Christians, what would your Jesus do, if here today!?

Originally posted by Ashlar
jazzerman

show me an uninterupted cohesive religion, and i will say you are correct,

but all you have is a couple of ancient statuettes of a female, and from that you claim that wicca existed 7000 years ago.

Here is what I said, and you even quoted it, "Historically speaking there is strong evidence that a Wiccan type of religion was the first to make an appearance on earth." Did you notice the "...Wiccan type of religion..." part? I would never outright claim that Wicca is the oldest religion, but more of an amalgam of the cultural links with old religions.

On the other hand, Pagan religions closely resembling Wicca have been in existance for millenia as I have duely noted previously. In fact, according to Wiccan beliefs one is able to worship almost any way they want and whomever they want. A Wiccan, depending on how they approach the religion, can believe in Greek Polytheism, Egyptian Polytheism, Christian Monotheism, etc. and for all I know could partake in Zoroastrianism.

Wicca is a belief steming from primarily northern European Pagan beliefs in a fertility Goddess and a horned God (and before you ask...the "horned God" has nothing to do with the Devil or Satan). As Byrd previously mention the act of Animism is a central them in Pagan religions and can be ascribed to the ancient "Goddess Theory" as well. Aside from the "Wiccan Rede" and the "three fold law" Wiccan's are pretty much free to believe in what they want, including but not limited to all ancient religions.

[edit on 23-10-2004 by Jazzerman]

As a little answer to the original thread question, I think if Jesus were to show up today (aside from the obvious judging and wrath that the Biblical text declares and assuming this was His first appearance on Earth), he would probably be an unassuming teacher of the law and performer of miraculous signs in a backwater third world country. When he first appeared, he appeared in a backwater area of the Roman Empire. The heirarchy in Rome scarcely knew of Him. It wasn't until after His death and the beginning of the Christianity spread throughout the Roman world that the rulers took notice. Apart from the local government, we may all be oblivious to His arrival (internet notwithstanding). He would do exactly as He did in the NT times. He would teach an adherance to the law, while practicing forgiveness. He would teach a righteous judgement, rather than a bigoted judging based on hypocritical self righteousness. Look at how he addressed the lawgivers of the time, he called them a 'generation of vipers' for teaching the law, expecting others to uphold the law, but never taking the purpose of the law, which is to be a measuring rod to show the depth of our unrighteaousness and thus the need to be redeemed by a 'redeemer'. He would give guiding principles relevant to the day. He would again prophesy about 'wars and rumors of wars' and tell us that ' all these things are necessary'. Yes, Jesus, the great peace maker (supposedly) prophesied that war and rumor of war was necessary, especially as the Age drew to a close. He also would probably do a fair amount of indignant housecleaning in the modern Church. Remember the exchange when he overturned the moneychangers tables in the temple? He said 'My Father's house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have turned it into a den of thieves'.

A true Christian isn't perfect, just forgiven, as LadyV has so eloquently expressed her discontent for. The truth is, the statement is meant to mean that although Christians are expected to strive to uphold a Christlike attitude and behavior model, they do slip and fall, they do, as is human nature, sin from time to time. A true follower of Christ does not sin on purpose, or with any malice in their intention, but rather they sin as a natural occurance resulting from the human condition. The wonderful thing about Christianity is that when they do, they can pray to Christ to forgive them, then open the Bible to study His teaching on the matter they are struggling with, and pray for greater understanding in order to avoid committing the sin again.

