A quick question for communists before bed...

reply to post by mee30


Chinese are very dangerous when it comes to imposing communist will. When a truly communist group of Chinese get together especially former Chinese military to meet a "Group Goal", they are dangerous. When former chinese military disband they go lawless. Over use their bad tack ticks to subdue hundreds if not thousands of people at a time. You have the former Chinese Military abandoning their country in the thousands becoming lawless land thieving miners in Africa and south America,. Standing armies literally taking out whole operations and bodies just disappear. Imposing their will by using communist enthused methods of subduing large numbers of people. They lead by example instead of trying to reform. When one tries to reform like the American government you get outlaws. When you just nip it in the bud and round up a firing squad for public view you make examples out of your outlaws, morals are instilled on a deeper level.

I just wrote a short book about my beliefs of communism called, "Communist America: An America where communist prevailed in the sixties and life today.

Very interesting, corruption would have never happened, no American company would have exported production during the first fifty years. Jobs are evenly distributed. Community becomes community again. Honor and respect are restored as well as a sense of self. That one kid stuff really helped them out too. Breeding tradition and culture.

The economic collapse would have never happened. How many of the corrupt politicians would be put to death? Many many many. We would not be hated because of our ego. Getting better rates like everyone else. I mean come on I went to mexico 15 years ago and I got 20 bags of chips for the price of like 6. The more you flaunt your richness the more you get taken advantage of. Communists know that and know not too.

Canada has socialized medicine without being communist. Saying that liberals that agree with some federal regulating are communists is the same extreme divisive rhetoric as saying all conservatives are inbred fascist skinheads.

reply to post by mee30


There is really no point in trying to continue this discussion. While a few people have tried to give you information that addresses your OP, I guess you have not liked the answers and have changed the context of the question a few times throughout this thread.

Clearly, you are anti-Communism. That's fine and well within your right. All I would ask is that if you are going to be anti-Communism....at least know what Communism is and how it works. Otherwise you just look like a scared idiot that hates commies because of what they heard on the TV.

reply to post by mee30


I'm only one page one of your thread, but did a quick search and found this:
Directory of Communes

The term 'commune' is often used, espeecially in the press, to mean all types of intentional communities or cooperative living. We use commune only when referring to communities that share their income and resources completely, or nearly so. These communal groups below range from small to large, urban to rural, and christian monastery to secular anarchist collective. They are found throughout the United States and around the world. Most do not resemble the sterotypical 'hippie commune' but a few hippie communes from the sixties are still around.

You might find some answers on the websites listed.

Originally posted by Unrealised
Sorry, but you have no idea how real, structured communism works.



Real communism doesn't have any need for money.


The work is done either because it needs to be done, or because one has a passion for it.

You won't find any true communist business in this capitalist filth-pit of a society.



It would be like trying to sell gold to a man who only loves dirt.



The love for a certain career is at the heart of true communism.
No longer would a person become a doctor because their parents pushed them into it, or because it pays well.

No, it would only attract people who have a true passion for it, and this would weed out the weak-skilled.



I won't go on about this, because ATS is famous for bashing communists.
It's happened to me before.




Just enjoy your propaganda, left over from the cold-war.

I have no energy for trying to convert the capitalist Borg.


Capitalism is a world-wide disease, and it's killing the innate human love for life.

I just got all mooshy reading that

Very well put and the amount of stars you've received so far is very encouraging. There might be hope for us after all.

True Marxist Communism eliminates the need for money and all of the horrors that comes with it...

In the right hands that is

reply to post by mee30


well at least gold is a usable resource and has a finite amount in the world(as far as we know) were as paper money can be counterfitted and printed as long as we have trees.

There are numerous employee owned, democratically controlled companies in the USA. Some of these were featured in Michael Moore's Capitalism: A Love Story.

reply to post by bl4ke360


Wanna list all the people that died from the result of capitalism?

There's no way to count the billions

Originally posted by Unrealised

I have no energy for trying to convert the capitalist Borg.


Capitalism is a world-wide disease, and it's killing the innate human love for life.

But one of my innate human loves is competition. I think that resides in everybody.

If I'm Borg...so be it. Message sending now.

Originally posted by Unrealised
Just enjoy your propaganda, left over from the cold-war.

I have no energy for trying to convert the capitalist Borg.


Capitalism is a world-wide disease, and it's killing the innate human love for life.

