Christians, what would your Jesus do, if here today!?

I don't think a man like jesus could exist in our time, like he was then. And maybe he did some great things but I think that only 2% of things about jesus is the truth, maybe he hated gays or poeple with an other skin color than white, but people needed a person where they could point at, and say look he did it in the ways god wants it, and do you know why people *hate* gays because its written in the bible....think about it

Where's that at? *flip flip, scratches his head* Somebody help me out here.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by saint4God]

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth forever.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Wisdom = Fear of the Lord = Hatred of evil/sin

I think Jesus would be shocked and appalled that there is a religion in his name...as he preached against organized religion...

He would likely be astounded that so many completely misunderstood his message, and desire that any house of worship to his name and not his father, be stripped of wealth and instead serve to house the homeless.

Can you imagine Jesus walking into a Church in his name and seeing golden altar implements? Such things are a complete contradiction to his teachings.

If Jesus was around, he'd likely attempt to abolish the organized Church.

That is the second time I have seen someone state that Christ was against organized religion here, where exactly, is that stated?

He would be healing the lame, death and dumb. Causing as much comotion as he did then. Todays christians would be angry at him for turning water into wine though. Back then they didn't have MADD- Mothers Against Drunk Donkeying. Is there no possibility that Jesus was gay?

Originally posted by TgSoe
He would be healing the lame, death and dumb. Causing as much comotion as he did then.

First I think you mean deaf�

Originally posted by TgSoe
Todays christians would be angry at him for turning water into wine though. Back then they didn't have MADD- Mothers Against Drunk Donkeying.

Only the Baptists�

Originally posted by TgSoe
Is there no possibility that Jesus was gay?

None, or it would have been one of the accusations brought against him before Pilot prior to his execution. Death penalty offence and all.

Hi Saint 4 God:

"Hate" is a strong word, but the "historical iesous" who lived and died in palestine in the 1st century was not above racial prejudice against non jews, something we see very closely paralleled in the War Scroll and other Dead Sea Scrolls which were being copied out during his lifetime and ministry---and in a location not far from where he was actually moving and preaching (Qumran is known also as "the Wilderness of Judaea"---sound famliar?)

Simply put, R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean referred to the Goyim ("Gentiles") i.e. non Jews as "dogs" -----and even in the gospel of Phillip found at Nag Hammadi in Coptic, it is said he pronounced the following:

"Amen I say unto you, no Gentile can ever die: since dogs do not possess a Nephesh (soul) they have never even lived in the first place: and if they are not alive, or have ever lived, how then can they die?"

Elsewhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the word "dog" is used several dozen times to refer to "unclean gentiles" who will eventually be wiped out during the "Tiqqun" of the Messiah or the "Day of the Regeneration of the Son of Man...." presumably at the last Judgement...when the sinful goyim nations (who have ever harmed the "nation of Israel" in the past, i.e. Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Syria, Greece and Rome) will burn in everlasting fire while the Purified Elect of the House of Israel will dwell in safety in the Land of Israel for 1000 generations, with all the surviving goyim as vassal slave nations...

Read some of the not-exactly-nice language that Matthew preserved in his so-called Antiochan Greek Gospel:

[And the disciples said to him, Rabbi, send this woman packing, for she is becoming a pest.

And Iesous said to the Syro Phoenecian Gentile: ]

"Lady, I have COME TO SAVE ONLY THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL...and anyway, SINCE WHEN IS IT RIGHT TO TAKE THE BREAD OF THE CHILDREN OF THE ELECT OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS AND THROW IT AWAY ON THE DOGS UNDERNEATH THE TABLE?" (read Matthew chapter 15 in all the variant Greek texts)

Thus it seems that R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean clearly avoided Gentiles like the Plague.

The only "goyim" he dared to even speak to were the socalled (half-Jewish) God-Fearers who attended Synagogue Services as curiosity seekers (they were uncircumcised Syrians and other mercenary soliders that used to listen in to parts of the synagogue services, and were kind of gentile-half jews: some even contributed funds for the building of Synagogues and Yeshivas according to Luke etc.)