In all truth, however. A true Christian believes that soon, as the prophecies of end time events continue to unfold, a world leader will appear that will begin to consolidate power. At that time, or rather soon after, Jesus will appear in the eastern sky for a brief period, and snatch all of the true (and by true I mean not all of the) Christians away, and the Earth will enter a seven year period of plague and unprecedented turmoil, war, etc. This leader will make a pact with Israel, and about three and a half years into the seven year period, will break that pact and a nuclear war will take place. At the end of the seven year period, Jesus will return with a great army to wage war against this leader and his army, called the battle of Armageddon. At the end, Jesus will set up his kingdom in Jerusalem (it is not clear whether He will have to rebuil dthe city after the war) and will reign for a thousand years. After such, He will again loose the force of evil for a short time, then destroy the current world by fire. After this, when noone is left alive, He will judge every person that ever lived according to the person's works in life. Those that followed Christ will be annointed to everlasting life, those that did not, will be cast into Hell. What about the ones that never had the chance to choose? They will be judged based on the moral code they set up for themselves. After the final judgement, He will recreate the world in the way it was designed from the beginning, and the ones that were saved will rule as Kings/Queens and priests with christ forever.

But that's the common interpretation, and will be disregarded as superstition by those who do not accept God. The point of writing that was to express how even the 'peace loving tolerant' image nonchristians (and quite a few believers) have of Christ is a myth. Yes he taught to accept differences. Yes he taught to eat with sinners and fellowship with them. But in every case where he was directly confrontational with a sinner (the woman caught in adultery, the prostitute, the woman at the well) his words were, after forgiving them of their sin, 'GO AND SIN NO MORE'. He wasn;t accepting sinful behavior, he was forgiving it and instructing them to not behave that way anymore. Let's not forget that litteltidbit. It is every bit as important as being accepting of any behavior (which he wasn't).

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
In all truth, however. A true Christian believes that soon, as the prophecies of end time events continue to unfold, a world leader will appear that will begin to consolidate power. At that time, or rather soon after, Jesus will appear in the eastern sky for a brief period, and snatch all of the true (and by true I mean not all of the) Christians away, and the Earth will enter a seven year period of plague and unprecedented turmoil, war, etc. This leader will make a pact with Israel, and about three and a half years into the seven year period, will break that pact and a nuclear war will take place. At the end of the seven year period, Jesus will return with a great army to wage war against this leader and his army, called the battle of Armageddon. At the end, Jesus will set up his kingdom in Jerusalem (it is not clear whether He will have to rebuil dthe city after the war) and will reign for a thousand years. After such, He will again loose the force of evil for a short time, then destroy the current world by fire. After this, when noone is left alive, He will judge every person that ever lived according to the person's works in life. Those that followed Christ will be annointed to everlasting life, those that did not, will be cast into Hell. What about the ones that never had the chance to choose? They will be judged based on the moral code they set up for themselves. After the final judgement, He will recreate the world in the way it was designed from the beginning, and the ones that were saved will rule as Kings/Queens and priests with christ forever.

In all fairness, Christians have believed the end times were afoot since the beginning of the religion, and yet time passes by and nothing happens, and they keep saying things like "the end is near...all non-Christians will die...etc.". Much of this can be attributed to the pessimistic view that the Christian church has on "Earthly" life, and what they see as a world that becomes more and more materialistic. Also, some of what is said could be attributed to natural scientific events such as the part, "Jesus will appear in the eastern sky for a brief period, and snatch all of the true...", which could be attributed to an asteroid impact, passing comet, or some other cosmic event. Maybe Revelations/"final judgement" is only a warning for what COULD happen, and not what WILL happen.

[edit on 23-10-2004 by Jazzerman]

For the sake of the millions that choose not to accept biblical teachings, Jazz, I hope your right...

In response to the original topic, I believe we will find out for the very first time what Jesus's thoughts are on homosexuality, because nowhere does he condemn same.

I am always confused by Christians who decry homosexuality as an abomination, a sin in God's eyes and use the Bible to make the case, when that only case comes from the Old Testament, the very scriptures that Christians find all sorts of excuses to explain why they do not follow the umpteen other laws laid down by Moses. It was a pick and choose and invent whatever laws were suitable to the forgers of Christianity at the time of various writings of the 4 gospels.

I think I know though what Jesus would say to the man and women who purport to be Christian but do not abide by his word, including the sin, beg forgiveness and sin again multitude:

"But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for this city."

Nicely (and nonjudgementally) explained, Everlasting! Bravo!

