Christians, what would your Jesus do, if here today!?

jesus does not mention homosexuality at all

jesus didnt mention alot of things

beastiality is condemned in the old testament, and yet jesus doesnt mention it.

shall we then, (using similar logic) assume that jesus was in favor of beastiality because he fails to mention it?

edit=spelling

[edit on 24-10-2004 by Ashlar]

Originally posted by Jazzerman

Originally posted by Ashlar
jazzerman

show me an uninterupted cohesive religion, and i will say you are correct,

but all you have is a couple of ancient statuettes of a female, and from that you claim that wicca existed 7000 years ago.

Here is what I said, and you even quoted it, "Historically speaking there is strong evidence that a Wiccan type of religion was the first to make an appearance on earth." Did you notice the "...Wiccan type of religion..." part? I would never outright claim that Wicca is the oldest religion, but more of an amalgam of the cultural links with old religions.

On the other hand, Pagan religions closely resembling Wicca have been in existance for millenia as I have duely noted previously. In fact, according to Wiccan beliefs one is able to worship almost any way they want and whomever they want. A Wiccan, depending on how they approach the religion, can believe in Greek Polytheism, Egyptian Polytheism, Christian Monotheism, etc. and for all I know could partake in Zoroastrianism.

I am new as a member here, but I have enjoyed this thread so much I thought I would jump right in, if just to make a point of order. Wicca is a relatively "new religion" having been introduced in England in the late 1940's - early 50's. It is in fact a neo-pagan religion and was introduce by Gerald Gardner. Gardner supposedly was taught the religion by a secret coven or tribe the origins of which he never disclosed. The basis of Wicca is a nature based awareness of the earth, the universe and the energy within. Including the practice of ritual magick to interact with and direct the energy around and within us for specific purpose. The Wiccan way also allows the individual to identify with any number of dieties so a Wiccan practioner may be monotheistic, duotheistic or polytheistic. Wicca could be considered a nature based religion, utilizing and adopting aspects of other ancient pagan rites, rituals and beliefs as practiced by the Druids, The Celts and others.

The important point here is that Jazzerman is correct, nature based religion was practiced by people long before the time of Christ. And my dear Ashlar the evidence is more than a couple of ancient statuettes. I wouldn't consider the temple at Stonehenge to be a couple of ancient statuettes. These were built by the druids thousands of years prior to the birth of your Jesus. I really don't want to run off on a diverse tangent here, but many of the "nature based" religious beliefs observed the change of seasons as spiritual times and practiced rites at these times. Winter or Yule was both the death of the planting and harvest but also the time when the Sun which was symbolically dying was also at a rebirth. Spring (easter) was a time of the completion of the Sun's journey through the dark winter, bringing life to the earth. When the Christian doctrine was preached and the bible written and also later revised, least we forget King James. The church used these same seasonal times to celebrate the birth, death and rebirth of Christ. Could it be that to lead people away from thier beliefs, the Christian church created the correaltion to those very beliefs? If so what other doctrine may have been "inserted" into the bible? Maybe a hatred of certain types of people? I don't know just asking.

Sorry for droning on all I really wanted to do was edify a little bit about the difference of todays Wicca and the true old ways such as druidism, Astaura and of course let's not forget the religious beliefs of our fellow humans in the Asia contenent over the last few thousands of years.

peace
zoenhawk

@ defcon5

Originally posted by Misfit
Because she studies it.

Originally posted by defcon5
No offence, but why? Wiccan may be compatible with other religions, I do not know a tremendous amount about it, but Christianity is most certainly not compatible with Wiccan. Do you study it just to try and better out argue someone with a Christian perspective?

She likes knowledge. She studies many things, not just Christianity.
The two, if practiced as meant, may be more compatable than you think. For instance, your Communion and Baptism, it's a ritual; not in the sense of "over and over" but in a sense of pomp.

A factor here may not make sense to you unless you experience it. .................

Buddy, I was raised, and lived as Christian for years after that. The further I progressed and followed the Chrisitian ways as taught the more I found it was simply WRONG! I guess I was one of the lucky ones, I questioned the actions of the church, and was shunned for doing so. Rarely does a Christian utter the word "why". I really don't believe that Jeses meant for you to follow as sheep to the point of walking of the cliff as the one before you.

Originally posted by Misfit
As for linger in Christian threads...............

90% of the threads that I have run into your wife on are about The Anti-Christ, The Beast, and other end of the World Biblical prophecy.

I'll bring this up to her in the morning, I read most of the threads she is in, but she has track of them. She will address your comment.

