven for me is it'll be full of christians.lol.

Hope hell is sex,drugs,rock n roll,fast cars cos i'm not swapping my strat for a harp,blues for hymns !!!

reply to post by MamaJ


Well said, MammaJ. I also feel that the world is what you make of it. Maybe Jesus was hinting at this as well when he spoke to the Pharisees about the kingdom:

“Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”

There is no HOPE in Heaven.

If everything you ever want and need is provided, and/or the desire to have/want (like eating) is magicked away (because your dead), or because the light of the gawd(s) fills you sufficiently, then, what is there to HOPE for once you're there?

All the really INTERESTING things are likely going on here where there's plenty of Hope, and even more disappointment, but, heaping helpings of Hope as well.

What's existence without Hope?

At least in Vahalla, if you're a guy, you can fight and f*** and feast every day without any of the negative side effects.

Also of note is this...

Satan is said to be the leader of the fallen angels who are described as waging "war in heaven".

Angels waging war in heaven?

Seriously?

Now..... IF heaven is a state of mind like I said in an earlier post then it begs to question if in fact there is a war waging in mind sets of angels and then the question becomes WHY?

WHY would an angelic being all of a sudden want not peace .... but war?

Also, WHEN did this become evident in the game of heaven per our historical writings? Or .... did it only become a happening when they came to Earth as the Earth is said the have been void, without form? Book of Enoch also describes the fall here on Earth and not in heaven. This also leads me questioning that when in thought (Gods or plural Gods thought form) did he imagine this would play out with his creation.... and so it was? Why? It just doesn't make sense to me.

One question is a snowball of questions...... it never ends. lol

So..... WHEN did Satan/Hell become a part of our society? This is relevant to the OP....

By the 3rd century, there is evidence that some early Christians accepted this Jewish Enochic pseudepigraphy and the application of the angelic descent myth to the "sons of God" passage in Genesis 6:1-4,[9] Its presence not only in the East but also in the Latin-speaking West is attested by the polemic of Augustine of Hippo (354–430) against the motif of giants born of the union between fallen angels and human women.[10] Rabbinic Judaism and Christian authorities rejected the tradition.[11] Those who adopted the tradition viewed the "sons of God" as fallen angels who married human women and by unnatural union begot the Nephilim.[

So Christians and Jews, huh? Nephilim? Sounds also like the Greek Gods (Zeus), or does it?

A Jewish myth of angels coming down to earth rather than being cast down, referred to as the myth of angelic descent,[15] is found chiefly in the Jewish pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch, 6-9 and the Qumran Book of Giants and perhaps in Genesis 6:1-4.[16] The angels in question were Watchers[17] who were inveigled by the beauty of human women,[16] had intercourse with them and corrupted mankind.[18] They were the prime instigators of the sinfulness that led to the Great Deluge.[19] This myth was adopted by early Christianity, but abandoned by Rabbinic Judaism and later Christianity.[17] During the period immediately before the rise of Christianity, the intercourse between these Watchers and human women was often seen as the first fall of the angels.[

Seems as though "sex" is still going on in the "state of mind" of souls in Heaven. YAY!!!!!!!!!!! I think though in all honesty and sincerity that sex is supposed to be for love and not for perverted pleasure but then again... it does go hand in hand.

Now... check this out... lol

The Hebrew Bible does not say that Satan is an angel, nor that he is fallen: it uses the corresponding Hebrew word, which means "adversary", of human opponents or some evil influence, but in three places it personifies Satan as a character, always inferior to God's power: it portrays him as an accuser (Zechariah 3:1-2), a seducer (1 Chronicles 21:1) or a heavenly persecutor (Job 2:1.[31]

IT DOES NOT SAY SATAN is an angel nor that he is fallen.

Origen does equate in early christianity, satan in scripture.... one scripture I may add.

Origen and other Christian writers linked the fallen morning star of Isaiah 14:12 to Jesus' statement in Luke 10:18, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" and to the mention of a fall of Satan in Revelation 12:8-9

So basically this theme is carried out and adopted from 3 religions..... The Abraham Religions. (There is that number 3 again) In The Quran three angels are said to have fallen. Hmmmmmm..... Maybe these three religions are from Satan.... the deceiver....

The concept of fallen angels is first found in Judaism among texts of the Second Temple era, being applied in particular to Azazel[40] and Satan.[31] However, from the Middle Ages certain Jewish scholars, both rationalist and traditionalist, rejected belief in rebel or fallen angels, since they considered evil as simply the absence of good or at least as not absolute.[41] [edit]Christianity

"Evil is simply the absence of good or at least as not absolute" = Religion in my view. lol
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by temporalchameleon
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Well said, MammaJ. I also feel that the world is what you make of it. Maybe Jesus was hinting at this as well when he spoke to the Pharisees about the kingdom:

“Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”

Thank you!

That is my thought processing as well. When I read his words I happen to think differently than most and it causes problems when conversing with others about who he is and what he taught. I find its more than what he is given credit for.

Jesus was one cool dude in my opinion. I hope he doesn't think I have a crush on him. lol I know he knows... I do. I wonder if he will let me in "Heaven" knowing that I really do crush on him daily.

Maybe, he and I will be an item in heaven since I believe we could be as all things are possible with my mind. lol

There will be someone who reads this who will indeed be offended... but hey..... so be it.

Surely Jesus and the peeps in heaven have a sense of humor.

Heaven is run by a dictator??
I don't know why we worry about this at all. Not even the Pope knows what heaven "is".

If there is something to our religion at all, we will all find out when our day comes. Why worry???? there is nothing we can do to spoil God's plan.