Originally posted by Byrd
What non-Christians (pagans, other religions, athiests, agnostics) find is that MOST Christians are shockingly unaware of what's in the Bible. They listen to what's preached at them, but don't go beyond that.

There is truth in this, many Christians out there have a Childs faith and a lot of zeal. They are perfectly happy to be spoon fed the same thing over and over every Sunday, year after year. Many churches try and save as many as they can by doing this and hoping that it is enough to help the person through. They hope that a person will mature and grow into a adult faith and learn and read more, and become more involved in learning what is in the Bible, but not everyone does, or has the ability to do this. Then there are those, like myself that where raised in this environment and go out in the real world and start to wonder if this is what they believe, or have just been taught, so they start reading and studying it for themselves.

The truth is most likely the same in your religion, You are going to have people that are at different levels of development, and you are going to have people that THINK that a little knowledge makes them an expert in the field. People are people in any religion.

Being saved by the Grace of God is the main point in most Protestant Christian religions, and that is the main point that most churches teach, over and over.

Originally posted by Byrd
Most think that the Bible was a single book, and have no idea how it was constructed and have never read some of the OTHER texts that were considered to be canonical. Most are unaware of the changes in translations (most think that the Old Testament is a copy of the Torah, when in fact there are a number of changed verses.)

Here you are into the advanced course, people that do this have to have a firm grasp on the basics first, and even then there are things in the apocryphal and psudopigraphil books that can still test the faith of a mature Christian. Things that serve to open more and deeper questions then they answer. Not everyone is capable of this, some might never be, not anymore then taking an initiate in your religion and having them perform a advanced or even dangerous ritual. People can get into trouble delving to deep into any religion without the experience, knowledge, or faith, with Christians it is spiritual danger, with you guys maybe it more physical.

Originally posted by Byrd
Most claim to be strict literalists... but don't follow anything in the Old Testament except the 10 commandments (and one therefore has to ask == where did it say Jesus said, "okay. God says enough of that old stuff now here's the new stuff, but you still gotta follow the 10 Commandments.)

Yes, this is something that even I have brought up to my pastor. In my personal opinion it seem to me like some of the Roman/Pagan Religious stuff should be replaced with more of the Hebrew stuff. They have a point in the fact that Christ fulfilled many of the Old Testament traditions and prophecies, and they are now null and void, and that Christ ended some of these things himself, such as not working on the Sabbath Day. The biggest thing that I have a problem with at the moment is having a Sunday Sabbath as opposed to a Saturday one, but some Christian Religions do such as the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Originally posted by Byrd
So, yes, we get the impression that most Christians don't know much about their own religion.

And many don�t. There are most likely a lot of people that dabble in Wicca and in reality don�t have all the knowledge they should. Not all Christians feel the need to throw the advanced stuff out in the open, because if it does anything to harm another Christians faith, then Biblically speaking there are ramifications for that. If you feel that this is what you must do then I would MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT. There are times I pull punches here because I never know who is reading this.

Originally posted by Byrd
On the board here, one of the finest Biblical scholars is Amadeus (I have checked his comments on any number of occasions and have found them to be correct (including the stuff that I said,"oh come on now. That' can't POSSIBLY be right.")

Yes, there seem to be many highly intelligent and knowledgeable people on this site. Some more knowledgeable in some things then in others (As a matter of fact Lady V, I respect what you say a lot of times on this site, I just don�t always agree with your Biblical interpretations on things). Amadeus seems to be quite knowledgeable in a lot of Biblical history, I just get the impression that he goes too much off of some of the more questionable books, like the book of Thomas. There was a lot of propaganda that was written after Christ�s death, and therefore Like I said, it takes a strong faith in Christ to read some of this stuff and not have it hurt a persons beliefs. I get the feeling without knowing anything about him that he is totally of the Gnostic view on faith.