But even the god-fearers were roped off away from circumcised Jews in the synagogues (cf: in the temple, the Court of the Goyim or the Court of the Gentiles where there was a sign: NO GENTILE SHALL PASS BEYOND THIS POINT UPON PAIN OF DEATH)...we still have copies of these racist Temple plaques today)

When "Iesous" felt it was time to send out the 12 (or the 70) "apostoloi" (lit. "sent ones") on their missionary journey to "announce the coming Kingdom of David" and by the way, deliberately fulfill what they considered to be a "Messianic prophecy" :

"How beautiful are the feet of them who preach the Gospel of Peace.. and say to the poor, O Zion, your clan-god will reign!" (he made them go without sandals and purses), he SPECIFICALLY order them NOT to GO INTO ANY TOWNS OR VILLAGES OF THE GOYIM (i.e. gentiles, i.e. non Jews) BUT ONLY PREACH TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL...

One of the roles of the Messiah (once he made his tardy appearance) was to INGATHER all the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel that had been scattered among the goyim (gentiles) in various cities outside of Palestine due to invasion and deportation/forced march-exile (i.e. in the "Diaspora") which is what he meant when he used the phrase "I have SHEEP that are NOT OF THIS FOLD: I must preach to them also...")

This "Iesous" had no mission to the Goyim proper, only the Israelites of the Diaspora scattered among the Goyim for 600 years before he was born...

He also used phrases like, "if a brother does not repent (i.e. within the Yahad or community of the elect ones), then LET HIM BE LIKE THE PUBLICAN OR THE GOY (gentile) TO YOU..." i.e. avoid and SHUN him, have nothing to do with him at all..."

It was not hate in the purest sense of the word: it was just typical palestinian Judaic 1st century racial prejudice (chosen people and all of that vomit) which R. Yehoshua is reflecting as a child of his times.

To make him a "gentile lover" like some of the other gospels do is to paint the man in colours he never wore in real life, so people are just going to have to get over the fact that "Jesus" was a 1st century Palestinian Jew whose main concern was the overthrow of the Romans (the Kittim, the Goyim, the Gentiles, the Dogs etc.) who were occupying "his" country (his daviddic blood made him even more racially prejudiced since his family was in exile because of the goyim for 600 years).

Consider to what audience the Greek Gospels were written to sell to: then you can see why the race-prejudice of this Palestinian Rebbe was toned down (like his vehement war-rhetoric) after Israel was destroyed in AD 70.

Does this make any sense to you now?











[edit on 28-10-2004 by Amadeus]

He would wonder why he was lied to all this time. Like most Christians.
He would know he wasnt the son of god, but of a whore who lied.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by SpittinCobra]

You use many big words, simplify for us common people...

I would like to know where you are getting your quotes from, book, chapter, verse?

Don�t worry about them being from a Non-Biblical source, I have read much that is Non-Biblical; however, to put the same constraints on you as have been put on me (to not use paul), you cannot use Thomas.



Edit:
I would like to read them for myself.....

[edit on 10/28/2004 by defcon5]

[edit on 10/28/2004 by defcon5]

That is the second time I have seen someone state that Christ was against organized religion here, where exactly, is that stated?

It's really more of an idea...based on his teachings in general. I should have clarified that he preached against THE organized religion of his day... There are several verses of scripture that show he was attempting to build a church of his own, but he also stated that if even three people were together and called on him, he'd be present. Personally, I think he would be upset more at what his Church has become...much as he rebelled against the organized religion of his time and for many of the same reasons. Remember, it was the religious leaders, not Pilot, who really wanted Jesus gone....

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Gazrok]

I guess that you, unlike the rest of the world for the last 2000 years, can read Christ�s mind?

The only thing that he rebelled against that I can find is the hypocrites in the Jewish religion.


Edit:SP

[edit on 10/28/2004 by defcon5]

I will just say this again.

WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT WAS RECORDED BY THE MAN HIMSELF!!! NOTHING!

All we read is some other guys interpertation he wants us to hear, it has nothing to do with the man JC.

I would like to have heard the words "i am a god, son of god" striaght form JC mouth, even if he would have written it down i would be more inclined to believe it. But as it stands JC gave us zilch in terms of first hand accounts and teachings, so err.. go figure!

