Guns Don't Make Us Free. Period.

reply to post by milominderbinder


I think you make an excellent point. People who are steadfast about protecting their right to arm themselves often say, `I need guns to protect myself from an oppressive government.` Yet, when the government is actually oppressive these same gun owners do nothing but sit back and watch with a smug smile.

Where are these American patriots who protect their fellow citizens I keep hearing so much about? I see people like Adam Kokesh uploading videos of `open carry` events and talking how important it is for the common person to walk around with firearms but I do not see these people protecting anyone. Where are the freedom loving gun owners when cops are beating the crap out of people?

I was born and raised in West Virginia, USA. I remember seeing a lot of oppressive behavior from the government. I have seen striking coal miners get shot by police simply for demanding that Massy Coal Co. carry out proper safety measures so miners don`t get killed while being down in the mine. I have seen cops set people up for arrest simply because they don`t like that person.

These days I live in Japan and still I see the government of America, and the governments of the states, oppress the common person in America and not a single `patriot` gun owner does anything about it.

Seeing that it is clear the argument that `We needs guns to protect ourselves from the government` is not the real reason why many Americans want to arm themselves, I find myself wondering what is the real reason.

What is the real material reason for the common person living in The United States of America to be armed?

Originally posted by freedomwv
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

I think you make an excellent point. People who are steadfast about protecting their right to arm themselves often say, `I need guns to protect myself from an oppressive government.` Yet, when the government is actually oppressive these same gun owners do nothing but sit back and watch with a smug smile.

You can say this about any of the first 10 amendments... Why don't we just get rid of them too?

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Apparently someone thinks the only way to be free is to go around shooting people on sight, and their elected leaders.

If anything that shows Americans are a slave to no one meaning they could end their "oppressors" at any time of their choosing,.

And yet the don't.

edit on 17-12-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

Yeah...keep telling yourself that, buddy.

Whatever gets you through the night.

Look at what they do when we have guns....
can you imagine the stuff they'll do when we don't have them?

It is such a stupid argument to say we need guns or else the government will screw us. So what are you waiting for....

Just like..if they take our guns...only criminals will have guns..hey dumb asses...these criminals are getting a lot of their gun from you guys.

Firearms Stolen during Household Burglaries and Other Property Crimes, 2005-2010

About 1.4 million guns, or an annual average of 232,400, were stolen during burglaries and other property crimes in the six-year period from 2005 through 2010. On average, firearms were stolen in an annual average of about 4% of the 2.4 million burglaries occurring each year, in 2% of the 529,200 robberies, and in less than 1% of the 13.6 million other crimes involving theft from 2005 through 2010. From 2005 through 2010, 86% of burglaries and 75% of other property crimes involving a stolen firearm were reported to police.

So good job on keeping guns from criminals..

Originally posted by freedomwv
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

What is the real material reason for the common person living in The United States of America to be armed?

Those who are aware of the US history know that the "right" to property was earned by guns in the hands of individuals. To many proud Americans, to give up their guns is to repudiate the manner in which the country came to be.

It's not a complicated issues. Ban assault weapons and large clips. ( If you need a bushmaster to protect your home....you're not doing it right.) Fund what's necessary to update the database. Make background checks more robust. Close the loop holes. Then change directions and lets increase mental health awareness and treatment funding especially in schools, where this shooters warning signs first surfaced.

It's true that this guy (these recent guys) would have killed without his (their) assault rifle, but it wouldn't have been as easy. It's a different thing. We're not talking about a homicide but about a mass killing. That's the difference.

flice, you had some insightful contributions to this thread. It's nice to have a reasonable debate without it degrading into insults and T&C violations...Thumbs Up!

The 2nd amendment was created in times of strife and uncertainty. Back then there was a reason and due worry to actually promote the vigilant safety of citizens.

