I will renounce my faith

Well, that was a long and frustrating read.

I shudder to think what goes on in the mind of the OP. Must be a scary place, filled with scripture, norms rules thousands of years old, and most obviously of all, insecurities.


It didn't even matter from the beggining of the discussion, it never does with blind fanatics (of any description). You were out to toot your own horn, to wield the blade of "I know it all, and any other interpretation is wrong" to call people who differed God Haters, vile, liars and so on...

Dear godlover25

There was no way to ever win this discussion, with you changing the rules and modifyng the arena (the context and interpretation you give of your own holy book) to your will. You cannot expect any level of constructive conversation within those terms. The only goal was to reaffirm yourself whatever fever (or Overdosed...)-related vision you had.

Which strangely enough, were the only words you wrote that didn't make me cringe. So you had an experience, which many (like me) could try to give a non-divine explanation. But it's yours, and if true, yours to hold close. Fine.

I wonder though, did the voice ever specify what Divine being he was?

Maybe Zeus, or Odin reached out, and you are barking up the wrong tree.

Imagine that.



Believe what you will friend, and respect the will of others.

Although, I do hope my children never encounter someone like you, who scares them into faith.

Cheers.

P.S Not like anyone's gonna read this two years later. Who cares

For whatever reason, the OP has decided to run two very similar threads. I can think of a possible reason, but still, it is unusual. I hope I will have your permission to repost something I wrote in the other thread. My hope is that it will focus and clarify the discussion. It was originally written to Akragon, a poster I respect. He has a powerful mind, more often than not we come to different conclusions, but he is a valuable poster.

Nice to see your smiling face again. I appreciate you questing attitude, intellect, love of logic, and honesty. It is such a pleasant relief from the trend of this thread.

But I have to confess to a certain confusion. You know what the OP is asking for, a verse commanding modern western Christians to kill, rape, pillage, and plunder.

You point out, with honesty and directness not found among many:

"Going by the NEW a verse can not be found obviously... but the evidence is abundant in the OLD..."

OK, fine. We've come to the point where the anti-OP position is that there are many verses in the Old Testament that command modern, western Christians to rape, pillage, kill and plunder.

To be honest that makes my eyebrows go up. (And, if you knew my eyebrows, you would know that that is a sight worth seeing.) Am I correct in saying your position, and that of others, is "There are verses in the OT that command those terrible things IF you assume that the instructions God gave to one group of people 3,000 years ago are the same instructions we are to follow today."

That's an interesting position. Now then, you have two tasks instead of one. You have to find a verse commanding death, etc. AND you have to show that it applies to modern western Christians. Can you? I suppose it is possible, as some have, to just assert it with no proof. The "logical" argument being used has at least one massive hole.

It seems to be:

1.) God's nature doesn't change.
2.) God told the ancient Israelites to smite a country.
3.) Therefore, God is commanding us to smite countries.

Dear Akragon, if someone presented that to you, I would hope you would at least criticize the logic, no matter how much you agreed with the position.

(The corollary to that is that God is telling all people to smite countries and that God is demanding a universal war to the last man. You admit that the New Testament says nothing of the kind. Therefore, the OT commands ARE different than the NT commands, therefore the position that you are proposing [That God's instructions don't change] has been shown to be false, before you even try to defend it. "Not as wide as a church door, nor deep as a well, but 'twill serve.") (Further, if the claim is that God is only giving instructions to His followers, once again you must admit that God is giving different instructions to different groups of people, followers v. non-followers.)

With respect,
Charles1952

Will someone care to discuss this with me?

a reply to: charles1952

I wouldn't know how to discuss that with you. I'm not exactly sure of your position.

I agree with what Charles1952 said. Different instructions to different groups of people, as well as a Deity that changes it's mind and so on and so forth, is...quaint.

Which I mean, it's fine if anyone believes in it, as they have the right to do so. As long as they don't bother other people with it, in any way or form.

To me, with all due respect, it all sounds quite a bit like this Christian God character is a piece of work.

Cheers.

a reply to: charles1952

The only way to make an argument that god has given direction to modern believers to do any sort of damage to another human being is to accept that they are still bound by ot laws. Since that isn't the case in modern christians there honestly is no argument to be made.

When I read the ot and see the things that god has told man to do in various instances it simply makes me wonder why. What purpose does it serve? The commands to kill men, women, children and animals leaves me with a gaping hole as to its purpose. Sacrifices are another thing that makes no sense. Why require the best foods and animals be presented instead of allowing people to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Creating a entire race of beings to simply say screw this I'm going to kill everyone on the planet with a flood because you don't follow my directions and live your lives the way I intended. It didn't seem like there was much convert or die back then it was simply die. That in stark contrast to the overall message in the nt.

That brings me to very few options for me to reconcile what I read. One being the 2 books are no more truthful than any mythical story I can find throughout history. Another would be that the the books themselves are corrupted. If they are corrupted that throws a very dim view on a god that can't maintain his own story throughout the ages. It could mean it's all true and we just don't understand it or god which I don't personally accept but who knows.

In revelation it speaks of the final war. God/jesus and the beast fight it out for the last time. Again I ask, why? More bloodshed, to what end? Is it necessary for more fighting and blood to be spilled over a supposed all powerful being? No sense to me whatsoever.

My point, if I actually had one when I started rambling, is that this argument is solely dependent on a persons interpretation of the scripture. If you feel your bound by ot law then you need to gather some rocks and start killing people. If you don't then there is no argument.