It's unfortunate there is communist bashing here. However lets be realistic. Man in inherently flawed. Mix a flawed man with power and there is a very high chance of extreme corruption. Communism works as an idea, it may even work on a very small scale where leaders can be held accountable.

For large countries it just won't work. No political/economic system can stay pure when humans are running them. Capitalism doesn't work as intended either though, the power and human condition corrupts it. However I'd rather live with a corrupt democracy than a corrupt communist system.

reply to post by ringlejames


I cannot help after reading your post that you believe that power comes from the barrel of a gun.

That only works for a short time.

Or did I interpret incorrectly?

To directly address OPs topic, collectively owned and managed workplaces and business are actually quite common and often very successful. They are a great example of how participatory democracy can be used to run a business in a efficient, equitable and fair way. If you want to understand what 'real' communism could look like, and not just the 'Actually Existing' communism of the soviet union, north korea, etc., read up on these worker cooperatives and imagine applying the management style to all aspects of society. Pure 'ideal type' socialism is really just participatory democracy applied to all aspects of society (law, economy, politics, education, etc.)


Worker Cooperatives

Also,

Participatory Democracy

This ain't your daddy's Cold War conception of socialism/communism. Don't let other people tell you what Marxism/communism/socialism is. Look into yourself.

I highly recommend watching this documentary. If nothing else, it will deepen and broaden your conception of what democracy really means and what its potentials are. This clip just focuses on Worker Cooperatives that are run democratically. Enjoy

reply to post by dustyceilingfan

This ain't your daddy's Cold War conception of socialism/communism.

Erm, dustyceilingfan.......


WELCOME to ATS!!!!

I couldn't agree with you more if you paid me (lol).......! I consider your contribution and membership to be a birthday gift (yeah, today's it) from the universe; you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right!

Originally posted by Drezden
It's unfortunate there is communist bashing here. However lets be realistic. Man in inherently flawed. Mix a flawed man with power and there is a very high chance of extreme corruption. Communism works as an idea, it may even work on a very small scale where leaders can be held accountable.

For large countries it just won't work. No political/economic system can stay pure when humans are running them. Capitalism doesn't work as intended either though, the power and human condition corrupts it. However I'd rather live with a corrupt democracy than a corrupt communist system.

That same argument relates more to capitalism than communism.

Capitalism is the system that perpetuates bad human traits by allowing a small minority of people to become far more wealthy than the majority, giving them the economic power to manipulate and control other people and the state, the government, the economy itself.

Communism IS democracy, real democracy. Not the false illusion of democracy we have now.

Money used as a form of control, artificial scarcity of resources, is what causes corruption, not worker ownership. If the whole country had a worker owned economy, the majority of corruption would disappear because there would be nothing to really corrupt. When we are free to produce what we need with no restrictions there would be nothing to gain by corrupting the system.

We do not live in a democracy, we live under an economic dictatorship. A global economic dictatorship. It only gives the illusion of liberty.

Communism/socialism is economic freedom. The state is not the real enemy it is the economic system we have now. Change the economic system and the state will change. The state we have is the result of the economic system we have, a state ran and controlled by the wealth created by exploiting labour.

reply to post by mee30


Oh no! Another person scared by communism! Oh no!

Because i come from a former communist country i can tell you that capitalism and democracy damaged my country in 23 years more than communism in 40 years.

Oh and by the way are you by any chance british or american?

Originally posted by mee30
Surely this could be done today quite easily no? Most of OWS are of the communist persuasion, so there are no shortage of people with the same ideology. In fact I know many people that do not profess to be communist but would agree that everyone should get paid the same etc...

That's one of the most ignorant paragraphs I have ever read on all of ATS.

...which is really saying something.

You will never understand communism, actually any other form of social/political/economical ideology, if you keep thinking that capitalist (the one that we live in, not the utopia one) values are mandatory or even present in other ideologies. It's like trying to use an old Linux OS expecting to be just like Windows. It's a poor metaphor, I know, but it's something like that. It works different and there's a lot of good explanations in this topic if you are willing to listen OP. You don't need to agree, but just listen and try to understand.

And for the record; I'm not communist or even socialist. I may flirt with some of the ideas, but if I have to say my political preferences I would say that I'm an social-democrat. I have a deep admiration for the Nordic countries. It's not perfect but, to this day from a social point of view, the most just and real welfare state I ever seem or study.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Drezden
It's unfortunate there is communist bashing here. However lets be realistic. Man in inherently flawed. Mix a flawed man with power and there is a very high chance of extreme corruption. Communism works as an idea, it may even work on a very small scale where leaders can be held accountable.

