Are You Buying The Anti-Muslim Propaganda?

reply to post by WarminIndy

This man says that Muslims have never offended anyone. Is this a denial of truth? This man says that Muslims defend the Copts in Egypt. Really? Then why were Copts crucified?

I'm not sure why you - or anyone - ever places as much importance as they do on random interviews with one person here - one person there...

If this man says Muslims have never offended anyone (I'm not going to watch the video - so I'm taking your word for it) so what?

As for denial of truth - or not:

“I am an Egyptian Coptic Orthodox, i.e. Egyptian Christian, my mother and members of my family live within a stone throw from the presidential palace. I talk to my mother every other day. If something like what you mentioned in your article took place, she [would] be the first one to know.”)

www.middleeastexperience.com...

Egypt’s “crucifixion” hoax becomes an instant Internet myth

Have you heard the one about how Christians are being nailed up on crucifixes and left to die in front of the Egyptian presidential place?

It’s a story worth dissecting — not because it’s true (it isn’t), but because it is a textbook example of how the Internet, once thought to be the perfect medium of truth-seeking, has been co-opted by culture warriors as a weapon to fire up the naïve masses with lies and urban legends.

fullcomment.nationalpost.com...

You are promoting passive complicity.

If I'm promoting anything, it's tolerance, pacifism and rational thought

Your point is that the leadership is to blame. My point is that passive complicity is to blame because those leaders can be removed.

My point is not to blame leadership - my point was to demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about

You only argue 'no quarter'. It's not reasonable - it doesn't involve thinking - only fear, hostility and bigotry

here's something for you WarminIndy: religion.blogs.cnn.com...
I'm not a Christian - but that doesn't mean that I can't find common ground with them - or with anyone for that matter. Me and this guy are simpatico

I have known people affected by the holocaust. I have known some Muslims - very well

These experiences and relationships don't make either of us experts - on anything

reply to post by WarminIndy


Also, WarminIndy - not for nothing:

I intend this thread to be a discussion about how this is going to play out, whether you think you are falling for the propaganda (whoever is responsible) and what you plan to do about it. Please leave your opinions of religious groups at the door, it's not welcome in this discussion.

but, you and I (in addition to many others) have completely blown off the OP

So, in a last ditch effort to respect the OP's request - I'm going to say something about propaganda: if you want people to consider what you're saying - you have to have an honest back and forth. If all you do is ignore what's actually being said, refuse to reply directly to what's being said, then dump videos here and there in an effort to lead people's thinking - it becomes very clear very fast that the only reason you're hear is to propagandize. You're not here for an honest debate on any subject - and I'm not sure what distinguishes you or others doing what you do from any of the other groups that have recently been shown the door here at ATS

So then - how do you feel about what the OP is asking?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Also, WarminIndy - not for nothing:

I intend this thread to be a discussion about how this is going to play out, whether you think you are falling for the propaganda (whoever is responsible) and what you plan to do about it. Please leave your opinions of religious groups at the door, it's not welcome in this discussion.

but, you and I (in addition to many others) have completely blown off the OP

So, in a last ditch effort to respect the OP's request - I'm going to say something about propaganda: if you want people to consider what you're saying - you have to have an honest back and forth. If all you do is ignore what's actually being said, refuse to reply directly to what's being said, then dump videos here and there in an effort to lead people's thinking - it becomes very clear very fast that the only reason you're hear is to propagandize. You're not here for an honest debate on any subject - and I'm not sure what distinguishes you or others doing what you do from any of the other groups that have recently been shown the door here at ATS

So then - how do you feel about what the OP is asking?

Thank you.
I have pretty much given up on this thread, because 90% of the posts in response have been nothing but more of the same mud-slinging.

At least I know that some people do get it

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by WarminIndy

edit on 9/23/2012 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)

edit on 9/23/2012 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)

How many violations against human rights is enough to call it a problem? One person, two, three? You would say that lynching blacks is wrong. I agree, it is evil to lynch anyone. But how many does it take until you see it as a problem?

Now will you bring out the human rights violations at Gitmo? Yes, I agree it is an atrocity and wrong. But let me ask you this, is it not an atrocity against apostates and women in Islam, are their human rights not to be protected? You say neither of us are experts, but does it take an expert to know when human rights are violated?



When you see this little girl crying, will you look the other way? That is passive complicity of violation of her human rights. Was this little girl a Christian or Jew and was she forced to marry a Christian or Jew? No, she is muslim and the husband was muslim. If you can't watch this little girl crying and then not ask your muslim friends to see it, you are passively complicit. Do you get that understanding?

No, your muslim friends say "oh, that is not what we believe, those OTHER muslims are doing that". What other muslims? The uncivilized ones? Your friends are civilized, so why can't they protest this? There is no such thing as "other muslim".



How many does it take to be called a problem?

Originally posted by jacktorrance
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

I typically really enjoy your posts, this one is no different.

I am seeing the divide more and more and to be honest it makes me both sad and I'll admit it, afraid.

