The Second Amendment is a Relic - Its Purpose is Long Past.

Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by elysiumfire
zedVSzardoz:

Yeah, that really was a "dafudge did I just read" moment...

Love it!

If I'd been on the end of that, I would still think it's funny. You Americans have some rather good displays of humour about your aphorisms. Now where's that Kozmo? Ah, there you my good fellow...c'mere!

Kozmo:

Well, those Afghanis, with their little "pacifiers" have managed to defeat one of the greatest armies on the planet, the Russians, and have managed to use those little "pacifiers" to hold the world's greatest military, the US, at bay for over a decade.

The Afghanis' level of survival is something most Americans dread. Living in caves, constantly nomadic, eating stuff that would make most westerners puke, and willing to suicide themselves against a more agressive and well-armed enemy. Surely, you do not believe that the great American public are willing to suffer the same hardships that Afghans do, just so that they can keep their guns? Most of you can't go through a full day without showering 3 or 4 times!

How are you going to entertain the kids without electricity for their computer games in a house that has just been flattened by a tank, or a rocket, or having been riddled with more holes than a string vest?

Seriously, do you people think of the gravity of what resistance would actually entail? Are you really aware of the consequences that would befall you all if armed rebellion ever broke out?

Rationality, Kozmo, the spectacles of reality...take your inner eyes to the opticians.

edit on 21/12/12 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)

Awesome - ANOTHER non-sequitur. So, living in caves and eating crap are what make the Afghanis fend off these invading armies. Got it! I thought for a second that it might have something to do with being armed.

And thanks for adding in a few hasty generalizations as well. Very nice seasoning indeed!

The point is they aren't fending off any armies to be honest. They are hiding from them and popping shots when they get a chance. To continue their hiding they are living like cavemen and women.

On top of that the armies for whatever reason, Geneva Convention or whatever are playing nice.

A relic huh?

In 1929 the Soviet Union established
gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun
control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938
and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill,
and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in
1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in
1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in
1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Originally posted by Sandcastler
In 1929 the Soviet Union established
gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun
control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938
and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill,
and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in
1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in
1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in
1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Utter crap. I see no need to go through your whole list (I guess it comes directly from a pro gun site and therefore panders to those that want to read it?) but Germany had gun control prior to Hitler coming to power. His party tightened laws around Jews and other members of society having access to guns. See the following...

www.straightdope.com...

Originally posted by DZAG Wright
The point is they aren't fending off any armies to be honest. They are hiding from them and popping shots when they get a chance. To continue their hiding they are living like cavemen and women.

On top of that the armies for whatever reason, Geneva Convention or whatever are playing nice.

The thing is, you don't have to have a win to have a win.

Warsaw Ghetto uprising: a handful of people with sporting arms rose up, captured military hardware from the Nazis and fought them throughout the Ghetto for months. They ultimately lost, but they tied up large numbers of Nazis who were needed on the front lines for months and deportations to Treblenka were delayed and many Jews were able to escape. Had they been armed like any town in Nevada, they would have done much better.

Even thought the few hundred resisters failed utimately, they did accomplish some good things.

Originally posted by something wicked

Utter crap. I see no need to go through your whole list (I guess it comes directly from a pro gun site and therefore panders to those that want to read it?) but Germany had gun control prior to Hitler coming to power. His party tightened laws around Jews and other members of society having access to guns. See the following...

www.straightdope.com...

Just because Hitler didn't get around to enforcing it until much later, doesn't change the effect.

reply to post by DZAG Wright

The point is they aren't fending off any armies to be honest. They are hiding from them and popping shots when they get a chance. To continue their hiding they are living like cavemen and women.

They aren't all hiding in caves.
One of the beauties of guerrilla warfare is that the guerrillas are farmers, factory workers, hookers and sometimes grandmothers when they aren't ambushing you.

They do this sort of thing:

A fuel tanker in a military convoy exploded inside (the cause of the explosion remains somewhat in doubt with the Russians still claiming it was an accident and the Mujahideen still claiming it was a successful attack) the Salang Tunnel, unleashing a chain reaction of fiery explosions and death. Drivers of cars, trucks and buses evidently continued to enter the tunnel after the explosion. Soviet troops, fearing that the explosion might have been a rebel attack, closed off both ends with tanks, trapping many inside. Some burned to death; others were killed by smoke and by carbon monoxide escaping from vehicles whose drivers kept their engines idling to stay warm in the freezing cold. As many as 700 Soviet troops and 2,000 Afghan soldiers and civilians may have died.[2]

Salang Tunnel Fire

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Sandcastler
In 1929 the Soviet Union established
gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun
control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938
and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill,
and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in
1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in
1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in
1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Utter crap. I see no need to go through your whole list (I guess it comes directly from a pro gun site and therefore panders to those that want to read it?) but Germany had gun control prior to Hitler coming to power. His party tightened laws around Jews and other members of society having access to guns. See the following...

www.straightdope.com...