On the surface the explanation that times were different when the Constitution was is a valid one, and to a large extent you are most certainly correct. An important rebuttal, however, is that the Founding Fathers were intelligent men. They were insightful. They were pragmatic and each a statesman.They were not naive. Most importantly, they understood corruption. They knew tyranny. They just finished fighting a war against a mighty king and a great nation...and they won! They wanted a form of government that could not be swayed, protected its citizens, and preserved civil rights, as they knew it. Placing the 2nd amendment, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, was a deliberate and adamant measure to protect the individual. The Bill of Rights are specific rights of the individual. It extends beyond the right to establish and maintain a well-regulated militia. Probably the most notable and significant U.S. Supreme Court case supporting the 2nd amendment is District of Columbia v Heller, in which The Court ruled that the 2nd amendment protects the rights of the individual to possess a firearm, unconnected to to service in a militia. That last part is really important. Actually, wikipedia has a really thorough and excellently written page on this subject.

However times have changed, for the better. You are now one nation. A nation that should be respecting each other, be an example of bio diversity and cultural multitude.

Yes, times have changed, but speaking as an American citizen, a patriot, and a veteran, I'm not convinced this country has changed for the better. Yes, I think the public citizen's spirit is one that is prosperous and righteous, but our politicians, Washington, our government, has taken a negative turn for the past 60 years. Money, greed, impulse, ambition, and the atentuation of wealth has corrupted our leaders, weakened this nation, and fractured it's spirit. Yes, cultural diversity and bio-diversity should be revered, but unfortunately, our leaders have perverted these qualities time and time again, only to have revolutions later to overcome them. It makes no sense, my friend.

I'm not a bleeding heart (lol), but you had some excellent ideas about fear. Our politicians have invented fear, have bred fear, and we have swallowed these imagined fears. Slavery, women's suffrage, gay rights, etc. We allow them to spoon feed us. When is enough enough?

If I'm anything I'm a realist. I'm pragmatic enough to know that there will be no significant change in the nation's gun laws overnight. The firearms industry makes a lot of money and all you have to do is follow the money, as Bob Woodward put it. Now, I own firearms, I have a concealed carry permit, and I live in the state of New York, which is an extremely restrictive state, as far as owning firearms go. I have used my firearm one-time to stave off a robbery by knife. People have the wrong idea about personal ownership of firearms. They are defensive tools, never offensive. People are gravely mistaken if they believe their firearms are to be used for anything OTHER THAN personal and home defense.

The "law on the books" NEEDS to change. There needs to be reasonable, yet effective and stringent gun laws, AND penalties. Right now, the problem is that most gun legislation is "feel-good" legislation. They are weak and pointless. I have not verified it but I read something that reported that up to 40% of states do NOT require background checks. That's insane. In New York, it took me six months to obtain my pistol permit; I submitted all my medical and health records, including all mental health records. This is in addition to the standard criminal background check.

Well, it's time for bed. Talk to ya soon, friend. Be well.

reply to post by michael1983l

It is a fascist state because you are saying it is my way or the highway.

No, it's just the only thing that can be said to brainwashed politically correct people. There is no negotiating the second amendment. It is simple.
The only way to change that is to convene a Constitutional Convention and have everybody ratify a change in the Amendment and that is just not going to happen as long as there are as many gun owners in America who know the Constitution and the reason the Revolutionary War was fought as there are.

This is also why Obama and Hillary were pushing the UN Small Arms Treaty, as a run-around Congress.
I think Obama may try an Executive Order of sorts, as suggested and recommended by some liberal politician, and he seems to think he can do anything he wants with EO's when he can't force Congress and the American people to do as he says.

What is the real material reason for the common person living in The United States of America to be armed?

...and I'll be the first to say that there ARE some valid reasons. As an avid backpacker and mountain hiker...I started carrying a firearm with me when camping the first time I got chased by a bear. Luckily...it was just a little black bear and not a grizzly...otherwise there's a good chance I might not be here right now.