Just last night I was at a homecoming football game in my county. These kids (I'm talking a 4 year old and 5 year old) were singing Jeff Dunham's "Jingle Bombs" song. This leads to a conversation among the adults nearby (you know, the people supposed to be setting an example) about his Achmed the Dead Terrorist skits, and a group laugh about how funny it is.

This comes after hearing and reading almost daily about how great it would be if all of them went the way of Achmed. (Dead.) And no, they aren't just talking about the "extremist" or the "terrorists". They're talking about any and all Muslims. Some that I know personally aren't even that picky- simply being brown suffices in many cases.

I know that not everyone thinks like that, but it feels like the growing majority do. There is tension in places that I didn't feel before. People seem to be on edge, whether due to politics, the Innocence of Muslims film, 2012 doomsday, the economy. You name it. It feels like something is about to go down, and there are going to be way too many willing participants.

Thank you for reading the post and understanding it.

This is what I'm talking about - the rise in tensions between ethnic, racial and religious groups in our nations.

I'm afraid to say it again, but it seems that even this thread has attracted plenty of those who have most definitely swallowed the propaganda. I fear that this kind of ignorance is not confined to places like ATS. This is spreading throughout society, and far right groups are feeding it, and benefiting from it.

A few years ago I really feared that we might see a far right party taking power in my country. And although that fear didn't last too long, it is now returning.

Idiots are being polarized, extremist groups on both sides are feeding it and growing. That is what this thread is supposed to be about, but the majority are using it as their personal bigoted soapbox spreading the same BS propaganda and taglines we're supposed to be debating objectively.

reply to post by detachedindividual

Thank you for reading the post and understanding it.

This is what I'm talking about - the rise in tensions between ethnic, racial and religious groups in our nations.

I'm afraid to say it again, but it seems that even this thread has attracted plenty of those who have most definitely swallowed the propaganda. I fear that this kind of ignorance is not confined to places like ATS. This is spreading throughout society, and far right groups are feeding it, and benefiting from it.

A few years ago I really feared that we might see a far right party taking power in my country. And although that fear didn't last too long, it is now returning.

Idiots are being polarized, extremist groups on both sides are feeding it and growing. That is what this thread is supposed to be about, but the majority are using it as their personal bigoted soapbox spreading the same BS propaganda and taglines we're supposed to be debating objectively.

You're welcome.

After reading your opening post, I thought your thread was going to be a breath of fresh air. It wasn't asking for the same old song and dance as many of the other threads dominating the sites I check throughout the day.

I too, feel a bit of fear rising up in me, and not the fear of Islam. The fear that a vast majority of Americans, my friends and family, my community, are turning more and more aggressive towards people that are simply different. Whether the color of their skin, their wardrobe, or their language - if it's different, it's a threat. It feels like Communist propaganda for our generation, and not only are people buying into it, they're *happily* buying into it.

Unfortunately, like you said, many people came here and didn't read (or didn't care about) what you were asking. I hate that it degenerated to only 11 pages, mostly filled with hateful rhetoric, when it could have been a very thought provoking discussion.

Originally posted by jacktorrance
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

I too, feel a bit of fear rising up in me, and not the fear of Islam. The fear that a vast majority of Americans, my friends and family, my community, are turning more and more aggressive towards people that are simply different. Whether the color of their skin, their wardrobe, or their language - if it's different, it's a threat. It feels like Communist propaganda for our generation, and not only are people buying into it, they're *happily* buying into it.

Unfortunately, like you said, many people came here and didn't read (or didn't care about) what you were asking. I hate that it degenerated to only 11 pages, mostly filled with hateful rhetoric, when it could have been a very thought provoking discussion.

I hope you realize that I am addressing solely the ideology of Islam itself. Muslim is a person submitted to the religion of Islam by belief in the shahada, accepting in Allah and his Apostle. Muslims are white, black, Hispanic, Asian and everything else. I did not imply they were only middle-Eastern.

While we are at it, can you define for us just exactly what Islamic ideology is. Is it truly the religion of peace? Certainly not and was never called that in Mohammed's time. Islam means submission. But that asks then, "submitted to what?" Are you submitted to the religion that says there is no compulsion in religion, but then forces people to remain in the religion? How is that not compulsion? But then you say "what about those who converted willingly?" I will ask this, were they submitted willingly before or after reading the Quran?

Because the reading of the Quran is not required for conversion, it is not legitimizing itself because that convert really has nothing to understand what the Quran requires of them once becoming a Muslim. Reading the Quran is required after conversion, and that reading must be done in Arabic, a language which no non-Arab speaker can do.

And you know nothing about Communism or Communist propaganda. In fact, Communism was inclusive of the Jews at a time when Jews were persecuted all over Europe. This ended the pogroms against the Jews. In Communism, everyone was equal in the State, even those countries that became part of the USSR, but are now independent Islamic countries such as Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kahzakstan. Those are only three, but when those countries gained independence, they are Islamic.

Your idea that we think only Arabs are Muslim and we do not like Arabs, that is a completely baseless charge. It is to the ideology of Islam itself that I address, and ask you, as well, to address it. Islam is a political movement, not only a religious one. It is cultural also. For you to think Islam is not a political entity, then you are being very naive.