One more thing as long as we are on the topic can you prove Wiccan to be the one true Religion based on anything besides other Wiccan writers works?
No, then as a group you people need to stop asking us to do this as well.

I will never attempt to "prove" that it is, as I can not, as I do I believe it is !!. It is not of me to attempt to. It is my place to offer knowledge when suck is asked, but we don't go Thursday night witnessing, disturbing peoples family life, stopping people at the mall to try and witness, handing out tracks at traffic lights when people just want to get home, on and on and on with the pestering trying to "save" us by telling us we are going to hell, when in fact you are merely INSULTING the vast majority of people you profess to. "Spread the word" - yes, Jeses of your Bible says that, but, do you really think he meant to do that as in pestering people with the constant preaching Christians are famous for?, or perhaps spread the word by means of your actions?

To reiterate that I do not think Wicca is the "one true religion" as you say - which, again I do not believe it is - I believe each person is of their own religion. That is not to say the way they PRACTICE their religion is right. I believe all religions in essence are right in the manner they were "meant" to be practiced. Think "Babel" - logic dictates that when the people became different from another, so did the ways of their religion.

Misfit

AS far as the New Testament goes, read the first chapter of Romans and the 6th chapter of Corinthians.

Misfit, if you picked up on anything while being �raised Christian�, you�d have picked up on the fact that it is not a science that one studies, but a faith that is nurtured by the Holy Spirit when one accepts the Son. You would know that by not being a person saved, attempting to understand the word of God would be like looking at any other foreign language. Don�t feel bad, even Satan doesn�t see what�s coming up, and the Angels can�t understand the mystery of God�s love for us that He died for us.

Where do you get off on being such an expert on Christianity, we all know that you are not one, yet you linger constantly in biblical threads mud slinging.

As my hubby stated, I study many things. Religions, ancient Egypt, animal psychology. As to which thread I post in...so what!? Since these are usually very long threads, apparently many people must post in them. And last I understood, we we're debating different thoughts, not mud slinging

beastiality is condemned in the old testament, and yet jesus doesnt mention it.

shall we then, (using similar logic) assume that jesus was in favor of beastiality because he fails to mention it?

That's got to be one of the most unintelligent things I have read from you yet! I'll shake my head at that one....and wonder where your mind is to come up with that one

Not true, according to the Bible as a Christian I cannot judge your heart, but I CAN judge your actions.

No you can't...your not your own god and you blasted well aren't mine, well, you "can" but it's not right and you know it....people have to clean up their own self before judging others. In another thread I asked someone harping on other's sin if they looked at other woman, drank, smoked, etc....I got the answer that yes, he did, but his sin wasn't as bad or some such crap....so whne you are sin free, you can start looking at my sins

If this is not true, then why do you care WHAT Christians think of you?

I don't care what anyone thinks of me. Where did that come from? I 'know" I am a good person. I don't drink, smoke, cheat...I don't preach at others about being sinful while sinning.

One more thing as long as we are on the topic can you prove Wiccan to be the one true Religion based on anything besides other Wiccan writers works?

Where did you ever see where anyone claimed that Wicca was the one true and only religion? No Wiccan would ever claim such an absurdity. That's the Christians that claim their religion is the only one

If Christians want to convert people, they should practice what they preach and make the religion look more relevant..."most" Christians run people away from Christianity with a "do as I say not as I do mentality", pointing fingers at others and always telling them they can sin because if you repent you'll be forgiven...which prompted my response earlier...I hear 'that" one a lot from Christians. I am sure that there really are those out their that practice the religion the way it's supposed to be, I have seen a couple of people post here that didn't seem judgmental towards others....but I have never met one. All of them I know have cheated on their SO, or go out and get drunk, or go to strip clubs, or lie, cuss, cheat on taxes, or watch porn, some do all of it....and so on and so on....

Why do so many people dislike the Christian faith...people have told you again and again....I'll direct you to what Byrd said which pretty much sums it up

Originally posted by Byrd

What non-Christians (pagans, other religions, athiests, agnostics) find is that MOST Christians are shockingly unaware of what's in the Bible. They listen to what's preached at them, but don't go beyond that. Most think that the Bible was a single book, and have no idea how it was constructed and have never read some of the OTHER texts that were considered to be canonical. Most are unaware of the changes in translations (most think that the Old Testament is a copy of the Torah, when in fact there are a number of changed verses.)

Most claim to be strict literalists... but don't follow anything in the Old Testament except the 10 commandments (and one therefore has to ask == where did it say Jesus said, "okay. God says enough of that old stuff now here's the new stuff, but you still gotta follow the 10 Commandments.)

