I will renounce my faith

reply to post by humphreysjim

It seems like you are the one treating atheism like a religion

No, I am afraid I don't see how you can deduce that BUT that is exactly what many of the American atheists do.

Personally I really could not care less and can't be bothered, nor have ant desire, to tackle people about their beliefs. People are free to believe or not as they wish. What they are not free to do is to attempt to force their views on others, or to ridicule the views of others.

reply to post by PuterMan


My views are 100% in line with yours.

Forcing beliefs upon people is wrong,

But what do you consider forcing beliefs?

I don't consider talking or handing out flyers or debating as "forcing beliefs",

I think of forced belief as more of a physical force, like the Crusaders of old and the Jihadists today....

reply to post by godlover25


Hey OP,

Fair enough if you feel these verses are being taken out of context, but I'm particularly interested in your interpretation of them. If I may ask, under what circumstances and in what context is it okay to be put to death for cursing one's parents? And when is it okay to beat servants with many blows? And why dismiss verses in the OT as if they weren't God's words?

Just trying to understand. Thanks.

reply to post by namine


I believe both the verses you just mentioned are allegorical, not literal,

The servant being beaten with many blows is talking about people who know the Gospel and refuse them getting more of a punishment in there hereafter, as opposed to people who did not know the Gospels not being punished as severely (or not at all) for something they did not know or understand.

And as I stated in OP and multiple people have stated since, you must know the context of Ancient Israel, Mosaic Laws and why they were set in place, and how Christ fulfilled certain aspects of the Law and supplemented the Law with the New Covenant.

Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you.

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by namine

 

I believe both the verses you just mentioned are allegorical, not literal,

The servant being beaten with many blows is talking about people who know the Gospel and refuse them getting more of a punishment in there hereafter, as opposed to people who did not know the Gospels not being punished as severely (or not at all) for something they did not know or understand.

And as I stated in OP and multiple people have stated since, you must know the context of Ancient Israel, Mosaic Laws and why they were set in place, and how Christ fulfilled certain aspects of the Law and supplemented the Law with the New Covenant.

Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened unto you.

Okay, so would it be fair to say you feel all instances, throughout the OT and NT, where violence is instructed are all metaphors and not to be taken literally?

What kind of punishment do you interpret "blows" to mean?

Originally posted by ManFromEurope

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
reply to post by ManFromEurope

 

I agree with the OP here although I would not have left out the OT. People do not understand the context they just quote any instance of violence, which does not equate to evil. Violence is the method but God is the only one who can judge and all of his judgments are righteous.

So.. Are you able to explain the context of this "kill every man who lies with a man like with a woman" - anti-homosexual thing? Care to explain?

Because this sounds like something a homophobic, but himself homosexual priest in old times would have written in the bible, if he could and no one looked at that moment. In my view, there is no incentive to kill someone just because he is a homosexual - right? Therefore, there must be more to this or the bible is stupidly wrong.

I answered this in another thread. This is my view I am not speaking for God here. God commanded people to be fruitful and multiply so his followers can fulfill their purpose. So that prophecies could come to pass. Kind of hard to multiply if you all embrace homosexuality, hard to have a messiah be born if the Jews had all become Homosexuals. Hard for God to raise up a nation when they all embrace homosexuality. God is a God of creating life. Homosexuality does not create life. God was also refining the people spiritually and separating their ways from the ways of the pagans and idolaters. The people of the OT lived in a time when medical and scientific knowledge was at best minimal so I'm sure there are hygienic reasons as well to also help those people along. To me this also explains the not eating pork and shellfish type rules from the OT.

Another thing I dont see mentioned very much but there are other sources that make mention that the nephilhim/giants engaged in homosexuality for whatever reason. Just throwing that out there. We dont have all the answers but it will be made known to us.

I am not saying anything against Homosexuals. I think Jesus would not have us condemn or put each other down any longer because we clearly could not follow the law without perverting it and allowing evil men to take control for their own benefit. I am merely giving a contextual reason for why it was that way. People are free to disagree or step in and show me where that is an erroneous explanation.

reply to post by namine


In the Mosaic Law, certain crimes / transgressions were known to be punishable by death / stoning to the Israelites,

An Israelite living in the Congregation and breaking the sabbath knew full well he could be stoned for his transgression,

It's the same as somebody living in the US or any developed nation today knows that killing a man for no reason is punishable by death,

So, in the Old Testament, violence was sometimes the punishment for certain crimes, so I suppose you could take certain verses literally, especially from Mosaic Law, but you have to have an understanding of Ancient Israel versus the Kingdom of Israel versus Exiled Israel versus 1st century Judaism versus the New Covenant

Anytime you see "violence" in the NT, it is allegorical for something - IE, when Jesus says to pluck out your eye instead of go to the fires of Gehenna, he did not literally condone plucking out your eye, he was trying to make a point about how serious sin is and using figurative language, just as we do today.