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
A true Christian isn't perfect, just forgiven, as LadyV has so eloquently expressed her discontent for. The truth is, the statement is meant to mean that although Christians are expected to strive to uphold a Christlike attitude and behavior model, they do slip and fall, they do, as is human nature, sin from time to time. A true follower of Christ does not sin on purpose, or with any malice in their intention, but rather they sin as a natural occurance resulting from the human condition. The wonderful thing about Christianity is that when they do, they can pray to Christ to forgive them, then open the Bible to study His teaching on the matter they are struggling with, and pray for greater understanding in order to avoid committing the sin again.

Well Said�

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
In all truth, however. A true Christian believes that soon�

I hate to even bring this up on this thread, I have stated it about a million times on this site. That is not the only viable scenario for the end times, it is Jesuit Futurism. If you are a protestant then the founder of your church most likely believed in Historicism. That is why the End Time have been being prophesied since the death of Christ, because according to this view it began shortly after Christ�s death, as Jezzerman said. Anyway google it up and check it out.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
when that only case comes from the Old Testament,

I do not have a clue where you get this, Paul spoke out about Homosexuality A LOT, and it is in the NEW TESTIMENT. I will give you quotes on it later if you wish, but I have to hit the sack here soon. I am sure that my exhaustion is effecting the quality of my writing anyway.

Originally posted by Ashlar

Originally posted by LadyV
What a cop out! "Christians aren't perfect they're just forgiven"... Oh it's good to be Christian in that way isn't it!? I have no problem with any positive religion as I feel that they are valid if one lives it the way they are interned. But I have a problem the way most Christians use the religion to be hateful and hurtful to others. Most of them look at it just like that, We're not perfect but we're forgiven. Yep...I can sin and do what I want cause I'll be forgiven.. what a load of BS. I can't understand why so many Christians want to use their bible as an excuse to be mean to others. You can ask me what makes me such an expert... Because I read, I study, and I learn. You should try it and it learn your own religion. I think the "not perfect, we're forgiven" remark was the perfect phrase to be brought up in this thread....it most defiantly shows the true mentality here.

you are full of venom, like a pharisee

YOU are full of venom....why can't you understand that catholic religion is just a religion within others....it's totally corrupted, the bible was changed thousand times...you beleive in it because everybody learn the catholic religion....what if you did not learn boudha instead

Amelia

Defcon, Byrd, and Everlastingnoitall...

I just wanted to say a big "Thank you" for trying to return this thread to a reasonable level of sanity. I like your thoughts, because even though we may disagree on certain things (God knows that is probably the truth ), you are all able to discuss things and learn from them. I would give this praise to anyone on this site that can pull this off so well.

[edit on 23-10-2004 by Jazzerman]

The idea that Jesus is coming back soon has been happening for over 2000 years. How soon is that exactly?

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you. There be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste death, till they have seen the kingdom of god come with power

Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of god.

Yes it's said 3 time since Matthew Mark and Luke are the same book translated by 3 different people. AND NO they were not written by Matthew, Mark, Or Luke. Christian really need to read the bible and not believe everything they are told. They need to learn the history of the bible and how it came to be. Google search the Counsel of Nicea and see for your self how the Catholic church decided what books you should be reading in your holy bible. Maybe we should be reading what was tossed out of the bible for a clearer picture of Jesus and what he really was like.

Most christians don't read the bible for themselves. THey don't even know that although Matthew Mark and Luke appear to be the same they contradict each other in huge ways about the rising of christ after the crucifixion. The bible is a book full of contradiction and errors. After all is was written by MAN so don't take it so seriously. But if you must take it seriously know one thing, the bat is not a bird and according to the bible God and Christ are not always so kind and loving.

If he did come he would take a look at this mess and think "Everything that could go wrong, evidently did" What a mess. It was never Jesus intention to establish a new religion. He was a jew who wanted a revival of the jewish ways and tradition. He didn't come to change the old testament law he came to fulfill it. As far as I am concerned the Old Testatment should be just as important and valid as the new. Most christian will claim that Jesus abolished the old laws, untrue, your bible tells you so.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law or prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Hmmmmmmm ................very good question........