NOt utter crap. Yes, teh Weimar republic did start some gun control, but the Nazis expanded it and used the law to disarm those they would later put in the camps. The point is valid.

The 1938 German Weapons ActThe 1938 German Weapons Act, the precursor of the current weapons law, superseded the 1928 law. As under the 1928 law, citizens were required to have a permit to carry a firearm and a separate permit to acquire a firearm. Furthermore, the law restricted ownership of firearms to "...persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a (gun) permit." Under the new law:

Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. Writes Prof. Bernard Harcourt of the University of Chicago, "The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition."[4]
The groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement expanded. Holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and NSDAP party members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions. Prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted.[5]
The age at which persons could own guns was lowered from 20 to 18.[5]
The firearms carry permit was valid for three years instead of one year.[5]
Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or ownership of firearms and ammunition.[6]
Under both the 1928 and 1938 acts, gun manufacturers and dealers were required to maintain records with information about who purchased guns and the guns' serial numbers. These records were to be delivered to a police authority for inspection at the end of each year.

On November 11, 1938, the Minister of the Interior, Wilhelm Frick, passed Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons. This regulation effectively deprived all Jews of the right to possess firearms or other weapons.[

Julie, dear, the second amendment is not about weapons of any kind, it is about United States Citizens of all kinds.

DZAG Wright:

The point is they aren't fending off any armies to be honest. They are hiding from them and popping shots when they get a chance. To continue their hiding they are living like cavemen and women.

Quite true. Unfortunately, Kozmo and his ideological kin are deliberately failing to see this point. Kozzy actually believes all the vets are going to come out onto the streets and fight a rebellion with him, like some scene from Les Miserables and the rebellion of June 1832.

Sandcastler:

A relic huh?

In 1929 the Soviet Union established
gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
In 1911, Turkey established gun
control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938
and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill,
and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in
1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in
1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in
1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Can anyone tell me the difference between Sandy's list and the current American gun advocate that believes the gun protects him from a tyrannical government, and that it enables him to resist it? Exclude the fact that the list purports that gun control will automatically lead to the same suffering upon the American people as it is believed to have done with other nations.

Well, the difference is, the American gun advocate is armed, and has still lost constitutional rights, and done absolutely zip, nada, zilch, now't. In fact, it is looking like the only time the gun advocate might even fire a shot is if they try to take his gun away, all other rights being somewhat expendable and not worthy of their time and attention for rebellion. At least the other nationalities have a genuine historical reason for what befell them, America will have no such excuse.

Originally posted by Sandcastler

Originally posted by something wicked

Utter crap. I see no need to go through your whole list (I guess it comes directly from a pro gun site and therefore panders to those that want to read it?) but Germany had gun control prior to Hitler coming to power. His party tightened laws around Jews and other members of society having access to guns. See the following...

www.straightdope.com...

Just because Hitler didn't get around to enforcing it until much later, doesn't change the effect.

No, it means the strawman counts for nothing - Hitlers actions (which repulse me, this is no way trying to show him in a good light) were against certain members of German society - not against the country as a whole. Plus, that 13 million figure, while I don't doubt it (some will) I'm fairly sure they weren't all German residents. In China at the time gun control would have meant very little as the working class on the whole would not have had the money or the means to get a gun.

you posted the example, please show one that shows how many countries do have a level of gun control where the government has not rounded up and either imprisoned or killed hundreds of thousands.

Originally posted by NavyDoc


NOt utter crap. Yes, teh Weimar republic did start some gun control, but the Nazis expanded it and used the law to disarm those they would later put in the camps. The point is valid.

My response was based on the statement that gun control in Germany began in 1938, it didn't so it stands as valid. Yes, I know how many pro 'have any weapon you like otherwise the government will kill you' sites will use that as an example, doesn't actually make it right though does it?

Originally posted by elysiumfire
kozmo:

First, ask Santa for a dictionary - then look up "Non sequitur".

Wow! A sense of humour. You funny!

I don't need a dictionary, young fella', I learned latin at school (that's how bloody old I am!

). Assuming to oneself a greater knowledge than one's unseen debater, really is the mark of a petulant, narcissistic youth...it does not follow that his claim is true! What else can I maul you with?

So, no my "larger mind" does not perceive any similarities.

Yep, that figures. On account of the largesse of 'empty' space within, no doubt? It has often been stated that we use only 10% of our brain, it is in fact quite the myth, but in your case, I'm prepared to go out on a limb and declare it true! Peace.

And now... some ad hominems. Brought to you by your forum-friendly troll! Are you trying to commit every known fallacy?

With civil liberties and freedom being compromised at every level by the federal government and supported by their partisan sheeple, the 2nd amendment has never been more relevant.

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Sandcastler

Originally posted by something wicked

Utter crap. I see no need to go through your whole list (I guess it comes directly from a pro gun site and therefore panders to those that want to read it?) but Germany had gun control prior to Hitler coming to power. His party tightened laws around Jews and other members of society having access to guns. See the following...

www.straightdope.com...

Just because Hitler didn't get around to enforcing it until much later, doesn't change the effect.