But even for warding off friggin' GRIZZLY BEARS one doesn't need to have a gun that has holds 30 rounds at a time. Hunters have routinely killed bears with a single well-placed shot for hundreds of years. Five or ten shots should be more than enough to kill, disable, or scare it off.

I'm also TOTALLY COOL with the "home defense" idea. No problem with a shotgun in the closet or a revolver in the night stand (assuming you don't live with a person whom you KNOW is mentally ill). But both revolvers and shotguns take a bit to reload...you can't just keep spraying the crowd two seconds later after you pop in a new magazine.

Likewise, my in-laws are retired dairy farmers and routinely use their guns to keep down nuisance animals. A pack of coyotes living the woods 100 yards away isn't the healthiest thing in the world for their small grandchildren and their springer spaniel. TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE. But when Gramps hears the coyotes acting up he doesn't go charging out the door with an AK-47 and an UZI...he just grabs that old winchester of his and sits on the porch to wait.

However...the idea my father-in-law and his NRA buddies (most of whom are in their 50's and 60's) are going to liberate the people or whatever is just stupid. In fact...my experience has been that the more die-hard, right-leaning, NRA member is ACTUALLY the biggest apologist for oppression in the entire country and almost UNIVERSALLY take the side of "Big Government" against the Occupy protestors, racial minorities, and the poor.

It's a joke. They are a parody of themselves.

Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by freedomwv
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

What is the real material reason for the common person living in The United States of America to be armed?

Those who are aware of the US history know that the "right" to property was earned by guns in the hands of individuals. To many proud Americans, to give up their guns is to repudiate the manner in which the country came to be.

Really? I thought all that property was stolen by enacting a brutal genocide against the Indians.

You might want to check those history books again...

Originally posted by Ghost375
Look at what they do when we have guns....
can you imagine the stuff they'll do when we don't have them?

The same exact thing they're doing now.

You know why? Because there is ZERO THREAT of the NRA owners rising up to defend the rights of their fellow Americans by force if necessary. It just gives you guys a false sense of security to make you feel like you have some sort of power or control...despite the fact that have none. You are a slave...armed or not...it changes nothing. 100% of the time Federal Reserve wins...and you lose.

In fact...the prevailing attitude in the demographic as a whole is that the police should be applauded for using chemical weapons on the Occupy Protestors, black people deserve whatever the cops give them, and that allowing the Banksters to rob their fellow citizens of THEIR HOMES is a good thing or that they "deserved it"...hell...a whole lot of them have even been excusing RAPE in one form or another the last 12 months or so.

It's all talk. It's a joke. We are the most armed country in the world...and ALSO the LEAST FREE NATION ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET.

Originally posted by kerazeesicko
It is such a stupid argument to say we need guns or else the government will screw us.

So what are you waiting for....

Just like..if they take our guns...only criminals will have guns..hey dumb asses...these criminals are getting a lot of their gun from you guys.

Firearms Stolen during Household Burglaries and Other Property Crimes, 2005-2010

About 1.4 million guns, or an annual average of 232,400, were stolen during burglaries and other property crimes in the six-year period from 2005 through 2010. On average, firearms were stolen in an annual average of about 4% of the 2.4 million burglaries occurring each year, in 2% of the 529,200 robberies, and in less than 1% of the 13.6 million other crimes involving theft from 2005 through 2010. From 2005 through 2010, 86% of burglaries and 75% of other property crimes involving a stolen firearm were reported to police.

So good job on keeping guns from criminals..

Yep.

Originally posted by micmerci

Originally posted by khimbar

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Do you have any idea what an insurmountable task it would be to disarm American, there are people with arsenals, and I imagine more then we realize.

Genuine question I have here, one I've been thinking about.

'I'm president. I announce a 1000% tax on all arms sales and ammunition. It's effective immediately and I use one of those convenient presidential powers I've given myself to do it.