And the verse about being "beaten", let's break it down a little,

The verse in question is:

AV Lk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

Luke chapter 12 verse 47, it's speaking of, as I said, a man who knows the Lords will, yet does not perform it, being punished with many "blows" or "stripes",

The Greek word translated to blows means properly to flay or scourge, so I'd imagine the punishment spoken of has to do with severe lashing,

G1194 dero der'-o

a primary verb;

properly, to flay, i.e. (by implication) to scourge, or (by analogy) to thrash.


KJV: beat, smite.


The above translation is from the King James Version,

The Concordant Literal version translates the same verse as this: CLV Lk 12:47 "Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.



I hope this helps,

God bless

Originally posted by godlover25

It's the same as somebody living in the US or any developed nation today knows that killing a man for no reason is punishable by death,

Use of capital punishment by country.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by godlover25

 

"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10)

Matthew 15
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother and Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'

6 he is not to 'honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

Here, Jesus is clearly ticked that people aren't stoning rebelious kids anymore.


Luke 12:47

47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.

It was okay to beat your slave to death, as long as didn't suffer longer that 3 days.

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Swords don't kill people, people kill people!

edit on 14-11-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

WOW ....seriously that's what you are going to come with? some extremely out of context quotes? You realize that the curses parents thing is an allusion to the fact that sin = death and if you cant even honor your parents who raised you and cared for you then how can you possibly honor the Lord who is the creator of all life?

The slave quote you came with is a parable about people who do wrong but did not know the will of the father will be punished but less harshly but if you do wrong and you do know the will of the father you will be punished more harshly. He is talking about gentiles and non jews here. We are all slaves. Not even going to get into the 3 days thing because ITS ALL OVER THE BIBLE!

Luke 16:15 - And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

reply to post by godlover25


Matthew 15
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother and Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'

6 he is not to 'honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

You still haven't explained this scripture. Do you think that Jesus was against the death penalty? Didn't he say something about not one word of the law shall be changed?

reply to post by windword


Oh windword, windword, windword,

Ye foolish child,

Jeremias did well when he prophesied about you!

AV Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

AV Jer 5:22 Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand [for] the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?

AV Jer 5:23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.

The Lord bless your soul and forgive your trespasses,

I love you and our Lord loves you,

Grace and peace,

May the God of understanding grant you Wisdom,

Amen

reply to post by NihilistSanta


The soul we are speaking to has been given explanations multiple times,

But the soul of this one, "windword", is quite foolish,

Seeing this soul sees not, and hearing this soul is not hearing.

I pray our Father grants windword mercy and wisdom,

Amen

reply to post by godlover25


You didn't answer the question.

Did Jesus support the death penalty, required by the law, either Mosiac Law or Roman Law?

reply to post by windword


John 8

King James Version (KJV)

8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

John 8:7 - So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Christ fulfilled the law. He is saying that by the law we all deserve to be stoned to death only none of us are righteous enough to judge each other. That is Gods domain.

If you read that out of context though then you might think someone threw a stone at her when he was done talking

This is the equivalent of what is going on in this thread.

reply to post by godlover25


I kind of get what you mean with te Old Testament Jesus died for there sins and died for ours so they were forgiven and you said the debating is a sin and your debating so your kinder in sin right now, peace brother


Sorry forcing beliefs ( I don't consider talking or handing out flyers or debating as "forcing beliefs", ) debating is forcing beliefs

reply to post by birdyat101


I'm a disgraceful sinner, what can I say?

I need a Saviour,

read my signature.

reply to post by NihilistSanta


I love how Our Father used the both of us to answer windword with the same piece of Scripture,

God bless you brother,

Yours in Grace and Truth

with Love

Amen

reply to post by NihilistSanta


Remember Jesus in the wilderness,

Satan twisted scripture taken out of context to suit his own purposes several times,

Jesus rebuked Satan with correct interpretation of Scripture several times,

Satan fled.

Precisely what's happening here, as well.

reply to post by godlover25


So why was Jesus so upset that the weren't stoning rebellious youths?

It seems that there are a lot of contradictions in the words and actions of Jesus. Like when he despises the money changers and then gives a parable that curses the man for not giving his money to the money changers.

If Jesus wasn't in favor of the death penalty, why did he die by the death penalty? He obviously needed it for his mission.