For large countries it just won't work. No political/economic system can stay pure when humans are running them. Capitalism doesn't work as intended either though, the power and human condition corrupts it. However I'd rather live with a corrupt democracy than a corrupt communist system.

That same argument relates more to capitalism than communism.

Capitalism is the system that perpetuates bad human traits by allowing a small minority of people to become far more wealthy than the majority, giving them the economic power to manipulate and control other people and the state, the government, the economy itself.

Communism IS democracy, real democracy. Not the false illusion of democracy we have now.

Money used as a form of control, artificial scarcity of resources, is what causes corruption, not worker ownership. If the whole country had a worker owned economy, the majority of corruption would disappear because they would be nothing to really corrupt. When we are free to produce what we need with no restrictions there would be nothing to gain by corrupting the system.

We do not live in a democracy, we live under an economic dictatorship. A global economic dictatorship. It only gives the illusion of liberty.

Communism/socialism is economic freedom. The state is not the real enemy it is the economic system we have now. Change the economic system and the state will change. The state we have is the result of the economic system we have, a state ran and controlled by the wealth created by exploiting labour.

edit on 11/17/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

Nope. Both are completely and utterly failed economic systems. Neither one is any more effective in producing a decent civilization than the other.

Read up on Utilitarianism and Jeremy Bentham (a contemporary of Adam Smith's).

Absolute Socialism requires that individuals sacrifice for the good of the many.
Absolute Capitalism requires that the many sacrifice for the good of the few.

...Utilitarianism thinks you are intelligent enough to be able to use both philosophies responsibly. It's the economics of the MIDDLE classes.

reply to post by sheepslayer247

There is really no point in trying to continue this discussion. While a few people have tried to give you information that addresses your OP, I guess you have not liked the answers and have changed the context of the question a few times throughout this thread.

Wow, you know what, I was all set to come here with a new angle but I'll get to that later...

What on earth are you going on about? The information provided did not answer the question, or rather did not answer it sufficiently... Please point out WHERE I have changed or moved the goal posts? A few times eh? Well should be super easy for you to find it then!

Why on earth are you so butthurt about getting the wrong end of the stick? I mean really?It is so strange...

Clearly, you are anti-Communism. That's fine and well within your right. All I would ask is that if you are going to be anti-Communism....at least know what Communism is and how it works. Otherwise you just look like a scared idiot that hates commies because of what they heard on the TV.

Clearly you have not read my comments or just do not understand english, which is okay as it may not be your main language... I do not think communism would work and I think it is very dangerous, BUT I am not against people trying it, in fact the point of this thread is to encourage it! GO OUT AND PROVE IT CAN WORK! You can do it TODAY... Get together with some friends and start a very small scale communistic business ( i will call it business but I totally understand what you're saying regarding that), grow it, have it provide for you! Become as self sufficient as possible! I would LOVE to see you try...

The stipulations I put forward were based on discussions I have had from many communists, it is the general consensus that I get from people... Even people that do not say they are communist... Anok has pointed out that there are different ideologies within communism. And funny enough I had pointed that out to HIM during our last discussion but anok went to great lengths to tell me that there is a specific communism is correct, and the one I am quoting is wrong... He brought up quote after quote regarding it. So I find it odd that he mention there are different ideologies in this thread lol.

Anyway to get back to what I was going to say.....

We are not going to agree here and you know what? That is fine and actually pretty cool. It would be boring if we were all the same right? So check this, instead of looking at what we don't agree on let us see if we can agree on something, okay?

Right, NO ideology should be FORCED upon people, do you agree?

Now I hope the answer to that is yes, if so we are doing great right? Now what is to stop us BOTH having what we want? I have no problem with non forced communism, I have no problem with any ideology that doesn't use force. So you try out the communism and I will try out the anarco capitalism (obviously as much as we can within the constraints of our current tyrannical system). Do you agree that we could do that?

Then eventually when we get rid of tyrannical states (which all of them are), we can both live side by side, not just capitalism and communism but all their sub groups and other completely different ideologies. As long as we all can agree on the one simple premise of do not initiate force we should get along fine I think and non of the other stuff really matters... does it?