At the same time I offer to buy back all guns at twice the current market value, for cash or for three times value with US bonds'.

Would that go some way to doing it? Maybe a fraction?

Immediately the criminals on the black market arms sales would throw you a party for making them the new billionaires. Ammunition is easy to produce privately as well.

We don't have to worry about criminals having guns...they really aren't that big of a problem

We need to worry about CRAZY PEOPLE having guns. Adam Lanza isn't a "criminal" in the traditional sense. He wasn't a mobster or street thug. He wasn't dealing drugs or stealing cars. He wasn't a rapist. He didn't mug anybody.

Hell...he wasn't even a traditional SERIAL KILLER that exhibits a repeat pattern of stalking and killing.

HE JUST WENT BAT#.

That's what we need to acknowledge. He WAS LAW-ABIDING...right up until the voices in his head or whatever made him snap.

Originally posted by 11235813213455

Originally posted by freedomwv
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

I think you make an excellent point. People who are steadfast about protecting their right to arm themselves often say, `I need guns to protect myself from an oppressive government.` Yet, when the government is actually oppressive these same gun owners do nothing but sit back and watch with a smug smile.

You can say this about any of the first 10 amendments... Why don't we just get rid of them too?

edit on 17-12-2012 by 11235813213455 because: (no reason given)

Who said anything about getting rid of the Second Amendment?

reply to post by milominderbinder

Really? I thought all that property was stolen by enacting a brutal genocide against the Indians.

And they did it with superior weaponry.

We're all Indians now.

Originally posted by amazing
It's not a complicated issues. Ban assault weapons and large clips. ( If you need a bushmaster to protect your home....you're not doing it right.) Fund what's necessary to update the database. Make background checks more robust. Close the loop holes. Then change directions and lets increase mental health awareness and treatment funding especially in schools, where this shooters warning signs first surfaced.

Exactly. It's basic arithmetic here guys.

For all the dogma and rhetoric surrounding the Second Amendment...I don't hear anyone complaining that they can't buy a handheld Stinger surface-to-air missile at WalMart. Why not? Those are "arms", right? How many people are really, really pissed that it's illegal to buy a fully armed Apache helicopter? How many Tomahawk cruise missiles do you all own?

...and for all the silly fear about the "communists" or "liberal extremists"...please remember that in 1988 His Holiness Saint Ronald Reagan, Bearer of the Light and All That Is Pure, signed legislation to restrict firearms designed to evade standard means of detection (like X-Ray and Metal Detectors) because it seemed fairly obvious that there isn't a great deal of reason one would need to sneak such items into say...a courthouse or an airport.

It's true that this guy (these recent guys) would have killed without his (their) assault rifle, but it wouldn't have been as easy. It's a different thing. We're not talking about a homicide but about a mass killing. That's the difference.

Correct. That's the downside of firearms being "The Great Equalizer". From the looks of the kid...I'm pretty sure Ms. Soto could have knocked him out with one punch when he was reloading his revolver. He wasn't exactly what I would call PHYSICALLY intimidating. It would STILL have been a horrible, horrible tragedy...but we would only be mourning an absolute maximum of 6 people right now and perhaps less if he missed a couple of times.

Again...we can't "childproof" the world...but we don't necessarily have to keep the cutlery in the nursery either.

reply to post by milominderbinder

It's basic arithmetic here guys.

Have you ever done the math on how many murders are committed every day with bare fists?

For all the dogma and rhetoric surrounding the Second Amendment...

Screw the 2nd amendment, the right to self defense is a natural law. Being hung up on some old dead white guy's words is the crazy part.

reply to post by seabag

You don't miss what you've never had...

what an interesting thing to say

it's also true - on several different levels

I think you just reinforced the OPs point

the idea that guns equal freedom is a mirage, a delusion - a fantasy

reply to post by milominderbinder


A lot of things happened leading up to 1776 too. It wasn't a knee jerk reaction, but rather a buildup of events.