He'd probably start by organizing a Riot with his disciples in New York City then set fire to the World Trade Center ("the Temple" of Money "Built with Hands") screaming verses at the top of his lungs (in Aramaic Targum paraphrase---since his Hebrew was a little weak) : like

"Thus saith YHWH of Armies, my Father in Heaven:

"I will have a Just Sheckel ----a Just Baath---- and a Just Ephah!!" and then go and spend other people's money to get all the "Elect of the House of Israel scattered among the Goyim" to come back with him to Jerusalem....

Of course he'd have to separate the Jewish sheep from the wannabe Jewish goats (i.e. he'd have to be able to tell the difference between the modern day Racially Mixed Sephardim from all those Khazarian-Ukrainian Ashkenazim 8th century AD "Jewish" converts...but that should be NO PROBLEMA for a messiah !)

Then he'd probably take a bunch of his "inner circle" disciples and followers up a hill "near the mount of Olives" no doubt, and start reciting Deutero-Zechariah chapters 9 through 12, then tell his disciples to sell their shirts and pants then go out and buy modern day swords with the cash (probably AK47s if he could get ahold of more than TWO this time) and wait and wait and wait for the 12 Legions of Angels to come and make him President of Israel...

and if any rotten Gentile Goy Dog Heathen Christian dares to "apprach him" and want to chat, he'd probably tell the guy,

"Look, Can't you see that I have come to Save the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL ONLY...and anyway since when is it right to take the Bread of the CHILDREN of the Kingdom out of their MOUTHS, and throw it away on the dogs underneath the table?" like he did in Matthew chapter 15. Go read it for your self.

and then he'd probably spout some other anti-gentile sentiments in between telling his followers how gentle they should be with each other (i.e. brothers within the community) but everyone else not part of his group is "dead" anyway, so avoid them at all costs...don't even go into their cities...and whatever you do, don't talk to gentiles or start acting like them...but, in case you see a Jew sick or something, here is a magic spell you can use to cure him, if I'm not around to help you.....!!"

Then he'd start "pronouncing" about what he's going to do once he takes over the Israeli government...

You know, things lilke start handing out various and sundry Messiah Appointed Cabinet Positions

(like he did the first time!!!) "To you who have stuck by me in my Tribulations, each of you shall have in the Day of the Son of Man, a golden Throne of your own to sit on, and a Crown to go with, and you shall drink the Elixir of Eternal Life taken straight from the Garden of Eden, sipping from Golden Goblets, and shall feast on the Flesh of Leviathan and Rahab in that Day----judging the 12 Tribes of Israel..."

and other such mishmash that his modern day ("babes") i.e. ignorant core groupies would eat right up....

Then someone from the Mossad would come along and blow his head off and say he was "leading Israel astray" (false prophecy) and "practicing sorcery" once again...

(that's what would probably happen if this rabble-rousing-Rabbi ever did decide to come back again------- but modern day Fundamentalist Christians (who don't like reading their gospels tooooooo carefully !) might be a little shocked if they had seen with their own eyes what he actually did the first time around---------as Jack Nicholson would have said, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH...)

But then again, that goes for a lot of sane people too....

Originally posted by Amadeus

"Look, Can't you see that I have come to Save the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL ONLY...and anyway since when is it right to take the Bread of the CHILDREN of the Kingdom out of their MOUTHS, and throw it away on the dogs underneath the table?" like he did in Matthew chapter 15. Go read it for your self.

and then he'd probably spout some other anti-gentile sentiments in between telling his followers how gentle they should be with each other (i.e. brothers within the community) but everyone else not part of his group is "dead" anyway, so avoid them at all costs...don't even go into their cities...and whatever you do, don't talk to gentiles or start acting like them...but, in case you see a Jew sick or something, here is a magic spell you can use to cure him, if I'm not around to help you.....!!"

Exactly what I was thinking! You said it very well!

Matthew

10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
10:7
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Originally posted by defcon5
Anyway google it up and check it out.


quote: Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
when that only case comes from the Old Testament,


I do not have a clue where you get this, Paul spoke out about Homosexuality A LOT, and it is in the NEW TESTIMENT. I will give you quotes on it later if you wish, but I have to hit the sack here soon. I am sure that my exhaustion is effecting the quality of my writing anyway.

