The Second Amendment is a Relic - Its Purpose is Long Past.

The whole point here is,if you don't like guns DON'T buy one,theres your gun control.If you don't know how to use one DON'T BUY OR TOUCH ONE.Those kids would be alive if mom had removed the firing pins wouldn't they?
Had they been secured PROPERLY,aka locked in a safe,the kids would again still be alive.Theres gun control.Just like you might handle drain cleaner,only guns are FAR more serious.
Now to those of you who want what I ALREADY own,You are asking for a blood bath.
Kids don't come to my home if they do,THEY DON'T GET NEAR ANY WEAPONS. For 85% of us this is common rational thought.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


QFT... One of the big changes to the uk's legislation regarding guns (following the Dunblaine incident) aside from banning handguns, was to the laws on securing weapons that you do own... Safe storage and handling of weapons is the no. 1 place to start... If it were up to me (which it's not, it has nothing to do with me at all seeing as I don't live in the us) I'd also seriously curtail the ownership of fully automatic weapons... I just don't see the need, not for hunting, not for target shooting and not for he defence... There's plenty of more appropriate and effective weapons for those purposes... Although, to be fair, that's just my unease with lots of retards (I'm NOT saying all gun owners but, inevitably, there will be a good percentage of gun owners fall into the idiot category) owning military grade weapons, and none of the shootings I can think of actually involved anyone using a fully automatic weapon (maybe machine pistol type weapons? I dunno... Stick them on the restricted list to be on the safe side anyway )

Edit: joking aside, we had two or three serial shooters here in the uk this year that I can think of and they used shotguns, or, in the case of the guy near me, he used a crossbow (knocked on doors and then shot people in the face when they answered)... So... I reckon of you go dõwń the ban route you have to ban all private ownership of weapons... By that I mean things DESIGNED to be weapons, not knives and forks but swords and crossbows etc... Not that I'm in favour of that necessarily, it's just that's the logical conclusion to the weapons argument...

A class 3 licence requires a local senior law enforcement signature to obtain 1 ea full auto,or a suppressor,short barreled rifle or shotgun.200.00 per item in question not included in the purchase price.The application is then sent to the BATF for an extensive background check(if you fail they keep the 200.00 anyway) then you can pick up your class 3 or NFA weapon.
This weapon can only be a special type determined by serial number in the system.It must have been made before 1986.
Storage laws are about like France.You have to notify law enforcement when you shoot ,which better not be in city limits and on controlled property,they are subject to confiscation if any of the above conditions aren't met.
A cheap Mac 10 costs about 2000.00
If it fires an explosive round and you want an explosive round you go through all of the above proceedure PER ROUND.
The p90 ammo that is metal jacket is class3.

reply to post by Milkflavour


what would be your stance on educating responsible gun use? i mean there must be a pretty lucrative black market in the gun running there in the uk. all this bickering is making my flu worse so i'm thinking of instead of ignorant people obtaining guns, whoever wants one should be more scrupulous in obtaining guns. the state i live in has had no school shootings in history. where i live it's open carry, work hard party hard and play hard. i have even met californian folks who moved here to own guns. the crime rates there are just firghtening. the sheriffs department in my town are very very nice. if you wanted to model peaceful, slightly eccentric yet symbiotic, hard working people, who are crackshots, there's room for all good proud americans. and having british ancestry, i just want to say "hey neighbor"

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
shootings aside, we can talk about the massive spike in the crime rate

Shootings aside????

No not shootings aside, shooting is exactly the topic, anything else is off topic.

That sounds like you conceding the point.

reply to post by Julie Washington


I am sorry but tell that to all the countries in the Middle East that just had to over throw their governments. Tell that to the people of Syria. Tell that to the people of the world that are fighting tyranny every day. If you believe you are educated and believe there are no need for weapons in the hands of commoners you need to re-educate yourself and look at history, because it does repeat. I am sorry but the moment the government takes away your rights it's the moment to start worrying most. Sorry but if you trust a government that has show how corrupt it is to take away any ability for you to defend yourself you honestly deserve to be enslaved by that government.

And if you think the government is going to take care of you, how is that possible when they can't even make a decision to fix our economy. Moreover, the corruption is in their pockets follow the money rookies.

reply to post by Krusty the Klown


if you kinda think about it, places like chicago, new york, detroit have gun bans. their crime rate is way up

reply to post by Krusty the Klown


I was referring to crime rates. Shootings make up a small proportion of all statistics. It IS all you got. This one shooting and a few singular events that constitute less crime and loss of life than what a small city gets in a year.

I mentioned the UKs ban and the effect on society by its sky rocketing crime rates after.