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
He would wonder why he was lied to all this time. Like most Christians.

How would you know? Do you know most Christians, ministers, pastors, etc.? If yes, then you must be omniscient. Are you then claiming you are God?

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
He would know he wasnt the son of god, but of a whore who lied.
[edit on 28-10-2004 by SpittinCobra]

What are you basing your premise of lies and whoredom? Sounds to me you're the liar. Liar, liar, pants on fire . I can play this game too. Are we done with the name calling now?

[edit on 28-10-2004 by saint4God]

[edit on 28-10-2004 by saint4God]

Where are the passages about Jesus' hate IN the Bible?

Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
JESUS replied, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it, "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments".

Hate & predjudice are the exact opposite of these words. Sorry if the popular fiction written within the last fifty years doesn't support it.


[edit on 28-10-2004 by saint4God]

Hail to LadyV and my Wiccan friends!

Jesus came to save the People of the House of Israel.Being of European descent,I thankfully do not fall under this category.

Jesus is a middle eastern diety, let them have him.

Hey Saint4God:

You're going to have to understand something about Palestinian Jews of the 1st century, of which (newsflash) R. Yeshoshua bar Yosef was one by the way: they had an US v. THEM mentality (after all they were brutally conquored at least 8 times by goyim nations like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) and most of the common masses (i.e. outside of the Sadducean ruiling priesthood, of which Herod was one) had AN INTENSE HATRED AND AVOIDANCE OF GENTILES.

Read the Dead Sea Scrolls in English even for a taste of their absolute hatred of "those idol worshipping dogs", i.e. the gentile non Jewish population in the world.

Throughout these texts you can hear again and again a clear US v. THEM mentality (you were either a Jew or a GENTILE, i.e. a NON JEW). And the NON JEW was considered by these people TO BE THE OPPRESSORS of a chosen people: the Palestinian Jews were a group who were utterly DISGUSTED by the GOYIM-----get that through your head.

Try to understand the BACKGROUND to the stories of "Iesous".

Read the Torah (e.g. Deuteronomy) carefully and many times---so that you can gather a clear taste of the utterly racist language that even R. Yeshoshua subscribed to---"amen I say unto you not a jot not a tittle of the Torah must ever go un-performed" as it says in Matthew...or

"The Sofrim sit in the seat of MOSES: listen carefully to the words and teaching therefore of the Pharasim and the Sofrim (Scribes, i.e. the heads of the Synagogues) and do everything they tell you to do --only do not ACT like they do, for they say mitzvot , but do not perform mitzvot (i.e. "commandments" or "good deeds" etc.

Now then, having said that....R. Yehoshua DID in fact "preach a gospel of love and forgiveness" to those WITHIN HIS OWN CIRCLE i.e. his own Apocalyptic Messiah-waiting Jewish community of followers--like John the Baptist did before him (R. Yohanon bar Zechariah the Baptist).

He is reputed to have said things like "You will love your NEIGHBOUR as yourself: you will protect him as the Pupil of your Eyes..." etc. the term "neighbour" meaning : a fellow Messianic follower "of the WAY" within his own circle of circumcised and baptised followers.

US v. THEM.

(see Isaiah 40:1-6: prepare ye the WAY of YHWH in the desert, a highway for our clan-god" etc. ):

Iesous did NOT mean by "neighbour" all those rotten stinking gentile goy Occupying "dogs on the outside" who were "dead anyway"--he meant his own "chosen" people, i.e. Jews only.

Paul was the one who opened up this little cult of the Messiah to a wider audience---a man who called himself an Apostle to the goyim, yet never met the man "Iesous" except in dreams and visions....and twisted the original narrow anti Gentile message of the original Nazorean Gospel to apply to a wider gentile (non Jewish) audience to "grow the business" as we say today--especially critical after Israel (and Palestinian Christians) were killed off during the Jewish Revolt Against Rome (AD 66-70)

But that was NOT the message of Iesous when he lived and breathed. When he said "love thy neighbour" he meant it in the narrow not the broader sense. And if he healed "the centurion's lover" etc. he was working with "god fearers" not pure pagan idol worshipping goyim-gentiles.