Jesus would just end up dead, because governments would be jealous of how cool he is and how everyone wanted to be just like Jesus. Just like the last time.

Originally posted by Ashlar
jesus does not mention homosexuality at all

jesus didnt mention alot of things

beastiality is condemned in the old testament, and yet jesus doesnt mention it.

shall we then, (using similar logic) assume that jesus was in favor of beastiality because he fails to mention it?

I was awaiting this usual response. Once more before I show how absolutely illogical that statement is, here was my preface: I am always confused by Christians who decry homosexuality as an abomination, a sin in God's eyes and use the Bible to make the case, when that only case comes from the Old Testament, the very scriptures that Christians find all sorts of excuses to explain why they do not follow the umpteen other laws laid down by Moses.

You are quite correct that much in the OT was not mentioned by Christ, that hardly makes your claim above supportive of yours or anyone else�s interpretation that he would decry homosexuality since that renders any position you may have relative to the following indefensible.

Deut; 23:17- There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

Firstly, where exactly does it suggest that the �sons of Israel� in this case is anyone other than a member of the Jewish faith? Did you all of a sudden decide that was so and as such this law applies to all non-Jews as well? Secondly, what is with all the whores and brothels that have proliferated throughout the 2000 years? Lastly, why is it that when Christians speak to the sin of homosexuality they invariably always leave out the whore part of that particular law?

Now tell me from the following few examples of the hundreds I can cite, why your argument above holds any water when Jesus spoke not of these things either, yet they are not adhered to today:

Lev. 12:3 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Lev. Chapter 1 through 7 Offerings, offerings and more offerings

And why is that those things he did endorse are not being followed such as:

Deut. 24:14 Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

And my personal favourite:

Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto circumsion; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; and ye on the Sabbath day circumcise a man.

Whereby, the blasphemous Jerusalem Council took it upon themselves to negate that law.

Using your same circular logic back, was jesus in favour of stopping circumcision because he failed to mention same?

firstly, you continue to say that homosexuality is only mentioned in the old testament. you obviously need to re-read your new testament (try Romans 1:26-27)



secondly, you make the point the old testament only forbids homosexuality amongst the sons of israel. and then you say "see he only says the sons of israel, that must mean that its acceptable for gentiles to do it"

do you understand what an abomination is? the bible says its an abomination.

Are you telling this board, that what is disgusting to god among the jews is pleasing to god coming from gentiles? ridiculous



thirldly you make the comparison between homosexuals and whores, and you seem to be under the impression that christianity discriminates against homosexuality and accepts whoredom.

wrong again, third strike your out. you will be escorted out immediately.

christianity in no way accepts prostitution, same as homosexuality

jesus forgave the prositute, because she repented
jesus would forgive the homosexual if he repented (this is good news for you!)

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
AS far as the New Testament goes, read the first chapter of Romans and the 6th chapter of Corinthians.

Romans by Paul. 1&II Corinthians by Paul.

I have yet to receive an explanation why anything written by this man who ingratiated himself into the all knowing position of Christ's teachings; Paul who forged the Roman Catholic Church and its laws; Paul who decided that passover the very last jubilee Christ attended would become a pagan ritual in Christ's name; Paul who decided that God's demand of circumcision and Christ's NOT reversing same, changed it anyway in the name of Christ.

Why are defenders of the Christian faith quite content to invoke the word of God as having been transferred to them by Christ when all they can quote in support of their positions are the contrary laws of a man who never met Jesus, and a man who, if he stood in front of them today and said he saw a light that no one else saw, but it was Christ talking, would not be believed, rather than the supposed son of God himself? Yet because his is such a story planted in a book 1700 years old, which says if you don't believe you will go to hell, they readily refer to every one of his wrtings as though it was Christ's words and he was the Son of God incarnate.

I don't see where Jesus ever needed anyone to speak for him, or anyone to make laws he did not make, or anyone to decide that "upon this rock I will build my church," literally means massive structures filled with riches, where sycophants and pretenders fill their coffers with cash and deify mortal men and women as saints, denounce marriage for its apostles and harbour secret archives and libraries from the masses.

Originally posted by Ashlarfirstly, you continue to say that homosexuality is only mentioned in the old testament. you obviously need to re-read your new testament (try Romans 1:26-27)

I do? These were:

my first words- In response to the original topic, I believe we will find out for the very first time what Jesus's thoughts are on homosexuality, because nowhere does he condemn same.

