Where does the idea that Freemasons worship Lucifer come from??

Yikes. Ignorance, fanaticism, and mental illness knows no bounds. Reality is a foreign concept to some. As is grammar IE. spelling words correctly that might help to give credence to unsubstantiated posts whereas the opposite only magnifies the ignorance mirrored in the inability to comprehend presented and demonstrable logic that contradicts and sadly eludes some. I guess reality eludes some. Took a lot of words to see that ! SMIB

Originally posted by pepsi78

www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk...
It is perhaps important to make clear some facts about this web site, so that no one is misled or mistaken as to its purpose and function. The Rosslyn Templars is a small group of Scottish Freemasons dedicated to researching Rosslyn Chapel. The group is self-funding and is entirely independent of any other group whatsoever. Therefore, although all members are Freemasons they do not act for, or represent any other group of Freemasons. Nor do they have any connection with any particular branch of Freemasonry such as the Scottish Masonic Knights Templar whose governing body is the Great Priory of Scotland. This decision was made in order to maintain a strict independence from any other Masonic organisation.

edit on 4-7-2011 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

wow man, the above quote is what I spent like 12 pages of another thread trying to get you to understand, and you used this in a post. Just wow. Pepsie, you truly are one of a kind. You remind me of my grandfather. He liked to argue so much, that he would take the other side of any discussion just to get you excited. His eyes would twinkle.

reply to post by pepsi78

You didn't answer what I posted here:

So no love for the York Rite? So the Shriners and the Scottish Rite control us? Bull crap. I've explained the structure and hierarchy of Freemasonry to you several times. The Scottish Rite does not have supreme control nor does the Shrine. 

I do know of at least one 33rd degree Mason, but he hasn't been on in a while that I know of. Being a 33rd doesn't make you infallible or privy to some explosive secret. Nor is he held to be some kind of god to us Masons. He's earned a great deal of respect for the work he has put into Masonry and to his community. I'm not going to bad mouth 33rds as they are obviously dedicated Masons, but the Scottish Rite is a branch of the Freemasons. 

Should we also forget the other rites such as the Swedish Rite?

reply to post by pepsi78

So a picture made over 5 centuries later is evidence? When did artists renditions become anything more then their opinion?

So you're choosing to follow an organization that was in the pocket of the king who was leveling these charges? So you're easily moved by random pictures and paintings? Anyone with a utensil can make a painting or drawing, still doesn't make it anymore than their perception or opinion. 

reply to post by pepsi78

You know one of my jobs is being an intelligence analyst, and one of hose duties is assess the levels of credibility of sources of reports. If you think these things make credible evidence of anything, you really need to look again and hopefully will align your beliefs with a more solid foundation.

reply to post by pepsi78

Any Rosslyn, St. Clair/Sanclair, or Templar historian disagrees that any Templar connection to Rosslyn Chapel is a romanticized idea created through rumor and the fog of history.

I do know of at least one 33rd degree Mason, but he hasn't been on in a while that I know of. Being a 33rd doesn't make you infallible or privy to some explosive secret. Nor is he held to be some kind of god to us Masons. He's earned a great deal of respect for the work he has put into Masonry and to his community. I'm not going to bad mouth 33rds as they are obviously dedicated Masons, but the Scottish Rite is a branch of the Freemasons. 

Yes it is my personal opinion, not that they control them with orders but that they higher masons know more and are involved into the managment of the organisation. It's control.

So a picture made over 5 centuries later is evidence? When did artists renditions become anything more then their opinion?

I would say it's a cumulative factor among the other things, coming from a neutral source, a painter that has no objective into conspiracy.

So you're choosing to follow an organization that was in the pocket of the king who was leveling these charges? So you're easily moved by random pictures and paintings? Anyone with a utensil can make a painting or drawing, still doesn't make it anymore than their perception or opinion. 

As I said it;s not just one item but many that would point to a whole.

You know one of my jobs is being an intelligence analyst, and one of hose duties is assess the levels of credibility of sources of reports. If you think these things make credible evidence of anything, you really need to look again and hopefully will align your beliefs with a more solid foundation.

They do, the artist had no intent to damage the image of the templars, the artist was not conspiring. He was simply painting placing the templars there at the shrine. Before any painting was found they already thought that the shrine belong to the templars because of the objects found there, the painting would indicate that it is the case even more.