You are going to have to read the texts of the gospels a little more carefully since you are missing some crucial points here.

Shimeon bar Jonah, ha Kephah (Gk. Ho Petros, or "peter") was said to have asked Iesous once (according to the gospel tradition)

Rabbi, how often must I forgive my BROTHER (i.e. in the community)?

Whereupon R. Yehoshua is reputed to have said: "What do the Sofrim say?" and "Peter" said "up to 7 times" to which R. Yeshoshua is reputed to have said,

"Simon, you have spoken well, for thus the sofrim teach: but Amen I say unto you, if you wish to enter the Kingdom, you must not forgive your brother only 7 times you must forgive him seventy times seven times..."

But he was not applying all this love and forgiveness to the gentile dogs outside of Palestine: he was applying this teaching to the elect of the Kingdom (i.e. his own community of faithful followers who were all Torah abiding Jews of the 1st century).

Notice the US v. THEM language here:

"To YOU is GIVEN THE KEY TO THE MYSTERY OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN...BUT TO ALL THOSE OUTSIDE, EVERYTHING APPEARS IN RIDDLES..."

This gives you an idea of his US v. THEM mindset.

He treated those WITHIN HIS OWN COMMUNITY WITH GREAT LOVE AND AFFECTION, but everyone outside (i.e. the uncircumcised goyim or anyone who was not "looking for the Kingdom of God to appear any moment" were considered OUTSIDERS, to BE SHUNNED like the Publican or the Gentile.)

When he said "who is my Neighbour?" in Luke then has "Iesous" tell the parable of the "good Samaritan"----but he was still referring to SAMARATIM JEWS (who had broken off with their own version of the Torah AS JEWS around 430 BC) and not goyim whom he thought were "dead" (cf: "let the dead bury the dead" i.e. all outsiders were "not worthy of the life").

It was part of Iesous' cultural heritage that the expected and long hoped for Messiah of the Jews would RE-CONSTITUTE ISRAEL as it was "during the time of David" which would include the Samaratim, whom Iesous did not consider Goyim

(which by the way was very small according to the archaeological evidence being currently studied by Israel-Finklestein etal. of Tel Aviv University as he outlined in his popular book THE BIBLE UNEARTHED, in other words, the extent of David's tiny Kingdom was grossly exaggerated in post exilic Biblical Texts, like the proverbial Fisherman's Story...gets larger and larger over re-telling until you are no longer dealing with the facts of history but wishful thinking midrash and "pious" legend).

R. Yehoshua would certainly have had more "cultural links" with Samaratim (Samaritans) than Judaean southerners did---since after all he hailed from the northern part of the country away from Judaea and spoke with a similar accent (cf: John's discourse with the so-called Woman at the Well)--

Notice even the speech in John's gospel placed into the mouth of Saddducean Levites in Jersualem:

"NOW WE KNOW THAT THOU ART A SAMMARITAN and are possessed" etc.

Even the sending out of his apostoloi were aimed at the ELECT OF THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL SCATTERED AMONG THE GENTILES as opposed to "the gentiles" themselves.

The fact that you cannot see this is testiomony to the clever snow job of the Pauline churches, who had no historical connexion to "iesous" but twisted the message any way they could in order to make the message sound good to cash paying Gentiles in the larger Greek Speaking Empire--a world UTTERLY foreign to "iesous" whose mission was to rescue the JEWS and usher in the TIQQUN ("the Regeneration of the Day of the Son of Man") at the Last Days.

The Question of this thread is WHAT WOULD YOUR JESUS DO....

If you were to get into a Time Machine and go back in time to the year AD 34 say for example, and hear this Galilean Pretender spouting his "gospel" you'd hear a man with a message which was far from universal--("THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES IS FULFILLED" etc.) and one with moreover, some startling undercurrents of vengeance and race-prejudice which would NOT be tolerated among modern 21st century audiences....who are encouraged to respect cultural differences---i.e. political correctness.

