A quick question for communists before bed...

Originally posted by mee30

That does sound like a fantastic idea but he would counter that there is no true communism and he is probably right there, even if he does ignore the fact that there is no true capitalism either. lol

Why can't we have a free market of philosophy though? Why do people always have to move when they disagree with the majority?

Well, the thing is, that he would be living in a society that he is not comfortable in. Please excuse this example, but it seems the most appropriate. How about a gay man living in the 1950's? He would have been totally out of his element. Even today some communities are not as accepting. So my advice would be to move to a community that accepts them. Overall the mental well being of the individual will improve. Isn't this what life is about? Living your dream? He wants communism and he should get to experience it.

reply to post by mee30


Well, most people who talk like the thread title around here think like that. You are either with them or against them attitude. Guess my impression from the title was skewed.

reply to post by elouina

Well, the thing is, that he would be living in a society that he is not comfortable in. Please excuse this example, but it seems the most appropriate. How about a gay man living in the 1950's? He would have been totally out of his element. Even today some communities are not as accepting. So my advice would be to move to a community that accepts them. Overall the mental well being of the individual will improve. Isn't this what life is about? Living your dream? He wants communism and he should get to experience it.

Well where your plan falls down is that what if nowhere accepts gays? Was there such a place in the 50s? I think to an extent gays of the 50s would of had a gay community all be in on the down low... There is nowhere that has communism, so how could he move there?

Lets put this another way... How about if martin luther king decided to take your advice and headed off to africa? Sometimes you need to stay and fight for what you believe in... I am not against people having communism, just as long as it is not FORCED upon me...

reply to post by mee30

Please show me what part I misunderstood? You do not know my understanding of communism! Do you?

I'll admit that you may have your own understanding of what Communism is, but that does not mean it is factually correct with ideology of Communism.

For example, you have asked about business' and markets in a Communist society, but fail to realize that there is no need for either one. Free enterprise and speculation-based markets have no place in a Communist society in which wealth is possessed equally, as is the responsibility to create it.

Look you can't just say all needs would be taken care of... What would fairies bring it all to us or what? I'm not being funny with you I am serious... I actually do think we can have a convo here unlike with the other chap...

I believe it would be quite easy to provide food, water and other basic human needs to every human on the planet if we lived in a society that cared about such things. Many resources are wasted on the trivial, while the vital are tossed aside.

It is not the fairies that are fantasy, it is the compassion of our fellow Man that is much harder to find.

Well at least YOU admit that and are not all "capitalists are sick and should die" lol

Capitalism has it's place, as does a socialist counterpart. But Communism is not it, in my opinion.

How do you feel about my idea? Free market of philosophy? Anything goes bar tyranny... No force can be used against anyone unless it is in self defense... Surely by doing that we would end up with the best philosophy no?

It's not a good idea. It may sound good to have a system as you described, but it allows for people with the power and resources to control those who have nothing. In our current system, our main problems are the most basic human needs and the people that control that....control our government.

It never has and never will work.

You make assumptions about what I know... Let me tell you, you are not saying anything that I have not heard before, in fact you have said little of anything...

I do not mean to offend. Judging by your statements about markets and communist business', it was easy for me to assume that you do not have a firm understanding of what Communism is. I apologize if I am wrong, but according to your comments, you are not familiar with Communism.

Let me just ask you... Do you see communism working without using force? If so would it require everyone to be like angels?

No. Communism alone will never work. But let me say that we are fortunate to live in a time that illustrates the fallacies in Capitalism without a social-responsibility aspect to counter it. We have to find the balance between Capitalism and Socialism before we can have a "perfect" society.

reply to post by rickymouse

Well, most people who talk like the thread title around here think like that. You are either with them or against them attitude. Guess my impression from the title was skewed.

Ahhhhh assumption, the mother of all.... lol. No biggy...

I don't think the title is bad, just posing a question to communists lol... The question is still, as of yet, not answered

Originally posted by mee30
So my question is simple... If communism is such a grand idea why haven't communists got together to run businesses? Have they? Like no-one owns the place of business and everybody is paid the same and there is no hierarchy etc... I would be interested in hearing examples if there are any...

Surely this could be done today quite easily no? Most of OWS are of the communist persuasion, so there are no shortage of people with the same ideology. In fact I know many people that do not profess to be communist but would agree that everyone should get paid the same etc...

Also if there is no hierarchy how would you divvy up the wages? How would you hire and fire? Would you use democracy/mob rule for everything? What if a bunch of people took a disliking to a particular colleague? They could just vote him/her out?

It sounds like an absolute nightmare!