Originally posted by bismarket
reply to post by followtheevidence

 

If a God can't just do whatever he pleases whether or not i reject him, then he's not an omnipotent God is he?

You are apparently unaware of the difference between the words "can't" and "won't". Consult a dictionary -- you used the wrong one in that sentence there.

If you are like me and wonder about Heaven/Hell and fallen angels and... on and on.....

Check this video out for ANOTHER way to view scripture in regards to "fallen angels".

Its a deception that has been dragged out for two thousand plus years now.... lol .... unbelievable from my view anyway.

Fallen angels are a lie??

You be the judge...

Congratulations on writing about the ten billionth thread on how a Fundamentalist such as yourself doesn't like God, and in your judgement, he's immoral.

But since you read the Bible literally, you should be well aware that it says that judgement is one way, and you need not worry about being forced into heaven against your will.

reply to post by adjensen


All he is concerned about is what he wants, so why WON'T he? It's not like he cares what we want. His desires come first and foremost.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

It's not like he cares what we want. His desires come first and foremost.

Where do you find any indication of that?

Originally posted by bismarket
reply to post by followtheevidence

 

If a God can't just do whatever he pleases whether or not i reject him, then he's not an omnipotent God is he? Let's say i want to accept Jesus as my personal saviour & the only thing stopping me is evidence, the brain i was (supposedly) given by this "God" wont let me accept anything without proof just because it'll make me feel good so i want proof & it's not forthcoming, "faith" just doesn't cut it. Why wouldn't this "God" fellow just show up & let himself be known (it's not as if he didn't do that all the time back in the day)? Sorry it just wont wash, not if you want people to believe he's omnipotent, he wouldn't have to follow any "rules" except the ones he set himself.

He could actually force you to join Him for eternity - He chooses to honor your free will.

reply to post by followtheevidence


Absolutely excellent reply.

I think you have expressed what is almost inexpressable.

Originally posted by pheonix358
reply to post by followtheevidence

 

I am sorry. I mean no disrespect to your beliefs but, you only quote what has been written by men, ordinary men, but men who use their version of what God has said for their own power to control and get rich.

This is true of every book of "God's Word" ever written. What annoys me the most is that God allows those who claim to speak in His name to keep speaking.

Why have not a few of the TV evangelists been fried by the odd bolt of divine lightening!

I do not see God's Word, I see slaughter in his name, I see empires built in His name, I see suffering, rape and torture of children by those who profess to serve Him. I see nothing, nothing at all, that is Goodness and Love.


P

I am sad for you if that is all you have seen.
Globally yes, there is all that you mentioned. But on a local level, I have seen devotion, sacrifice, unselfish giving and true faith. That is what Christ taught, that is what being a Christian is all about.

As for heaven: No one can imagine what God has in store for the faithful.

reply to post by followtheevidence


I really like your thinking..... with that said.....

Do you think "God" has already forced it upon us by creating us for his will? Out of time one could actually say we are already in Heaven with him BUT we have chosen to be his expression for him and his love for us... "in time".

I ask you..... How does God express himself?

Here is my answer...

I think He expresses himself through his creation. ALL OF IT, to be exact.

If so.... then can we also say that "God" is creative in His freedom (will) FOR expression... He is logical from each stance of expression and indeed perfect for classifying each and every method he chooses to express.

Nature itself expresses.

Every thing is expressive in nature.

We live in a reality that indeed is expressive. Each expression may manifest or play out every single possible variation of the unlimited possibilities conceivable by consciousness. www.abovetopsecret.com...

This to me is "God"..... a "state of mind", if you will, that expresses through His creation to complete a circle of all realities that are possible to the conceivable mind. It entangles itself to the creation, therefore on a scale of good to bad it is simply a "state" of mind whereas the good can be viewed (by the mind) opposite (bad) per each expression you find yourself in.

There is always something "good" that comes out of something "bad".

Again, relating this all with the OP one can say that God is within us all (expressing with his creation) and He creates all scenarios through us, the eye of the beholder (builder of the mind), is the judge. If the judge (eye of the beholder) steps outside their frame reference of their own mind then the all seeing eye can see the judgement is not what it seems. This is why Jesus says not to judge. Our minds are like rocks.... little children and should indeed be viewed as such.

Originally posted by pheonix358
Do I want to go to Heaven?

I sure don't. Besides, Hell has all the best musicians.

reply to post by pheonix358


i used the term 'matrix ' on purpose OP
because this present world we live in is dumb and limited, and being Spelled

and the consciousness, we have at present, is the same dumb and blind, and tiny awareness,
that is exact the reason why we are incapable of imagining what Heaven d be like.

reply to post by MamaJ


Why did God create us?

Do you know how lucky you are to be alive and to have this moment in time?
We should be honored for having this life and to experience this moment.

Our lives are a gift in it self from God.

It is not Gods fault that we treat our gift like crap. We can not blame God for the things we do to our selves or our neighbour. We can not blame God for the system we worship and maintain. We can not blame God for being unhappy, we can only blame ourselves.

We are the Kings of this world. We have all the living things under our feet. No living thing is above us. But still we don't know how to make things write. We are sitting around waiting for someone to save us from our own created pathetic world. How pathetic are we?

Jesse's; we are Kings of this world. What more do we need?
Why do we need a heaven, when we are master of this world?

The things we do as Kings in this world proves that we are not suited to be honored by God.

reply to post by 1PLA1


I'm humbled you think so.

I'm just happy enough to have this forum as a platform to write out my thoughts.

Thank you very much for your wonderful and encouraging compliment

reply to post by pheonix358


I just wonder if the dead people are just as sad leaving their loved ones as their loved ones are loosing them? In that case Heaven is just as sad a place as earth. You still loose loved ones just in a different way.