As for the painting if it's credible I do not know what you are talking about, the painting is authentic, not a hoax.
It has an artist, a date, it's an authentical art work.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes it is my personal opinion, not that they control them with orders but that they higher masons know more and are involved into the managment of the organisation. It's control.

How does a person who is involved with the operations of an appendant body 'control' Masons who are not in that body (which would be most of them)?

How does a person who is involved with the operations of an appendant body 'control' Masons who are not in that body (which would be most of them)?

It's simple higher level masons set the rules of the organisation. Any fraternity does that, there is the freshmen and the veteran. Is masonry not a fraternity ?

reply to post by pepsi78


You sound like such a fool. You really have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Go find a new hobby if you're not gonna really try this one honestly.

reply to post by IKTOMI

We should get back on topic, Lucy and the masons. I feel we have derailed the thread with masons running masons.

reply to post by pepsi78

Only those who are elected are in managerial positions. You also have appointed officers and committee members, but they have no managerial authority, but rather complete a task needed by the presiding officer. Attaining a degree level doesn't give you automatic rank though nor control, you have to be elected by the voting members to be in a managerial position.

The credibility and authenticity of your sources is lacking. Noted historians disagree with your view as they cannot find any credibility in the romanticized ideas. Again, regardless of the artist's intent, it's nothing more than his perception or opinion.

reply to post by pepsi78

Except the Scottish Rite cannot and does not set the rules of the Blue Lodge or other appendant organizations, and vice versa. The appendant orders require permission from the Blue Lodge to operate within a jurisdiction. At each level the voting members vote on the elections and legislation at the proper business meeting. Every level defines who compose the voting members. Unless someone is a voting member they cannot vote and unless they are elected they cannot manage the operations and preside. Degree doesn't equal rank.

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by IKTOMI

 

We should get back on topic, Lucy and the masons. I feel we have derailed the thread with masons running masons.

Actually Lucy and the masons was one of the funniest things i'v read aka poster Lucifer777 vs the ATS Masons he brought up interesting counter points to the Masons theology and the pictures he posted were pure genius sure some of it was a work in that both sides saw the humor in it but i'll never forget it...

But back on topic, i would say if you were going to sum up the Masons in a theoretical fourm in terms of generalizing them to a certin religious application i would say Gnostic would seem more logical because there members worship different stuff from Christ to yes even Satan to i'm told Yoda by the great Jordan Maxwell...

reply to post by King Seesar

Gnostics and Sophia, I have a hard time reading their material because they lack any credibility, these things appear no where in history, with the story of sophia. Sophia exists as a Chrisitan figure but the stories from gnostics with Sophia are invented. Where are the stories the gnostics tell about her recorded in history ? I'll tell you, no where, meaning they are brand new. With Sofia and Lucifer being the good guy, with her falling into the material world.

I tired looking for older sources, but came up with no luck, meaning they made it up.
One tendency from such groups such as the gnostics, masonry included, I noticed they try to make Lucifer the good guy, promote Satan as the good guy or say that Lucifer is not Lucifer.

Originally posted by pepsi78

It's simple higher level masons set the rules of the organisation. Any fraternity does that, there is the freshmen and the veteran. Is masonry not a fraternity ?

This argument doesn't hold up. The rules are set by Grand Lodge, which consists of representatives from each Lodge. Any new Masonic legislation must pass at least a simple majority vote of the membership, with most articles requiring a 2/3 majority.

For someone to state that "higher level Masons" do this, it just shows they know absolutely nothing about how Masonry actually works..

reply to post by Masonic Light

It's just my opinion, anyway this is really of topic, internal affairs of masonry are off chart, if you wish to debate about the goat and masonry as satanism then it will be a pleajure to debate with you.

Originally posted by pepsi78
It's just my opinion, anyway this is really of topic, internal affairs of masonry are off chart, if you wish to debate about the goat and masonry as satanism then it will be a pleajure to debate with you.

Sorry, but I really don't care anything about goats or satanism. Therefore, I apologize for interrupting a perfectly asinine conversation.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by pepsi78
It's just my opinion, anyway this is really of topic, internal affairs of masonry are off chart, if you wish to debate about the goat and masonry as satanism then it will be a pleajure to debate with you.

Sorry, but I really don't care anything about goats or satanism. Therefore, I apologize for interrupting a perfectly asinine conversation.