I specifically stated Christ, not the New Testament, is that not so? Here is my follow-up:

No you don't obviously if you are going to quote Paul to me. Find me a passage please where Christ's words speak out against homosexuality and not Paul

Those once again specifically refer to Christ�s words, do they not?

secondly, you make the point the old testament only forbids homosexuality amongst the sons of israel. and then you say "see he only says the sons of israel, that must mean that its acceptable for gentiles to do it"

Is that what I am doing or am I pointing you to the law the Old Testament delivers as coming from God?

do you understand what an abomination is? the bible says its an abomination.

Yes I most certainly do understand, and there you go doing exactly what I stated, picking and choosing which laws you deem fit for everyone else as it suits your best interests. Do you understand abominations? Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between clean fowls and unclean; and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. Whose word is supreme, God the Father or God the Son?

Are you telling this board, that what is disgusting to god among the Jews is pleasing to god coming from gentiles? ridiculous

In my one word, yes! In the words of God the creator as above; 49 to be exact.

thirldly you make the comparison between homosexuals and whores, and you seem to be under the impression that christianity discriminates against homosexuality and accepts whoredom... christianity in no way accepts prostitution, same as homosexuality

Pardon me my friend, but I make no such comparison, the man Moses did. I merely provided you with the passage. And no, I am not under that impression at all, I am firm in my belief that Christianity as well as Christians, especially those who go out of their way to pronounce homosexuality a sin, conveniently omit the reference to whores in the first part of that law. And I am further convinced in my belief because at no time have I ever seen the United States government trying to outlaw prostitution via a constitutional amendment, nor do I recall even one outcry against same, anywhere mentioned, by anyone who invokes the Lord�s name to proclaim homosexuality a sin.

wrong again, third strike your out. you will be escorted out immediately.

I haven�t struck out yet, but you keep false count if it makes you feel better, that is fine.

jesus forgave the prositute, because she repented
jesus would forgive the homosexual if he repented (this is good news for you!)

How nice of you to notice that. Yet prostitution is rampant still isn�t it? Was his forgiveness for all those in the future as well? Is that to be your excuse? Which leads me back to another of my original statements doesn�t it?

I think I know though what Jesus would say to the man and women who purport to be Christian but do not abide by his word, including the sin, beg forgiveness and sin again multitude. ..

you can read the rest on my original post at your leisure.

Is your last comment in parentheses intended to belittle me or prove to me that when one has no argument they can support, they take the low road, hurl insults, and thereby admit they have no defensible position?

I have given this subject of Christ not mentioning homosexuality some thought and have come up with the following:

Christ did not condone any type of Adultery or fornication, this he does state. Therefore, he would also not condone any sexual activity outside of marriage.

Marriage is a state that only exists in the bible between man and woman, period. Not just because it�s meant to be that way, but also because of what marriage represents.

What marriage represents is the relationship between Christ and his Church, the last thing that he would allow to be made into anything less then what it is meant to be.


Then there is the factor that I have already brought up once, but it went unnoticed, which is that since it was already against Hebrew law, there was no need for him to mention it, unless he disagreed with the law. So in that aspect his silence on the subject is his answer to your question, he upheld the old testiment view on the subject.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever, therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever, shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If nothing else, it is breaking the 6th commandment (or seventh if you believe that the graven image part is really the second).


Now I may be wrong on this part, its only speculation, but I also doubt that he would have come across anyone who was homosexual. I believe that it was Hebrew Law to Stone people to death for anything that was sexually deviant from the normal marriage relationship.

Originally posted by defcon5
I have given this subject of Christ not mentioning homosexuality some thought and have come up with the following:

Christ did not condone any type of Adultery or fornication, this he does state. Therefore, he would also not condone any sexual activity outside of marriage.

Ok..BUT Christians do all of those things...the have sex outside of marriage, and do all other sorts of things your religion tells you not to do...but then when it comes to homosexuality....Oh no!!! it's a sin....then turn around and say your sin is ok...because you'll be forgiven....why do you Christians always pick out homosexuality? Not looking at porn, not cheating on taxes, not lusting after someone other than your spouse, not getting drunk, not lying, not cussing, not any number of other things your not supposed to do...but you stand so firm on homosexuality...what is that all about. I really would like an answer on that!

if one wants to realy know what jesus would do today,one needs to READ AND MEDITATE on his words(most of the time typed in red)and teachings.then after you understand all GOD enlightens you to know,become saved ,then go out in the world and do as he would do today.

I knew this reply was coming�
I already was typing the answer up when you posted.