Have you chosen to classify yourself as a dhimmi? Do you intend on paying the jizyah tax if it is required? These are things determined for you under Sharia law. A good source for understanding Sharia law is found in the book Reliance of the Traveler published 1994 by Amana Publications. This is an Islamic book written by Islamic lawyers. I challenge you to go read it.

You have proven that it is impossible to separate being Muslim from Islam. Therefore, if the identity of a Muslim is found solely within the framework of Islam, then it is impossible to separate the ideology of Islam from them.

You might take the Muslim out of an Islamic country, but you can't take the Islam out of him. Either she is Muslim, with all the ideology attached, or he is not Muslim and can denounce Islam. There is no such thing as a non-Islamic Muslim.

While Muslims themselves fight each other over what a Muslim is, at the end of the day they all embrace Islam. Because Islam is an ideology. And if it is an ideology, then it must be addressed if the ideology promotes genocide and human rights violations. I guess you would not mind then if I inserted words for you like this "This thread is being unfair to Germans because not all Germans are Nazi, and your hatred of Germans is obvious. Leave the Germans alone, they are just different even though they don't mind their neighbors being Nazi".

Did that sound pleasant? I am sure it didn't. But your point is baseless, we know that Muslims are not all one color or come from the same place. So then, tell me why you believe Islam is an acceptable ideology, because it is Islam you are defending.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Thank you for your reply.

I do want you to know that I was not speaking directly to you, at you, or even about you personally. I was talking about my personal experiences with people in my own home town, people that I go to school with, and people that I meet on a day to day basis. Living in the Bible belt in Southern US, many of these people have very backwards ideas on a lot of issues.

Most of them still believe that races should not mix, gay marriage will somehow disrupt their own heterosexual marriage, divorce should not happen and you can (and will) be kicked out of church if you go through a divorce (as in the case of my own mother who was in an incredibly abusive marriage), etc.

You have proven that it is impossible to separate being Muslim from Islam. Therefore, if the identity of a Muslim is found solely within the framework of Islam, then it is impossible to separate the ideology of Islam from them.

I have not done that. The people I speak to daily have done that. That is what my post was about. They are the same people that assume anyone from Mexico is here illegally. They are people that simply judge by the color of someones skin or the clothes they are wearing. Unfortunately, a turban and robe makes someone a terrorist by many people's definition. I do not see it that way. There are many non-violent Muslims despite following Islam, just as there are many non-violent Christians, despite the Bible offering sometimes violent ends to sinners.

Adulterers should be put to death. Homosexuals and those that practice immoral sexual acts should be put to death. God himself struck down Judah's son for spilling his seed and refusing to give Tamar a child.

Now, granted, I know that the Bible and the Koran are two different things, but I will say I don't personally know much about the Koran. All I know is what I have heard and it's hard for me to decipher between what is absolute bunk and fear mongering and what is legitimate. I'm not saying Islam is perfect, nor am I condoning murder in the name of Islam (or any religion) but that's the problem here. There have been numerous instances of Christians that have killed in the name of God. I believe it was just last year that a fundamentalist Christian couple beat their daughter to death because they thought God wanted them too. Homosexuals have been killed because they are an "abomination", and it speaks of the blood being on their heads in the Bible. Not to mention the Crusades, and witch hunts.

And murder is just one aspect of it. People are shunned, condemned and stripped of basic civil rights because of the Bible. Westboro Baptist Church is one example. No remorse when others, especially those of different ideologies, die. And according to Fred Phelps Jr, once his father dies, the group will not be afraid to act out in a more physical manner.

Fred Phelps Jr even tweeted after the Sikh temple shooting (which is considered an act of terrorism) "Beautiful work of an angry God who told Wisconsin to keep their filthy hands off his people (WBC)! #godsenttheshooter! " God sent the shooter? All because they didn't get a warm welcome when they went to Wisconsin to preach their hate filled rhetoric.

That is what I mean. They are extremist. Does WBC accurately represent all Christians? No. Not by any means. Does a small group of Islamic terrorist accurately represent all Muslims. No. Yet they are somehow lumped in together - by the people that I know personally.

What I mean by propaganda is the discussion of Sharia law taking over our country, in some threads (but not this one, yet) accusing Obama of being a Muslim and ushering Islamic extremist into key parts of government for a takeover. (My own grandmother truly believes this.) That is what I mean. It is baseless, and does nothing but build tension, scare people, and put people on edge.

That is what this entire discussion was supposed to be about.

reply to post by jacktorrance


And to add, I am not defending anyone killing the name of their chosen god. I am not defending any extremist Islamic group. I am not defending actual terrorist. But I am also not going to condemn someone for following a certain faith, when they may be an incredibly non-violent, friendly person, who doesn't particularly follow all of the teachings of Islam, but use it as a basis for their faith. (Acknowledging Muhammad as their prophet, etc.)

Most people who consider themselves Christians do not follow all the teachings of the Bible either, and just because Jesus taught love, doesn't mean the Bible is one big love fest.

But thank you for the discussion. I do enjoy hearing things from another point of view .I feel like it expands my knowledge and ability to think for myself. That's why I love ATS!