Now that I have gone OT, time to jump back on track. What about the communes of the 1960's? They all worked the land and shared equally. And sold or bartered their excess produce. Without the benefit of a dictator. Are those still around? I have to take a peek around the net now.

Wouldn't this be similar to the communistic farms without a dictator getting some (actually most) off the top?

reply to post by mee30


Communism/socialism is worker ownership.

There are lots of examples of worker owned companies, even in America.

And workers who want to buy their company.

Chrysler Workers Urge Obama to Support Ownership Push

If more workers realised what was in their best interest this would spread.

It may not be the revolution’s dawn, but it’s certainly a glint in the darkness. On Monday, this country’s largest industrial labor union teamed up with the world’s largest worker-cooperative to present a plan that would put people to work in labor-driven enterprises that build worker power and communities, too.

Worker Ownership For the 21st Century?

All over the country, people—like the workers of Chicago’s New Era Windows—are building worker-owned cooperatives that root jobs in the communities that need them.

A New Era of Worker Ownership?

Shared ownership helps diversify rather than concentrate wealth – which is what we desperately need to do to revitalise our economy. It roots the value it generates in communities, keeping assets and resources from being transferred from local communities and low-wage employees to multinational corporations and their owners.

The key to global prosperity: worker ownership

Unless you are a capitalist owner, why would you be against this?

reply to post by sheepslayer247

I'll admit that you may have your own understanding of what Communism is, but that does not mean it is factually correct with ideology of Communism. For example, you have asked about business' and markets in a Communist society, but fail to realize that there is no need for either one. Free enterprise and speculation-based markets have no place in a Communist society in which wealth is possessed equally, as is the responsibility to create it.

" For example, you have asked about business' and markets in a Communist society" EHHHHH No I didn't at all, I was talking about starting up a communistic company within the society we have right now... But your assumptions (me not being educated in communism) are very common place amongst communists. "you don't know REAL communism" is thrown around a lot! This may surprise you but I have had these conversations many times...

But as you have gone there (outside the topic at hand) I'll have a little poke... Even without money and with everyone earning or having the same as everyone else you would still need to run a business, even if you called it something else! You would still need to organize workers and such, or would you just have people wandering into a workplace and getting on with it? Imagine if that is the emergency room! lmao...

I have given communism MUCH thought, and to be honest it is scary! For instance what would you do if someone DID horde/save up their stuff? I had a major set to with anok and he was pulling quotes left and right... These quotes were supposed to back up how good communism is and what REAL communism is. The stuff he put forward was disgusting, made me want to vomit...

The 2nd Plank of the Communist Manifesto is a Progressive Income Tax...so we are there already comrade!!!

The monkey's dead, the show is over - see yah!
They won - we lost!

Head for the redoubt!

Peace



Communist Manifesto

reply to post by ANOK


And here he is.... Later than I expected... Sorry anok we have been here and done this... You evade questions and just post ridiculous quote after ridiculous quote, not interested...

So can you show me one company that is not owned by anyone and has no hierarchy and they all get paid the same? Just one...

What you mention isn't that, is it?

I'm all for communists to get together and start their own business with the communistic principals in tact... I WANT to see that, can you show me one? That was the question in the OP.

reply to post by BABYBULL24


LOL That may well be true, but I will still fight on, no matter how futile it may be, lol...

reply to post by mee30


Systems changes are extremely difficult, generally they require blood letting and often are co-opted by specific interests that have no intention to share power.

I'm not a Communist, I'm a Anarcho-Communist (not the same, even if there are points of contact) but comply with the OP requirements, but not the label...

To date, the best-known examples of an anarchist communist society (i.e., established around the ideas as they exist today and achieving worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon), are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution.

This process of education and class organization, more than any single factor in Spain, produced the collectives. To the degree that the CNT-FAI (for the two organizations became fatally coupled after July 1936) exercised the major influence in an area, the collectives proved to be generally more durable, communist and resistant to Stalinist counterrevolution than other republican-held areas of Spain and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution (1917).

Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being crushed by the combined forces of Francoism (the regime that won the war), Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Second Spanish Republic itself.

During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend—through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine—anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

From Wikipedia's Anarchist communism

reply to post by mee30


people could spend less time on Facebook (in stead of face book, there would be trade book and the tube and focus on there trades. and if there was the barter system, im sure Ferrari could figure how to profit, why not throw gold in the mix and other precious metals, it has many uses, and can be used as a barter item that all around the world want. with everyone responsible for there own trades, it would make everyone responsible for the economy, not just the banks and the government. i just threw this idea out there originally for the sake of it, but know i believe we should start a new political ideal. Barterism

reply to post by mee30

EHHHHH No I didn't at all, I was talking about starting up a communistic company within the society we have right now...