Yes, it is also a sin for Christians or anyone to commit Adultery or Fornication.

The biggest difference is that when it is a heterosexual situation the problem often takes care of itself because the person eventually marries a member of the opposite sex. In a same sex marriage, which God does not consider a true marriage; they live in fornication their entire lives. Since they choose to continue to live in sin, they do not REPENT their sin and it puts them in a bad situation in Gods eyes.


In addition, the reason why it appears that the Christians are attacking the homosexuals is actually do to the homosexual lobby blatantly attacking the Christians first. Therefore, most of it is just us fighting back.

Personally I do not have anything against them, it is less competition out there for the rest of us guys.

Originally posted by defcon5

In addition, the reason why it appears that the Christians are attacking the homosexuals is actually do to the homosexual lobby blatantly attacking the Christians first. Therefore, most of it is just us fighting back.

Um, is that what Jesus would do? fight back?

Hmm, seems I recall something about a cheek.

Misfit

Originally posted by defcon5
I knew this reply was coming�
I already was typing the answer up when you posted.

Yes, it is also a sin for Christians or anyone to commit Adultery or Fornication.

The biggest difference is that when it is a heterosexual situation the problem often takes care of itself because the person eventually marries a member of the opposite sex.

Nooo....that just doesn't cut it for me. So you eventually marry the same sex...and then continue sinning by lusting, and all the other things I mentioned.......you haven't stopped sinning just because you married the same sex. You have no problems with them...that's great! I still just don't see why Christians don't see their own sinning but stand so rigid on homosexuals turning it into hatred for another living being...it just makes no sense what-so-ever! There is so much on this world to worry about, so much going on....it's like a little mob mentality of hatred....it so sad but many Christians don't see it because they're in the middle of it. I though you we're supposed to love your enemy and pray for them...not hate them

Also stating that someone else started it, and you retaliate, is not what your religion says to do...your supposed to turn the other cheek.....don't hate me, I'm just reminding you what your own bible says.

fight back only when lead by GOD or all shall fail.

Jeez, there goes that wet rope again - twist it as easy as you please, make it any shape you wish depending on what you want it to do.

Misfit

I don�t know the exact time or place that the whole supposed fight started between the two groups. I don�t even really look at it as a fight. Here is what I do know.

Christians will NEVER accept something that is a sin, PERIOD. If they did then they are not Christians. This includes in their own lives as well. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DON�T SIN, all humans� sin. A Christian is supposed to realize when they sin, repent (feel bad about it, try not to do it again), and ask forgiveness for it. If they do it again, then repeat the process, but again try and not make the same mistakes repeatedly. Not all Christians do this, some people think they are Christians and in reality, they are simply hypocrites, they have a big shocker coming when they meet the Big Boss.

To my knowledge this whole thing started when the homosexual lobby started pressing businesses, courts, and so on, to place pressure on the Christians to remove homosexuality�s status as a sin in the Bible. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Anyone that is a Christian WOULD be a hypocrite if they allowed it to happen. They are trying to have pastors arrested, Christian web sites listed as hate sites, ban Christian books, and you name it.

As far as turn the other cheek, the answer is sometimes. There is also something is the Bible called Righteous Anger, I seem to recall a slight story from the new testament in which Christ latterly threw a holy conniption (may be the only true use of this term ) in the temple. When the word of God is under attack, we would not be Christians if we did not defend it.

If they had just kept to their own playing field, none of this would have occurred, it not like these two groups travel in the same circles most of the time. I will use myself as an example, I don�t go and stand in front of gay bars preaching to them, show up at their parades, and so on. I know that if I go to them, I am not going to change their mind, these groups are aware of Christianity, my shoving a sign under their nose is not going to make them stop, scratch their head, and go, �you know what they�re right, I am going to church�. Now if one comes to me and wants to know what the bible says, I am gonna tell them, and the truth at that, pull no punches.

The problem was they wanted marriage, and pastors to marry them, and a sin removed from the Bible and when that was not going to happen they went on the attack.

leeeddie2: fight back only when lead by GOD or all shall fail.

Well, I can see by the nonsense posted above me that all intelligent debate or conversation on this thread is over.......that's the most ridiculous nonsense I have heard on here yet...and we wonder why we have such carnage, killing and blood in the name of the Christian god? There you have it folks! Organized religion at it's best! When I see no more hope within a thread discussion other than such drivel, it's time for me to leave, so I'm outa here.....nothing more to see It has turned into a joke!

Edited to add quote



[edit on 10/25/2004 by LadyV]