No, it means the strawman counts for nothing - Hitlers actions (which repulse me, this is no way trying to show him in a good light) were against certain members of German society - not against the country as a whole. Plus, that 13 million figure, while I don't doubt it (some will) I'm fairly sure they weren't all German residents. In China at the time gun control would have meant very little as the working class on the whole would not have had the money or the means to get a gun.

you posted the example, please show one that shows how many countries do have a level of gun control where the government has not rounded up and either imprisoned or killed hundreds of thousands.

You need to add the word "yet" to the last sentence of your reply.

Originally posted by Sandcastler

You need to add the word "yet" to the last sentence of your reply.

Yawn, not really.

I don't support removing gun rights. It's in the constitution.

But I do think we need better regulations. I researched this a year or so ago and found that many states do not keep guns out of the hands of people who should not have them. If I recall correctly, Arizona is one of the worst offenders and is the home of the Gabrielle Gifford shooting.

See here:
www.azcentral.com - Arizona tied for worst gun safety laws in U.S...

My concern with those who say we should enforce higher mental health standards is that it would just give the pharma industry even more power and I think they're already too powerful. Bottom line, what I think and who I am inside is a freedom and it too can be infringed upon, not just gun ownership. What worth are guns if we're all pharmaceutical robots inside? We have to make sure that whatever our response is to these school shootings or massacres that it's not solely about removing freedoms. It's not freedom that's our enemy, it's the lack of awareness and responsibility. Perhaps some freedoms are too much for the average person to handle, but we could at least regulate those freedoms to ensure that people who're responsible enough for them can gain access to them.

I also think it's a good time to be reminded how many people die every year from vehicle accidents. Some 30,000 people! How many of them are children? How many are sent to hospitals and survive but yet live the rest of their life with a disability? We consider private transportation an essential right, but that's not to say it's rainbows and butterflies. With any freedom, there's an amount of risk.

Did you know that between 1995 and 2005 about 220,000 people in the US died due to coal power pollution? And that over a million die every year globally due to coal power pollution? So should we ban coal power? It kills more people and emits more radioactive particles than nuclear power on a kw/h basis. This means that even if nuclear was as widely used it would be less harmful.

NO freedom is without risk. Every choice we make has risk too. Nobody has perfect knowledge or perfect awareness. But people certainly do fall in different categories of competence.

OP -- if the Second Amendment is now a "relic", I suppose that means I can now blindly trust my government to protect me and rely on my fellow man to have only my best interests at heart?

reply to post by jonnywhite


Yes! Big pharma has laws passed to have every child vaccinated with chemicals than can and do cause autism and a myriad of other maladies. Then, they make big bucks selling the unfortunate, drugs (psychoactives), that "treat" the autistic, mentally impaired, and other diseases caused by the vaccinations. A very lucrative racket.

If, by some fortunate turn of events, you are able to prove this in a court of law, Big Pharma will have you arrested, harassed, even killed to continue their money tree. The laws are not for us any more, only for the ones who own the government.

So all of us just lay back and enjoy the ride, how ever long or short it is.

Originally posted by Julie Washington

Originally posted by TheMindWar
?
Wasnt the 2nd amendment to ensure no tyranical government could have total control over its people because that leads to tyranny?

Please enlighten me as to what has changed about this fact?

Like I said in another thread: Take your automatic weapons to the white house to overthrow our current tyrannical government and tell me how that turns out.

The problem is that with our current somewhat civilized country it shouldn't be necessary to overthrow our government with guns, the power to change government is in your vote.

edit on 19-12-2012 by Julie Washington because: (no reason given)

no offense but hahahahahahahahaha

All politicians be it democrat or republican are two sides of a similar coin. They are almost all crooks and have been for the last 3 decades. There are exceptions to the rule, but when only 10% of them are honest and place the well being of the people over self interests, a good government that does not make. I will vote again when I feel my vote actually counts for something, since I have been at legal age to vote that has been exactly 1 time and I am 38 now, you do the math. Voting now is like rolling 6 sided dice that have snake eyes on every face and expecting to roll a 7 or 11 with those dice. Until people wake up and actually vote for someone who will matter when they run for office this will never change. I would vote Ron Paul but he will never be nominated because he will never have the support of the 2 sided coin.

reply to post by DZAG Wright


I'm a Desert Storm vet KID. all I need to do is sneak up on any piece of armor(Tankers always have crappy security) and pop thermite on the bustle rack or above a magazine area.
I was a scout we used to close and kill, not wait for indirect support like today.Since you seem to believe the military would support such an effort you may have missed some key training we Americans have,LIKE THE OATH YOU TOOK TO DO IT WITH ME.domestic enemy WOULD apply here if they attacked.Must be a REMF with that little attitude.
Thermal sights are good but not everyone has one in service.My instructors will be from DELTA,MACV,and all the other vets I know.I think we will be able to handle you kids just fine.
Cold warriors are a bit ......nastier in our thought processes.Don't f##ck with my country..