Actually, you never said anything of the sort in the OP. Here is your quote:

So my question is simple... If communism is such a grand idea why haven't communists got together to run businesses? Have they? Like no-one owns the place of business and everybody is paid the same and there is no hierarchy etc... I would be interested in hearing examples if there are any...

It would help if you specified up-front that you wanted examples from within our current system.

But that does help illustrate my point. America, assuming you mean America, is not Communist and since Communism doesn't believe in free-trade.....there are no examples to provide.

Obviously, that is where the "misunderstanding" comes in to play.

Even without money and with everyone earning or having the same as everyone else you would still need to run a business

Please understand....there are no business' in Communism. Everything is owned by the people. No business' .....ever.

You would still need to organize workers and such, or would you just have people wandering into a workplace and getting on with it? Imagine if that is the emergency room! lmao...

That is where the state organizes and does it's job.

Originally posted by BABYBULL24
The 2nd Plank of the Communist Manifesto is a Progressive Income Tax...so we are there already comrade!!!

There is no such things as the "ten planks of communism". I have idea where that name even came from.

The Communist Manifesto is a critique of capitalism, it is not a description of communism.

The so called planks was the Marxist plan to move from capitalism to communism. It is not communism itself.

Marx wrote about what future communism could look like in the "Critique of the Gotha Program", not in the Commie Festo.

Just another example of out of context quotes that make no sense without the rest of the book. You should get a copy of the Festo and read it, then you will be a little more wiser maybe and not repeat disinformation.

From the back cover of my copy...

"It presents an analytical approach to the class struggle (historical and present) and the problems of capitalism, rather than a prediction of communism's potential future forms"

The Manifesto is about Marxism. Marxism is a political path to communism it is not communism itself. Communism and socialism exist outside of Marxism.

reply to post by mee30

Sure I have tried it...But I DIDN'T INHALE! LOLOLOL! Personally I need to be clear headed because of my JOBS and I really do not care for the feeling POT gives a person. As for Beer, Wine or Hard Liquor...I do drink Beer and I believe Alcohol is a VERY DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE TO IMBIBE! This is because of how a persons decision making is effected...still I think Responsible Drinking is fine.

The problem with POT is when it is MIXED with Alcohol or other Drugs. It is very intoxicating if smoked after a person has a few drinks and I have known many a friend who have fallen asleep at the wheel because of it.

POT has been DECRIMINALIZED in my state of MASS. Police cannot even ask for a persons LICENCE if that person is caught with less than AN OUNCE of POT. Thus COPS do not give out the $100 Tickets as my Cop Friends all say it is not worth the paperwork. Thus POT is basically LEGAL UP TO AN OUNCE IN MASS. The use of Medical Marijuana has just been made Legal.

Split Infinity

reply to post by Panic2k11

Systems changes are extremely difficult, generally they require blood letting and often are co-opted by specific interests that have no intention to share power. I'm not a Communist, I'm a Anarcho-Communist (not the same, even if there are points of contact) but comply with the OP requirements, but not the label...

So you are a communist then lol... anok will tell you all about that...

I agree though, regime change will not be easy...

Anyway what about the question that I posed in the OP? Why haven't communists got together to start up businesses and living the dream? If most of you moved to one state and obviously the communist companies with no hierarchy would run sell well and everyone would be living so well that everyone would want to join, no?

I just don't see why you can't get the ball rolling now? That is my point, so...????

reply to post by ANOK


Very well said and precisely my point. Most people have no understanding of Communism....and therefore the debate is pointless.

Originally posted by mee30

So can you show me one company that is not owned by anyone and has no hierarchy and they all get paid the same? Just one...

Why do you need to see that? There are no companies that are not owned by anyone, worker owned is worker owned.

There are many worker owned companies, you just haven't looked for them.

I'm all for communists to get together and start their own business with the communistic principals in tact... I WANT to see that, can you show me one? That was the question in the OP.

Didn't I do that in my post above?

But regardless if there wasn't any to show you what difference would that make? Why would that not make it a good idea?

BTW what do I ignore? And it's not my problem if you fail to grasp the point of the links I provide. If you don't like my posts then exorcise your right to ignore me, thank you.

Anok - i like you but there they are 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10...lol

Have no clue as I am not a anarcho commie or whatever but # 2 is up there - its not like # 7 or 8 its number 2 so the commies must like it?



Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all right of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.[14]