But the "world" was not as "small" back in those days as it is today-- and 1st century Galilean Rebbes certainly would have had very limited experiences in the wider world which we know today--especially when their whole experience of the world was that which was bounded by the distance one could travel on foot.

Your insight into the people of that day is very commendable, however...

Originally posted by Amadeus
Now then, having said that....R. Yehoshua DID in fact "preach a gospel of love and forgiveness" to those WITHIN HIS OWN CIRCLE i.e. his own Apocalyptic Messiah-waiting Jewish community of followers--like John the Baptist did before him (R. Yohanon bar Zechariah the Baptist).

I don't see the 'Within his own circle' caveat. With as literal to the law as the people of that time were, I think this would've been important to include.

Originally posted by Amadeus
He is reputed to have said things like "You will love your NEIGHBOUR as yourself: you will protect him as the Pupil of your Eyes..." etc. the term "neighbour" meaning : a fellow Messianic follower "of the WAY" within his own circle of circumcised and baptised followers.

I think the word 'neighbor' is causing us a hang up in understanding. Neighbor in the first definition by Merriam Webster means:

Main Entry: 1neigh�bor
1 : one living or located near another

My next door neighbor is not a follower of "the Way". Does this mean if you don't live near me I am Bibically not required to love you? What about Matthew 5:23 where I am to love even my enemy? Is hate, discrimination and slander loving my enemy?

Originally posted by Amadeus
Iesous did NOT mean by "neighbour" all those rotten stinking gentile goy Occupying "dogs on the outside" who were "dead anyway"--he meant his own "chosen" people, i.e. Jews only.

But that was NOT the message of Iesous when he lived and breathed. When he said "love thy neighbour" he meant it in the narrow not the broader sense. And if he healed "the centurion's lover" etc. he was working with "god fearers" not pure pagan idol worshipping goyim-gentiles.

Shimeon bar Jonah, ha Kephah (Gk. Ho Petros, or "peter") was said to have asked Iesous once (according to the gospel tradition)

Rabbi, how often must I forgive my BROTHER (i.e. in the community)?

Whereupon R. Yehoshua is reputed to have said: "What do the Sofrim say?" and "Peter" said "up to 7 times" to which R. Yeshoshua is reputed to have said,

"Simon, you have spoken well, for thus the sofrim teach: but Amen I say unto you, if you wish to enter the Kingdom, you must not forgive your brother only 7 times you must forgive him seventy times seven times..."

But he was not applying all this love and forgiveness to the gentile dogs outside of Palestine: he was applying this teaching to the elect of the Kingdom (i.e. his own community of faithful followers who were all Torah abiding Jews of the 1st century).

Who then came to Jesus and was turned away?

Originally posted by Amadeus
"To YOU is GIVEN THE KEY TO THE MYSTERY OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN...BUT TO ALL THOSE OUTSIDE, EVERYTHING APPEARS IN RIDDLES..."

Outside of following "the Way", yes. Not outside of Jews. Or do you mean outside of a house in the open air? There are some fundamental definitions that I think should be addressed.

Originally posted by Amadeus
He treated those WITHIN HIS OWN COMMUNITY WITH GREAT LOVE AND AFFECTION, but everyone outside (i.e. the uncircumcised goyim or anyone who was not "looking for the Kingdom of God to appear any moment" were considered OUTSIDERS, to BE SHUNNED like the Publican or the Gentile.)

Again, I don't know what dictionary you're getting these definitions from.

Originally posted by Amadeus
When he said "who is my Neighbour?" in Luke then has "Iesous" tell the parable of the "good Samaritan"----but he was still referring to SAMARATIM JEWS (who had broken off with their own version of the Torah AS JEWS around 430 BC) and not goyim whom he thought were "dead" (cf: "let the dead bury the dead" i.e. all outsiders were "not worthy of the life").

'Outside' definition.

Originally posted by Amadeus
It was part of Iesous' cultural heritage that the expected and long hoped for Messiah of the Jews would RE-CONSTITUTE ISRAEL as it was "during the time of David" which would include the Samaratim, whom Iesous did not consider Goyim

(which by the way was very small according to the archaeological evidence being currently studied by Israel-Finklestein etal. of Tel Aviv University as he outlined in his popular book THE BIBLE UNEARTHED, in other words, the extent of David's tiny Kingdom was grossly exaggerated in post exilic Biblical Texts, like the proverbial Fisherman's Story...gets larger and larger over re-telling until you are no longer dealing with the facts of history but wishful thinking midrash and "pious" legend).