No you don't obviously if you are going to quote Paul to me. Find me a passage please where Christ's words speak out against homosexuality and not Paul, some self proclaimed high desciple above aall those whom Jesus himself chose who not only was never mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, but who never even met Jesus yet decided to dictate to the masses decades after Christ died, what his teachings were and how they should behave.

Is Paul's philosophy divine and greater than Christ's now?

Hey Favourite Slave:

Just goes to show that Great Minds Think Alike...!

LOL dude, I talked to Jesus yesterday, he's on my soccer team and we chilled after practice over at Anodyne. He's a good guy, knows his punk and emo pretty well.

... oh wait Jesus CHRIST, not Jesus MARTINEZ?...



~Astral

Defcon, I am still awaiting your responses as to where Jesus in his words and not those of Paul, mentions homosexuality. What say ye?

[edit on 10/23/04 by SomewhereinBetween]

You caught me between home, work and typing a post to another thread on getting here, sorry.

Jesus never to my knowledge comments one way or another on the subject of homosexuality, but I could be wrong. Either way, its not what you said, you said all the stuff about homosexuality came from Moses and the Old Testament, and there was nothing about it in the New Testament. I just did not realize that your New Testament Bible only had the first four books in it.

edit added this note:

Although he never commented on it directly, he was a Hebrew, and followed their laws and traditions unless specifically mentioned about him in the Gospels. So, if it were against Gods law in the Old Testament, unless he said otherwise, the same would hold true for the New Testament.


[edit on 10/23/2004 by defcon5]

A bowler maybe?

Jesus says: "What's this "day of rest" ****?"
Jesus says: "You said it, man. Nobody ****s with Jesus."

Originally posted by defcon5
You caught me between home, work and typing a post to another thread on getting here, sorry.

Jesus never to my knowledge comments one way or another on the subject of homosexuality, but I could be wrong. Either way, its not what you said, you said all the stuff about homosexuality came from Moses and the Old Testament, and there was nothing about it in the New Testament. I just did not realize that your New Testament Bible only had the first four books in it.

No need for apology Defcon, priorities first.

Actually Defcon, these were my words: �I am always confused by Christians who decry homosexuality as an abomination, a sin in God's eyes and use the Bible to make the case, when that only case comes from the Old Testament, the very scriptures that Christians find all sorts of excuses to explain why they do not follow the umpteen other laws laid down by Moses.�

I did not say they came from Moses, but from the Old Testament, I reference the Laws of Moses since it is in the books attributed to his talks with God within which the laws are based. I leave open to you all of the 39 books of the first scriptures from which to vet your information.

You are in agreement with me then, in that, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality save for the reference I provided, which supports my statement: �because nowhere does he condemn same.�

And no, your trying to apply ownership to me with the use of �my� as in my New Testament Bible would not be quite the correct possessive, since I have not laid claim of ownership to either those books or the aforementioned 39. (Actually, you would not wish to now what I really believe.) But aside from your statements, do I then conclude that your previous query of:

Defcon- I do not have a clue where you get this, Paul spoke out about Homosexuality A LOT..

in response to my statement of:

I am always confused by Christians who decry homosexuality as an abomination, a sin in God's eyes and use the Bible to make the case, when that only case comes from the Old Testament, to my position..

means that you in fact now agree the act of homosexuality being a sin was addressed in the OT and not by Christ, the ultimate Christian law giver?

The big question remains, who was the diviner and the father of Christianity, Jesus or some nobody who never met him, and claimed to be a really devout �Hebrew� so devout in fact that he regularly tortured the followers of Jesus until he was blinded by some light and spoken to by Jesus when no one else was able to hear and chosen no less, to go unto the masses and preach his epiphany? We would not want a mere farmer already devout in the belief of Christ with no need of an Epiphany trying to convince the masses, would we?

Anyway, where did Christ speak against homosexuality again? I think you forgot to reference that.