´Care to address the points or do you agree they are unchallengeable for their truth. You can only play the emotional card over this tragic event. It is a little callous to push a life’s obsession with gun bans on the wings of this one single tragic event. Kids died and anti gun lobbyists can only think of completing their mission. Pitiful.

hu yaobang lives on

reply to post by cavtrooper7


Wow, well, firstly hey to you too

Secondly, it looks to me as though there are fairly stringent rules in place (and a prohibitive cost element) already to attempt to reduce irresponsible ownership of highly dangerous weapons. I think perhaps a lot of people (especially those outside the US, though probably many in it) myself included, have very little knowledge of the types of restrictions on the purchase of high powered weapons. I think we're, many of us, under the impression you can just stroll into Asda (Walmart?) and buy a GPMG with your Doritos... That would seem not to be the case... I think perhaps educating people on the actual laws and safeguards might be a half-decent idea..

In terms of education relating to proper handling of weapons... That's a tough one... Part of me wants to say, as guns are so ubiquitous and an integral part of American culture, there should be some compulsory education in this regard, perhaps through a kind of citizenship/PSE (stands for personal, social education which is part of the curriculum here in the uk) class at school. I don't know how well that would go down but, currently, in uk PSE classes, they have sex education, drugs awareness education etc so, I can't see how running a couple of classes on what to do if you come across guns would hurt... Can't see that being too popular though...

Maybe there could be a requirement that, to own a gun you must demonstrate that you've educated both yourself and those in your household about the safe use and handling of firearms? Maybe even something akin to the Annual Personal Weapons Test that soldiers must undergo evwry year in lrder to demonstrate safe handling amd weapons competency... You could make it every two or three years maybe even five or something, throw in a little safe storage for good measure? I don't know how practical that would be and I can't see it been too popular either...

What about the govt. running an aggressive ad campaign (aggressive as in visible and proactive, not in tone) about the safe use of guns: billboards, tv advertisement, radio ads.... Raising awareness as a whole regarding safe weapons handling.... The uk does stuff like this all the time, recently we've had a big campaign regarding healthy eating and getting more exercise, mainly targeting families and kids... Also we've had them regarding smoking cessation, domestic abuse, fire safety etc... They're not lecturing or fingerpointing, just trying to give people the info required to make an informed choice...

I dunno... What are your thoughts?

Whilst the stats for gun violence in the US are high, and broadcast far and wide (especially at time's like this) they never actually say what percentage of these crimes are committed using legally obtained firearms... So, I think it's hard to make an assessment about what action would be helpful and what areas to target when we aren't given all the facts..

In regards to the mass shootings though, I can't see how stricter gun laws would help that... There's much bigger, underlying problems at the heart of it and, they are complicated and very hard to address. I understand that it's much easier to target guns and gun laws, you don't have to think too hard or look too closely at yourselves and you get to feel like you're 'doing something about it'... Still, it won't stop the shootings... The guns used
In these crimes are already out there, theyre not going away so, I think it calls for a more intelligent solution than BAN ALL THE GUNS!

Sorry for the essay...

reply to post by Milkflavour


okay instead of banning guns, if the culture of responsible eyes wide open hard working benevolence. the person who went and killed twenty people, was a disillusioned patsy. on the opposite end of the spectrum, audie murphy, whose nightmares after wartime continued with him until the end and reality for him was so starkly clear, that him as a responsible gun owner and celebrity reminds some of us that hard work, sacrifice, and the ability to self govern by all means, is mentally clarifying, this patsy, has been a flicker rate victim, latchkey kid with no means of having a realistic perspective on his own surroundings or proper discipline. once we get out of tunnel vision and look at things from all angles(official cover story with holes like a sieve suggesting patsy.) if we give up our second ammendment it takes away variables in which us peasants, serfs whatever we are and were called, to have equal force as the military to keep them in check. that is the second ammendment if we don't have this evolutionary defense variable, then the ones who are in government who are by some percentage human can get carried away. it's not about winning but fighting until any if at all opressive force is unable to continue on the way they do when they are the ones in control. the government should fear us, we should not fear our government. if you still disagree, i'm not bothered but it's your hangup for ruffling your feathers about this whole shooting unarmed students with they key term unarmed as an unigorable variable

reply to post by rockoperawriter


Hey,

Well, I'm not too sure what you were driving at there mate, i don't mean to be critical but it was a bit hard to read. I think maybe we have our wires crossed here. I'm not advocating a gun ban (not that it's up to me or any of my business except that you asked what my thoughts on education were) and I thought I was fairly clear on that. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

I'll restate my position here and try to be concise:

I don't believe banning guns will solve anything.

I think some form of educating people on proper weapons handling and safe storage would be helpful, as 'cav' states at the top of this page, this most recent shooting may well have been prevented if the weapons used were properly stored.