R. Yehoshua would certainly have had more "cultural links" with Samaratim (Samaritans) than Judaean southerners did---since after all he hailed from the northern part of the country away from Judaea and spoke with a similar accent (cf: John's discourse with the so-called Woman at the Well)--

Notice even the speech in John's gospel placed into the mouth of Saddducean Levites in Jersualem:

"NOW WE KNOW THAT THOU ART A SAMMARITAN and are possessed" etc. ")

I think here he's acknowledging the cultural differences and division so that his apostles may understand they're not to stick to their own click.

Originally posted by Amadeus
Even the sending out of his apostoloi were aimed at the ELECT OF THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL SCATTERED AMONG THE GENTILES as opposed to "the gentiles" themselves.

Where is this again? I'm reading:

Matthew 28:18 which says: Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

I ain't gonna read thru all the previous posts, so this may have already been mentioned. If Jesus were alive today, I'd have to assume that "Christianity" hasn't become an official religion and people were still living by the Old Testemant commandments. With that said, I would imaging that his time in this day and age would not be much different from his time 2000 ys ago.

Jesus spent much of his time with "sinners". Prositutes, drunks, peasants...basic run of the mill vagabonds. People that scociety looked down upon as being immoral. So....I think he'd do the same now. We have different kinds of outcasts of now course, but that's where you'd find him. I would also imagine that the hardcore religious nuts (similiar to today's faaar right wing christians) would have the hardest time accepting Jesus as their Messiah. Similiar to the pharisees and saducees (sp) from 2000 yrs ago. Those people were supposed to be the standard for all that is right, but Jesus knew that their hearts were not in the right place.

So, to sum up...Jesus would be living and communing among all that scociety has downcasts, just like he did before, and the religious nuts would find a way to destroy him.

Hey Saint4God (and the others on this thread are just going to have to catch up) !!

I refer you back to the very Jewish idea of US verses THEM.

Think about these things when you think about the EARLIEST Jewish Torah abiding Nazorean Christian churches founded by Iesous and his brother �James� �--the ones that were WIPED OUT by the Jewish War in AD 70 only to be replaced by Gentile Loving anti Nazorean Pauline churches founded by a man who never once met Iesous except in dreams and visions.

Which means--- the earliest Christian Nazorean churches did not get a chance to circulate their own gospels and the ones that suvived the Jewish war after AD 70 did not get very far before hitting the town square�s burning Pyres of the post Nicene era.

Again, I repeat:

The term BROTHER is understood by Iesous in the Nazorean church was NOT a term he applied to GENTILES but only to THOSE WITHIN HIS OWN BROTHERHOOD :

Read: Mt 5:47, "And if you salute only your brothers, what mitzvah have you performed? Do not even the Gentiles do the same thing with their brothers?"

Notice: YOUR BROTHER verses the GENTILES�.

When Iesous addressed his disciples and followers it WAS AN INNER CIRCLE of those who he taught would live forever---whereas everyone outside was as good as dead (�Let the Dead Bury their Dead, but you, come follow me��)


You asked WHO WAS TURNED AWAY during the Syrophonecian Crumb Incident? Answer: A GENTILE WOMAN because she was�well, a gentile woman�considered the lowest of the low to a male Jew who walked around thinking he was one of the Chosen People�..

Only later in the story when she turned out to be a talking dog with a brain did he reluctantly deign to �heal her daughter�.

Of course this is just a story. But this kind of race-prejudice would hardly have been MADE UP FROM SCRATCH.

But don't forget: where there is SMOKE there is fire�

and the gospel writers (Luke, John, Mark) were VERY busy trying to push Iesous in the OTHER direction: i.e. to make him more ACCEPTABLE TO GENTILES and deliberately removed some of his more racist comments from their texts.