I 2nd that motion. A good debate would require both sides having actually studied the subject in depth , and the side that actually knows more about the subject has taken a solemn oath not to talk about it.

On a final note. I happen to like goats, they're cute

Originally posted by pepsi78
It's just my opinion...

So your opinion is that a side group runs the main body of the Fraternity with 'high-level' Masons giving orders to others that are not even in the same orginization? Do you typically listen to people who have no bearing on your life?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

If you want to debate on it open a new thread and maybe I will participate, I don't see why this one should be derailed.

Originally posted by pepsi78
If you want to debate on it open a new thread and maybe I will participate, I don't see why this one should be derailed.

If you do not want people to comment on your off-topic remarks then maybe you should not make off-topic remarks.


But if you feel like you actually have a clue about the subject then add to the thread which I posted and deals directly with misguided opinions such as yours.

The Scottish Rite and its importance to anti-Masons

If you do not want people to comment on your off-topic remarks then maybe you should not make off-topic remarks.

yes my mistake.

reply to post by King Seesar

Hi King

Presumably at reaching the Masonic 33rd Degree, the Grand Mster Mason Candidate is introduced to the concept of SOPHIA (‘wisdom’) which is coded as the SECRET of BAPHOMET (using the Hebrew ATBACH Gematrial Cipher where Aleph = Tav, and Beth = Shin etc.

S-O-PH-Y-A = atbash reversal = B-F-O-M-T

Which is related to Solar (sun) Worship, the goat representing the Sun of Wisdom or Enlightenment as it is expressed star-astrological Sign of Capricorn (beginning Dec 22, the birth of the sun-deity, later taken over by Christians for their Sun of Righteousness Messiah on Dec 25)

According to ‘The Dionysian Artificers and Early Masonry’ (ed. Manly P Hall) the Capricorn Sun Goat relates to the pre-Christian Androgynous (male-female) god Dionysius who is pictured with hooved feet – Images of Baphomet show him with a Cadeucus for a Phallus and with Female breasts

The Goat-god was accepted by the later Greek Mystery Schools as the symbol of the Temple Builders. In fact the Dionysian Artificers formed one of the many Greek Mystery Schools – who viewed practical Temple Construction as a source of understanding the mystery of Nature and God; thus being one of the early esoteric schools from which Masonry has inherited certain symbols and teachings.

"The Dionysian Artificers or architects were an Association of Scientific men, incorporated by command of the Kings of Pergamus into a corporate Lodge in the city of TEAS which was assigned to them - the members of this association were connected with the Dionysian mysteries, were distinguished from the uninitiated inhabitants of Teos by their Science and by words and signs by which they could recognize their Brethern of the Order.
Like Freemasons they were divided into Lodges which were characterized by different names. Such is the nature of that association of architects, who erected those splendid edifices in Ionia, whose ruins even afford us instructions, while they excite our surprise. If it be possible to prove the identity of any two societies, from the coincidence of their external forms, we are authorized to conclude that the Fraternity of Ionian architects and the Fraternity of Freemasons are exactly the same" says Dr. R. Swineburne Clymer in his book: Ancient Mystic Oriental Masonry.

Besides representing the Temple or Home of the gods, the goat represents the active male sexual or fertility aspect of nature. As Capricorn he rules the returning sun, from the darkness of winter solstice. In the sign of the Goat/Capricorn the sun begins to resume its ascent towards the spring Equinox. The goat horn is a hallowed Phallic symbol, represented even today as the cup of plenty or cornucopia which we see represented in the Lodge.

The Goat of Mendes or Baphomet whom the Templars were accused of worshipping is a Goat Headed deity, being formed of both male and female principles, with a Caduceus of Mercury for its phallus. One arm points up and one down , with the latin ' Solve et Coagula' written on them. This is not the christian devil but a symbol of the ancient alchemists representing the fact that nature and natures God is a combination and balance of male and female forces, light and darkness, moisture and dryness. The very principle of Hermes Trismegitus; As Above So Below" is what is symbolized by 'Baphomet' =- SOPHIA (Wisdom).

Another Goat headed deity worship by the ancient pagan Celtic peoples was Cernnunos the horned god of the Wood. Today in witchcraft covens the goat head is seen to symbolize this ancient deity.
Unfortunately to the those who remain in the dark, these goat deities seem as the Devil rather than the true import of being symbols of the life giving principles of the Sun, Earth, Moon, Fertility and Prima Materia of the Alchemists…”