I think the stats on gun violence are incomplete as there is no information on what percentage of crimes committed involve legally obtained weapons (or if there is they are not broadcast even half as much as the overall crime stats). This makes it difficult to ascertain where resources should be directed and what areas of policy could/should be targeted.

I think that the call to ban guns is an easy, catch-all, yet superficial 'solution' and is appealing to most because it is easier, more immediate and more comfortable than taking a thorough and introspective look at the, admittedly complex underlying issues.

I think that the call to ban guns is the same as the eagerness of many on this site to blame some kind of higher conspiracy. It's easier and more palatable than the real truth: that someone, anyone of us, could be so damaged, dissilusioned, sick and inadequately cared for that they could walk into a school and kill 28 people...

Edit: I'm not saying its a cop out, and I'm not suggesting it's a conscious denial of the likely truth. I'm just saying it's easier for people to process and gives them an outlet and a focus (or enemy/scapegoat) for the emotions and thoughts they are trying to deal with.

I work in mental health services here in the uk and have done for well over ten years now. It is not so surprising to me (though still as depressing) that this could happen. When you see just how poorly and deluded people can become its not had to imagine that, without the proper help and treatment, someone could go as far as to commit such a horrible crime. I have worked with many that have committed horrible acts of violence due to their paranoid and delusional thoughts: people who have removed their own eyes, cut their own throats, started serious fires, killed, tortured etc. All through being mentally ill and either lacking treatment or being treatment resistant.

Sorry for going off at a tangent there at the end but hopefully I've clarified my position on the issue.


Second edit: also, I see that my second post on this page was a reply to Cavtrooper and it should have been to you rockoperawriter... The first paragraph regarding the apparently strict controls however, was a reference to Cavtrooper's post on the requirements for obtaining weapons...

Originally posted by Milkflavour
reply to post by rockoperawriter

 

Hey,

Well, I'm not too sure what you were driving at there mate, i don't mean to be critical but it was a bit hard to read. I think maybe we have our wires crossed here. I'm not advocating a gun ban (not that it's up to me or any of my business except that you asked what my thoughts on education were) and I thought I was fairly clear on that. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

I'll restate my position here and try to be concise:

I don't believe banning guns will solve anything.

I think some form of educating people on proper weapons handling and safe storage would be helpful, as 'cav' states at the top of this page, this most recent shooting may well have been prevented if the weapons used were properly stored.

I think the stats on gun violence are incomplete as there is no information on what percentage of crimes committed involve legally obtained weapons (or if there is they are not broadcast even half as much as the overall crime stats). This makes it difficult to ascertain where resources should be directed and what areas of policy could/should be targeted. the process of legally obataining weapons is a very social event. be it at a store, in my town, you go in fill out one form, talk shop, have some coffee, and a few benjamins later, you got a fine weapon of preference. it's best to exhibit delighted anticipation through subtle almost comical inflection, as for crime by legally obtained guns we got suicides, meth related domestic disputes etc. not a lot of massacres unless you talk to crazyhorse or sitting bull but they nabbed custer

Edit: I'm not saying its a cop out, and I'm not suggesting it's a conscious denial of the likely truth. I'm just saying it's easier for people to process and gives them an outlet and a focus (or enemy/scapegoat) for the emotions and thoughts they are trying to deal with.

the more i look into this event in human history it seems like a false flag to me with inconsistencies in key people in the events that took place. remembering the city of my birth, i have seen death the likes of which give me nightmares even though these events were early on in my life some accidental some intentional. one thing that woke me up is human ruthlessness in a metropolitan area. red, blue, you get the picture. i move a few hundred miles away and when you're in the woods, nobody gets down, behind something when they hear a gunshot. took me five years to get over the fact that these gunshots were at deer, metal trashcans, beer/soda cans, and whatever was in season at the time. the first time i ever fired a weapon i was 14, early november, those pumpkins went down and we all went back inside, field stripped and cleaned some rifles. the first positive connection i made with guns was successful in shaping my logic and quelling my stigma about guns in a hands on family oriented cold get up at sunrise to bother and tease the neighbors, have a laugh and some cold medicine

edit on 23-12-2012 by rockoperawriter because: (no reason given)

We would have to have way more social unity or the medical profession would actually have to start curing people(there's no money in that)
As to how to resolve the current situation, fight fire with fire is the only logical course.All these guns wouldn't disappear overnight with any ban and they sure as hell will not confiscate what is already owned. Although New York seems to think they will :www.bizpacreview.com...
Armed trained guards.Not teachers most don't have that mindset,but the option should be open to those who pass background checks intended for that purpose.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


new york is key in resisting gun bans

reply to post by rockoperawriter


If they have the balls to show us they can, great.