Matthew�s Antioch Gospel clearly retained some of the pro-Jewish early traditional elements that were later thrown away by the Pauline churches (the Pauline churches would have hated Matthew�s gospel at times!)

We are told that �Jesus� disciples� told that poor �gentile woman� to go away, then he himself buts right in and declares to her face that he was ONLY sent to the �lost sheep of the house of Israel�, and not to any crawling Gentile �dogs�, who have to eat the childrens crumbs under the tables---

Here he was speaking to a Canaanite-Syro-Phoenician (gentile or GOY) women who had come �over the border� from Lebanon in Matt 15:

In Jesus' day, "dogs" were a typical racial slur toward Gentiles. And not animals like our well- loved, well-tended pets, but repulsive, diseased, garbage-eating mongrels. It was a prejudice so deep; it didn't have to be taught.

Jewish children like Iesous and his disciples once were would pick this kind of anti Gentile nuance up from the way their society was structured and the way their parents behaved and talked about them.

You can bet, they heard jokes about how stupid Gentiles were, with harsh comments about their appearance or foreskins or eating behavior and clothing

(cotton and linen together---my god! And with that purse!) ,

and clear teachings about YHWHs rejection of them. Jesus was raised in a society that called Gentiles 'dogs.' And he never rose about such prejudice and US v. THEM mentality.

But look where it got him in the end.

Thinking of �Jesus� in this way is very disturbing to Christains : they don't like to think about their �divine� Lord using such utterly offensive language, especially obvious racial or ethnic slurs. And his denial of assistance to the woman is troublesome as well.

But you cannot turn a blind eye to the evidence staring you in the face.

Here are some other places we read about US verses THEM mentality:

Consider the Phrase �Let the Dead Bury their Dead�: What does THAT tell you about those OUTSIDE?

Then what about: �If he repent not, then let him be as the Publican or the Gentile to you� i.e. as an outsider.

Also we read in Matt 10:5 �And Iesous said to his disciples: Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

His support of Torah and therefore of its inherent racism (e.g. Deut Chapter 13 and Deut 20 or

See Deut 23:3 "No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of YAHWEH; even to the tenth generation none belonging to them shall enter the assembly of YAHWEH for ever ... You shall not seek their peace or their prosperity all your days..�

Or see Deuteronomy 7:2 You must genocide them all; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them, but you shall exterminate them. You shall not make marriages with them either��

This is the type of Text that R. Yehoshua said had to be obeyed TO THE JOT AND TO THE TITTLE:

Matt 5:17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the Torah and the Prophets;

I have come not to abolish them but to [add to] them.

Examples abound of racism and bigotry (reflected in the words placed into the mouth of Iesous in the gospels and would hardly have been invented) which represent one school of Jewish tradition (and only one school) and is characteristic of both the Holy War ideology of the Torah and the Holy War school of the prophets.

For Amen I say to you, it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than to omit one jot or tittle from the Torah that it might not be accomplished.

Whoever relaxes the least of the Torah commandments or teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches men to do them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I do have a question: Why on earth did you dare to quote the spurious addition-ending to the Gospel of Matthew (Matt 28:18 and Matt 28:19) which has long been known to be a later Trinitarian forgery (verses 18 and 19 are textually corrupt in the earliest MSS or missing altogether----sometimes by having that page of Matthew actually torn out to hide from Orthodox bishops!).

The �historical� Yeshua (�jesus�) knew of no Father Son and Holy Spirit Trinitarian Doctrine. Even �Paul� didn�t.

Such a believe came to be regarded as creedal sometime in the middle of the 3nd Century AD and was not decided �officially� as doctrine until a 4th century Council in the presence of Athanasius---long after the text of �Matthew� was written and circulated.

If you want a quote a passage from the Greek text of �Matthew� try quoting a more text that has been a litte less obviously �faked� by post Nicene scribes in the 4th century who had a nasty habit of changing the text to conform to later orthodoxy. Vaticanus has more than 2,000 words deliberately changed or altered in the text "to conform to post Nicene orthodoxy" i.e. after AD 325.

Unfortunately both Vaticanus MS and the Sinaiticus MS (our two most complete MSS for Matthew) both date to after AD 350�.long after Nicaea.